Women as pastors question

[sdowney717]

Judgment on Judah and Jerusalem

Isaiah 3

12 As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths.”

Women rule over them shame shame God says.
The women who rule over them are the women who lead them , causing them to err. Which then causes them to walk onto crooked paths. Walking in ways that where not ordained of God.

This prohibition against women rulers goes all the way back to the beginning in Gen where God told Eve that men would rule over her.
Satan always goes against God. Satan loves women ruling over men teaching men from positions of authority. God however hates that and already pronounced His decision on this matter.

Eve failed the test of discernment over evil influence and therefore I allow no women to teach or have authority over a man.

In fact they should be learning in silence. This means no talking when the male pastor is teaching them.

11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Having women ruling over men with teaching authority also is disrespecting the word of God.


For behold, the Lord, the Lord of hosts,
Takes away from Jerusalem and from Judah
The stock and the store,
The whole supply of bread and the whole supply of water;
2 The mighty man and the man of war,
The judge and the prophet,
And the diviner and the elder;
3 The captain of fifty and the honorable man,
The counselor and the skillful artisan,
And the expert enchanter.
4 “I will give children to be their princes,
And babes shall rule over them.
5 The people will be oppressed,
Every one by another and every one by his neighbor;
The child will be insolent toward the elder,
And the base toward the honorable.”
6 When a man takes hold of his brother
In the house of his father, saying,
“You have clothing;
You be our ruler,
And let these ruins be under your power,”[a]
7 In that day he will protest, saying,
“I cannot cure your ills,
For in my house is neither food nor clothing;
Do not make me a ruler of the people.”
8 For Jerusalem stumbled,
And Judah is fallen,
Because their tongue and their doings
Are against the Lord,
To provoke the eyes of His glory.
9 The look on their countenance witnesses against them,
And they declare their sin as Sodom;
They do not hide it.
Woe to their soul!
For they have brought evil upon themselves.
10 “Say to the righteous that it shall be well with them,
For they shall eat the fruit of their doings.
11 Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him,
For the reward of his hands shall be given him.
12 As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths.”

 

[Inkachu]

There were numerous females in the NT who were pastors of churches.

I'm not being sarcastic when I say this, but can you please list the verses that refer to these women? You said "numerous" so I'm assuming you have a long list of Scriptures lined up to support your claim? Like I said earlier, I'll gladly be proven wrong, but I've yet to see any Scripture that clearly states a woman was a pastor (not a deacon/ess, not a prophetess, not a disciple, but a church leader specifically, in charge of a congregation of men and women).

 

[znr]

lol

No, you're not trolling.

Judgment on Judah and Jerusalem

Isaiah 3

12 As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths.”

Women rule over them shame shame God says.
The women who rule over them are the women who lead them , causing them to err. Which then causes them to walk onto crooked paths. Walking in ways that where not ordained of God.

This prohibition against women rulers goes all the way back to the beginning in Gen where God told Eve that men would rule over her.
Satan always goes against God. Satan loves women ruling over men teaching men from positions of authority. God however hates that and already pronounced His decision on this matter.

Eve failed the test of discernment over evil influence and therefore I allow no women to teach or have authority over a man.

In fact they should be learning in silence. This means no talking when the male pastor is teaching them.

11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Having women ruling over men with teaching authority also is disrespecting the word of God.


For behold, the Lord, the Lord of hosts,
Takes away from Jerusalem and from Judah
The stock and the store,
The whole supply of bread and the whole supply of water;
2 The mighty man and the man of war,
The judge and the prophet,
And the diviner and the elder;
3 The captain of fifty and the honorable man,
The counselor and the skillful artisan,
And the expert enchanter.
4 “I will give children to be their princes,
And babes shall rule over them.
5 The people will be oppressed,
Every one by another and every one by his neighbor;
The child will be insolent toward the elder,
And the base toward the honorable.”
6 When a man takes hold of his brother
In the house of his father, saying,
“You have clothing;
You be our ruler,
And let these ruins be under your power,”[a]
7 In that day he will protest, saying,
“I cannot cure your ills,
For in my house is neither food nor clothing;
Do not make me a ruler of the people.”
8 For Jerusalem stumbled,
And Judah is fallen,
Because their tongue and their doings
Are against the Lord,
To provoke the eyes of His glory.
9 The look on their countenance witnesses against them,
And they declare their sin as Sodom;
They do not hide it.
Woe to their soul!
For they have brought evil upon themselves.
10 “Say to the righteous that it shall be well with them,
For they shall eat the fruit of their doings.
11 Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him,
For the reward of his hands shall be given him.
12 As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths.”

 

[Johnnz]

Judgment on Judah and Jerusalem

Women rule over them shame shame God says.
The women who rule over them are the women who lead them , causing them to err. Which then causes them to walk onto crooked paths. Walking in ways that where not ordained of God.

This prohibition against women rulers goes all the way back to the beginning in Gen where God told Eve that men would rule over her.
Satan always goes against God. Satan loves women ruling over men teaching men from positions of authority. God however hates that and already pronounced His decision on this matter.

Eve failed the test of discernment over evil influence and therefore I allow no women to teach or have authority over a man.

In fact they should be learning in silence. This means no talking when the male pastor is teaching them.

Addressing each paragraph above in turn.

Wrong. Israel's sins meant exile was imminent. Commonly any healthy male of fighting age was deported along with the country's leaders. Small numbers of poor people would be left. Often occupying people impregnated the women so as to dilute national identity and hence risk of rebellion. That's where the Samaritans began. There is not the slightest suggestion in the text that poor quality female leadership was the problem, In fact it was male leadership that was responsible for leading Israel astray - read Kings

Male rule was a consequence of sin. That very pronouncement implies men did not rule over women prior to the Fall. In addition, Jesus began the process of the restoration of Eden and we are to continue in that task. That's what the kingdom of God is all about, God's reign restored to earth. Also the Hebrew text suggests that women would now strive with men. Relationships would unravel because of sin. We are not to live as if Jesus' salvation doe snot affect all relationships. Paul understood that when he wrote that all divisions - race. gender and status no longer applied amongst God's people.

Both failed. And, if Eve is so much to blame why is humanity's fallenness attributed to Adam, not Eve?

It's impolite for any person to talk when another is speaking, male or female.

John
NZ

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

Anyone who personally attacks Paul as being sexist has just strayed away from the faith that says that "the bible is Gods word" to "The bible is man's word..." be careful... The Bible IS the infallible word of God.

JESUS is GOD. JESUS's words are the infallible word of God, as HE IS GOD, JESUS IS GOD THE FATHER.

paul, however, murdered Christians, persecuted Jesus Himself, insulted Jesus's long hair, had about 6 quotes advocating for heinous slavery, another 6 or so anti-women calling them supposedly inferior, and claiming "he's" the father which is blasphemy because JESUS is the father, and the only one to be called father is Jesus. "Neither be ye called masters, for their is ONE master, CHRIST" and "You cannot serve two masters, you will either love one, or hate the other, you cannot serve both God and mammon."

Paul is anti-Jesus who is God. Everything he said is against Him. He said the homeless should starve (who he insulted as vagabonds e.g., in one of his anti-poor hatred, "let them die" spiels) and those who are poor starve and that is 100% AGAINST WHAT JESUS, WHO IS GOD, SAID.

"
20The young man said to Him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said to him, If you will be perfect, go and sell that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
Jesus's, God's words, Matthew 19:21

"Give to him that asks you, and from him that would borrow of you turn not away."
Jesus's, God's words, Matthew 5:42

"But when you give a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:

14And you shall be blessed; for they cannot recompense you: for you shall be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. "

Jesus's, God's words, Luke 14:13


Not to mention, that paul's words were used to massacre Jewish people right before the Bubonic Plague (Yersenia pestis). They used paul to kill them because in no way could they use Jesus's, God's words to do it because He is against it

Whenever anyone does some horrible crime against humanity, it seems like they turn to paul and away from JESUS, who is God... hence why so many people died like the Jewish people.


Paul is evil. JESUS WHO IS GOD IS THE ALMIGHTY LEADER AND NUMBER ONE. ONLY HE BRINGS LIGHT TO THE WORLD

"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of LIFE."
Jesus's, God's words, John 8:12


So don't be tricked, it is JESUS to be turned to because paul murdered Christians and persecuted Jesus and many have died needlessly because people turn their backs on JESUS who is God and turn to someone else.... wrong

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Jesus's, God's words, Matthew 5:19

"If through MY LIE....<h3 align="center">why am I still being condemned as a sinner?"

paul: romans 3:7


Jesus, God's words Mark 10:19

"Do not defraud"


" But when SAUL had come to Jerusalem HE tried to join the disciples; but they were ALL AFRAID OF HIM AND DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HE WAS A DISCIPLE "
(Acts 9:26).



Paul is horrible, murdering Christians and lying. Advocating for crimes against humanity like slavery, letting the poor and sick die, making women inferior, and having his words used to massacre Jews before the Bubonic Plague and likely afterwards as well, ALL against Jesus's, God's words and PERFECT sinless example set for humankind to follow.


I FOLLOW JESUS WHO IS GOD ALONE


</h3>

 

[Johnnz]

What a lot of nonsense - not even the slightest understanding of Paul.

John
NZ

 

[Assyrian]

It didn't. Chalcedon didn't decide to ordain women as deacons.

But since you were mistaken and Chalcedon didn't do that or recognize anyone else doing it, the point is moot.

So, what did Chalcedon mean when it said:

15. No woman under forty years of age is to be ordained a deacon, and then only after close scrutiny. If after receiving ordination and spending some time in the ministry she despises God’s grace and gets married, such a person is to be anathematised along with her spouse.​

 

[Johnnz]

So, what did Chalcedon mean when it said:

15. No woman under forty years of age is to be ordained a deacon, and then only after close scrutiny. If after receiving ordination and spending some time in the ministry she despises God’s grace and gets married, such a person is to be anathematised along with her spouse.​

​

The quote reveals some non biblical concepts, notably celibate ministry, marriage seen as a lesser status, and there is no age set out in Scripture as a criteria for having such a role.

John
NZ

 

[Assyrian]

[/indent]The quote reveals some non biblical concepts, notably celibate ministry, marriage seen as a lesser status, and there is no age set out in Scripture as a criteria for having such a role.

John
NZ

I agree we see some non biblical concepts creeping in here, the concept of ordination and the whole distinction between ordained clergy and laity. But the marriage issue with women deacons sound like it comes from:
1Tim 5:9 Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband,
10 and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work.
11 But refuse to enroll younger widows, for when their passions draw them away from Christ, they desire to marry
12 and so incur condemnation for having abandoned their former faith.
Paul went for over 60 rather than Chalcedon's 40. Verse 12 is disturbing, seeming to suggest that a widow remarrying is abandoning her faith, but the wording in Greek atheteo speaks of breaking an oath, suggesting the being enrolled involved a pledge not to remarry. Again, pretty disturbing and odd that the first suggestion of a vow of celibacy come in the same letter as Paul's warning 1Tim 4:1 some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, ... 3 who forbid marriage.

 

[Albion]

So, what did Chalcedon mean when it said:

15. No woman under forty years of age is to be ordained a deacon, and then only after close scrutiny. If after receiving ordination and spending some time in the ministry she despises God’s grace and gets married, such a person is to be anathematised along with her spouse.
​

It means that this layperson's position involves a laying on of hands as the candidate is "set aside" for the performance of her responsibilities--which are detailed in the part you didn't reprint here and which contrasts the male deacon's position with the female deaconesses's duties. This is often referred to an an "ordination," but in order to avoid confusion, it is also common to say that deacons are ordered, presbyters ordained, and bishops consecrated.

 

[sdowney717]

Addressing each paragraph above in turn.

Wrong. Israel's sins meant exile was imminent. Commonly any healthy male of fighting age was deported along with the country's leaders. Small numbers of poor people would be left. Often occupying people impregnated the women so as to dilute national identity and hence risk of rebellion. That's where the Samaritans began. There is not the slightest suggestion in the text that poor quality female leadership was the problem, In fact it was male leadership that was responsible for leading Israel astray - read Kings

Male rule was a consequence of sin. That very pronouncement implies men did not rule over women prior to the Fall. In addition, Jesus began the process of the restoration of Eden and we are to continue in that task. That's what the kingdom of God is all about, God's reign restored to earth. Also the Hebrew text suggests that women would now strive with men. Relationships would unravel because of sin. We are not to live as if Jesus' salvation doe snot affect all relationships. Paul understood that when he wrote that all divisions - race. gender and status no longer applied amongst God's people.

Both failed. And, if Eve is so much to blame why is humanity's fallenness attributed to Adam, not Eve?

It's impolite for any person to talk when another is speaking, male or female.

John
NZ

You're still ignoring and therefore twisting the meaning of what Paul wrote. If you think Paul was inspired by God, then you should pay attention to what Paul wrote and be obedient.

Paul makes the spiritual point the Eve was deceived, Adam chose. This point is not subtle and quite different in nature as to the mode of operation. This means the women are by their nature of being the 'weaker vessel' (Peter) and created last, are going to be more attractive to Satan as a way of attack. Satan knew he could not deceive Adam somehow, so Satan worked his evil by way of using the women!

And what about the sons of God coming into the daughters of men and birthing the Nephilim? Nephilim were the seed of Satan that God mentions in the Gen 3 curse against Satan. They transformed into male creatures, male angels with women humans. The women could not resist these fallen angels. Women are susceptible to satanic influence to a greater degree than men.

And if you disagree with that then look at the Gen 3 pronouncement of the Lord regarding the women as a judgement He declared. That judgement Paul is proclaiming STILL applies into the new testament age or Paul would not have so mentioned in writting the text the way Paul did.

You don't read how the fallen angels became transformed into women to mate with human men.!

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days&#8212;and also afterward&#8212;when the sons of God (bene elohim angels) went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Do not fight against spiritual principles that God has declared. If you do that you're in opposition to God and need to repent and believe in the gospel of His dear Son. And do not be conformed to the thought patterns of the world but be transformed in your minds in alignment with the word of God.

Those who are fault finders of the word here that Paul wrote are what Peter referred to as twisters of scripture whose end is destruction. And he also says that when you're on the twisting path, so many other scriptures just dont make sense with your philosophy that you end up twisting the other scriptures also.

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord&#8217;s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[sdowney717]

11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.


Apparently the text that Paul wrote is hard to understand for some, (one meaning is I don't agree with it! Why would Paul write this way! Some even turning from Paul and calling Paul a false teacher. Others just ignore or distort the message to fit with their preconceived notion of God's fairness.)


just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[Assyrian]

It means that this layperson's position involves a laying on of hands as the candidate is "set aside" for the performance of her responsibilities--which are detailed in the part you didn't reprint here and which contrasts the male deacon's position with the female deaconesses's duties. This is often referred to an an "ordination," but in order to avoid confusion, it is also common to say that deacons are ordered, presbyters ordained, and bishops consecrated.

And yet Chalcedon uses the term 'ordained' for women deacons. Here is what orthodox wiki has to say about ordination and the Greek terms used for it.

Ordination - OrthodoxWiki
Ordination is the sacrament (or Holy Mystery) of holy Orders. The Greek words used for ordination are cheirotonia and cheirothesia, both of which mean "the laying on of hands." Members of the major orders of the clergy&#8212;bishop, priest, and deacon&#8212;are ordained during the Divine Liturgy by the bishop, who is usually assisted by several priests. According to Orthodox teaching, the process of ordination begins with the local congregation; but the bishop alone, who acts in the name of the universal Church, can complete the action. The ordination itself for those entering the major orders takes place within the altar.

Those who are placed into the minor orders (subdeacon, reader, and in some traditions, cantor) are done so by cheirothesia, which also means "laying on of hands," but has come to be a technically distinct term from cheirotonia, which is used only for the major orders. According to the DEC, cheirothesia is not regarded as part of the Holy Mystery of ordination (p. 117). The ordination for those entering the minor orders takes place within the nave of the church.
​

The Greek text of Chalcedon uses both cheirotonia and cheirothesia to describe ordaining women deacons. Remember cheirotonia is only used to describe ordination to higher orders of deacon, presbyter and bishop.

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​

The responsibilities of women you quoted come from a blog about Pheobe. I quoted the actual Canon of Chalcedon on women deacons.

Chalcedon:
14. Since in certain provinces readers and cantors have been allowed to marry, the sacred synod decrees that none of them is permitted to marry a wife of heterodox views. If those thus married have already had children, and if they have already had the children baptised among heretics, they are to bring them into the communion of the catholic church. If they have not been baptised, they may no longer have them baptised among heretics; nor indeed marry them to a heretic or a Jew or a Greek, unless of course the person who is to be married to the orthodox party promises to convert to the orthodox faith. If anyone transgresses this decree of the sacred synod, let him be subject to canonical penalty.

15. No woman under forty years of age is to be ordained a deacon, and then only after close scrutiny. If after receiving ordination and spending some time in the ministry she despises God&#8217;s grace and gets married, such a person is to be anathematised along with her spouse.

16. It is not permitted for a virgin who has dedicated herself to the Lord God, or similarly for a monk, to contract marriage. If it is discovered that they have done so, let them be made excommunicate. However, we have decreed that the local bishop should have discretion to deal humanely with them.

17. Rural or country parishes belonging to a church are to stay firmly tied to the bishops...
​

Only canon 15 deals with women deacons and only looks at the age they are ordained and their remaining single. When we look back at your quotation, only the first sentence describes the Council of Chalcedon's legislation.

Your quote:
"The Council of Chalcedon, held in the year 451, legislated that women could become deaconesses at the age of 40. A deaconess was to devote herself to the care of sick and poor women; she was present at the interviews of women with bishops, priests, or male deacons (so that the clergy wouldn&#8217;t be alone with strange women) and kept order in the women&#8217;s part of the church. Her most important function was the assistance at the baptism of women. For the first five centuries of the Church, people were baptized naked, and so, for the sake of propriety, male deacons couldn&#8217;t baptize women. When adult baptism became rare and was eventually replaced by infant baptism, he office of deaconess declined in importance. The office was actually abolished by the Council of Epaon in the year 517, but in the Nestorian Christian communities in Syria, and later in India and China, deaconesses administered Holy Communion to women and read the scriptures in public."
​

Now I am sure there are plenty of other places that describe the roles given to women deacons in church tradition. I would even think it reasonable that women deacons in the NT would have taken on responsibilities like baptising women, but what we don't find in the NT is the restriction of women deacon's ministries to these roles. We have very little information about Phoebe's ministry in Cenchreae but what we do know is that her role as prostatis or patron to many was not restricted to women but included Paul himself.

 

[Assyrian]

11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Apparently the text that Paul wrote is hard to understand for some, (one meaning is I don't agree with it! Why would Paul write this way! Some even turning from Paul and calling Paul a false teacher. Others just ignore or distort the message to fit with their preconceived notion of God's fairness.)

just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

So is Paul's letter hard to understand or not? If Peter thinks Paul is hard to understand then maybe the people who find that passage in 1Timothy hard to understand are on the right track, that they understand enough of what Paul is saying to recognise the difficulties. While, if you are one of the people who thinks is it easy instead, not that you distort it to you own destruction, but maybe you have simply missed Paul's point.

 

[Hayabusa]

There is nothing in scripture to indicate that they were preachers, unless you mean they could speak. But as called ministers, pastors, etc. which is what we usually mean when we say "preacher" you're just making that up.

A minister is a "servant" by definition. You object to women servants, or servers, more accurately? Also, a preacher would be anyone preaching the gospel, women included. Based on what you said, the women at the tomb were wrong for spreading the good news.

Incidentally, no one answered my question about which, if any, of the five-fold ministry women are actually permitted to be in. That is a serious question, worth asking and investigating.

 

[Albion]

A minister is a "servant" by definition.

Yes, but the point is that all these words--minister, deacon, servant, preacher, etc.--have many meanings. The only one that concerns us here is the one in context, the one that applies to the church and the Scriptures.

You object to women servants, or servers, more accurately?

I do not, and I have never said anything like that.

Also, a preacher would be anyone preaching the gospel, women included.

In that sense of the word, sure. But we are not speaking--we are almost NEVER speaking of women telling other people of their faith. The discussion is about them being pastors, clergy, called and installed by a congregation to officiate at the church's services and sacraments. We either discuss that in a forthright manner or we are just going in verbal circles, accomplishing nothing.

 

[Johnnz]

You're still ignoring and therefore twisting the meaning of what Paul wrote. If you think Paul was inspired by God, then you should pay attention to what Paul wrote and be obedient.

Paul makes the spiritual point the Eve was deceived, Adam chose. This point is not subtle and quite different in nature as to the mode of operation. This means the women are by their nature of being the 'weaker vessel' (Peter) and created last, are going to be more attractive to Satan as a way of attack. Satan knew he could not deceive Adam somehow, so Satan worked his evil by way of using the women!

Adam disobedience Eve beguiled - true, as a matter of fact. But being morally weaker is not there in the text. Eve had not been told by God what the prohibition was, hence Satan used that fact to approach her - good tactics. 'Weaker' less strong than men, not morally inferior.

And what about the sons of God coming into the daughters of men and birthing the Nephilim? Nephilim were the seed of Satan that God mentions in the Gen 3 curse against Satan. They transformed into male creatures, male angels with women humans. The women could not resist these fallen angels. Women are susceptible to satanic influence to a greater degree than men.

Maybe it's escaped you, but women are the receptacles in the sexual act. Your intepretation of Nephilim is by no means widely accepted.

And if you disagree with that then look at the Gen 3 pronouncement of the Lord regarding the women as a judgement He declared. That judgement Paul is proclaiming STILL applies into the new testament age or Paul would not have so mentioned in writting the text the way Paul did.

Paul clearly understood the gospel message to be the undoing of the Fall. Wherever the gospel has gone women have been given recognition and value most often in stark contrast to their previous cultural contexts.

You don't read how the fallen angels became transformed into women to mate with human men.!

I disagree with your understanding of those Scriptures. I also am aware that God impregnated Mary and trusted His son to her.

Do not fight against spiritual principles that God has declared. If you do that you're in opposition to God and need to repent and believe in the gospel of His dear Son. And do not be conformed to the thought patterns of the world but be transformed in your minds in alignment with the word of God.

I do belive in the Gospel - in its fullness as best I comprehend that - and that includes seeking how to best understand the Scriptures, one outcome being I draw from a wider cultural context for Paul' s letters than you do and don't see a perpetual divine order of the sexes being taught.

Those who are fault finders of the word here that Paul wrote are what Peter referred to as twisters of scripture whose end is destruction. And he also says that when you're on the twisting path, so many other scriptures just dont make sense with your philosophy that you end up twisting the other scriptures also.

Twisting is only if your views are the only ones in town that are truly Christian. But more comprehensive in scope and understanding is not twisting, just having more information to draw from.

John
NZ

 

[sdowney717]

So is Paul's letter hard to understand or not? If Peter thinks Paul is hard to understand then maybe the people who find that passage in 1 Timothy hard to understand are on the right track, that they understand enough of what Paul is saying to recognise the difficulties. While, if you are one of the people who thinks is it easy instead, not that you distort it to you own destruction, but maybe you have simply missed Paul's point.

For me, I read the passage as being one of the easier messages from Paul to understand.

Peter says 'hard to understand' here means then opportunity is presented to get on the wrong track not the right track. So it is not a positive message from Peter. So to me Peter is exposing the part deception plays out in people once they get on the wrong track of an issue.

He then goes on and says, "as they do the other scriptures". So when deception gets a foothold in your life, it becomes like an all or nothing affair. In for a penny, in for a pound. Start twisting meanings on one scripture, and it is progressive to the eventual personal downfall of an individual.


"as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

 

[Annie Mouse]

When living in the Northwest years ago, I've encountered some female pastors who seemed to be doing a good job. They preached as well as the males, from what I could tell.

I think "calling" to something or other is more personality and giftings based than gender based. For example, while traditionally more men were engineers, there are women who do a good job of being engineers, and there are some guys who would NOT do a good job of being engineers. Some women are great, even gifted, at math and science, whereas some guys are not at all.

Even recently I encountered another family (not the first example of such sort) with two teenage children. The teenage girl was bright, self-disciplined, and ambitious, and is hoping to go far with her education and with getting into a good career. The teenage boy lacks ambition, doesn't really care much about school or getting into a career, etc. Their mother described the girl as being "fiery" and the boy as being "sweet."
If one were to look at their personalities, it seems they are not gender-traditional. But sometimes that is how God makes it.

Shouldn't someone follow his or her calling in life based more on personality and gifting, rather than gender? Some women are strong and have good leadership abilities. Some men do not.

 

[Assyrian]

For me, I read the passage as being one of the easier messages from Paul to understand.

So it is quite possible that this is one of Paul's hard to understand passages and your simple understanding completely misses the point Paul is making?

Peter says 'hard to understand' here means then opportunity is presented to get on the wrong track not the right track. So it is not a positive message from Peter. So to me Peter is exposing the part deception plays out in people once they get on the wrong track of an issue.

He then goes on and says, "as they do the other scriptures". So when deception gets a foothold in your life, it becomes like an all or nothing affair. In for a penny, in for a pound. Start twisting meanings on one scripture, and it is progressive to the eventual personal downfall of an individual.

"as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

I would have though when Peter said hard to understand it actually meant Paul was hard to understand. Now this may as you say, present an opportunity for twisting scripture and self deception, but it that doesn't change the fact that even the apostle Peter thought that that Paul's epistles were, well, hard to understand.