WoF verses Non-WoF

[TasManOfGod]

Please know I will no longer respond to condescending attitudes,

ditto

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

How is it that WoF claims we are redeemed from the need for Yah's chastisement deal with the above passage?

It seems to me that it takes Yah's chastisment for our profit to generate Holiness. Holiness isn't just granted to us because of salvation through faith. It clearly states that He will chastise His sons. Does that mean that WoF followers that refuse the chastisement of Yah are bastards, not sons?

Not getting His chastisement is grievous and the individual won't manifest the 'fruit of righteousness'.

I would hate to think how my sons would turn out if they were never corrected for their error.

wof don't say we are redeemed from paideias - instruction training correction nurture. we embrace it.

paideias is really the word used in every place where the translators used 4 different words - chasten, scourge, corrected, chastisement. it is the same greek word, but for some reason the translators translated it 4 different ways. and they chose to use the harshest and most remote meaning.

so in this passage it would be far more reliable to use the original greek meaning of paideias - training instruction correction nurture - which is all summed up quite nicely in the word discipline.

check out the original greek http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/heb12.pdf

the nasv more accurately matches the original greek. notice how they use the word discipline consistently except once for the greek word paideias. even "scourges" is the word paideias though, so it really should have been translated discipline too. notice how the word discipline is the same as disciple. the LORD'S disciples were HIS students, not HIS reform school wards.

also google the word paideias. you will see that it is a very popular greek word used for schools and training centers NOT correction punishment centers. our GOD is love. and the BIBLE scholars who translated the BIBLE did not properly reflect that in their translations. so we are forced in this instance to rely on the original greek.

Hebrews 12:6-11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines (paideias),
And He scourges (paideias) every son whom He receives.”

7 It is for discipline (paideias) that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Here are some verses to chew on:
Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. Romans 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. Romans 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. Romans 7:23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. Romans 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. Galatians 6:2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. James 1:25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

Here are some verses to chew on:

John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. Romans 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. Romans 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. Romans 7:23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. Romans 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. Galatians 6:2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. James 1:25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.

amen. good scriptures here.

one thing about wof is we focus on the promises, BECAUSE JESUS took care of the curses. and that frees us up to joyfully obey HIS instructions.

we are not afraid. we boldly come before HIS throne of grace to receive all we have need of. INCLUDING help with addictions failures bondages sins. we NEED HIM for EVERTHING. and HIS grace makes a way for us to approach HIM on every issue.

so with wof there is only rejoicing and thankfulness. we PRAISE GOD for everything JESUS paid for. and we are not shy or embarrassed to turn to HIM when we need help with a failure or a struggle.

 

[sk8Joyful]

for some reason the translators translated it 4 different ways.
and they chose to use the harshest and most remote meaning.

Yes, sadly they could only work from the empoverished resources they had.

notice how the word discipline is the same as disciple. the LORD'S disciples were HIS students,
not HIS reform school wards.
also google the word paideias. a very popular greek word used for schools and training centers
NOT correction punishment centers. our GOD is love.

Too many talk of, & subsequently discipline = punishment.

But God being LOVE = disciple wholly different ballgame

 

[sk8Joyful]

Here are some verses
to chew on:
Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life
set me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Romans 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law,
but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you,
he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Galatians 6:2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
James 1:25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.

These are all Excellent! and part of my 365 Scriptures I use
to show others how the Bible is God's LOVE-notes to us

 

[HolySpiritWOF2]

Yes, sadly they could only work from the empoverished resources they had.

Too many talk of, & subsequently discipline = punishment.

But God being LOVE = disciple wholly different ballgame

These are all Excellent! and part of my 365 Scriptures I use
to show others how the Bible is God's LOVE-notes to us

amen.

 

[probinson]

Please know I will no longer respond to condescending attitudes,
like be "enlightened" - when already more enlightened as far as what God/Jesus for us did, and continues doing. Thank you!

So since RBTC is supposedly Christ-centered,
explain these facts:
1. E.W. Kenyon, Father of the Word of Faith Movement.
One of the initial teachers of divine healing and it is
(always God's will that His children heal: True)
died in a coma brought on by a malignant tumor. (Copeland teaches
that Kenyon was sitting in a rocking chair, his daughter came into the room and
Kenyon said "there's Jesus, good bye," and went to glory.) That is a lie. He died from disease.

2. Rhema Founder Kenneth E. Hagin Sr. after collapsing at home, died in a "cardiac intensive care unit" where he struggled for life from 9/14 to 9/23/2003.
(in contrast to the old story of Hagin's heart & incurable blood disease being healed, when he was a teen).
and
3. Hagin's sister died from cancer.
Plus Hagin's wife had surgery, even though Jesus "appeared" to Hagin and gave him a special anointing to heal the sick.

Doyle "Buddy" Harrison, Founder of Harrison House Books, son-in-law of Kenneth E. Hagin died Nov. 1998 of cancer.
He was the founder of Faith Christian Fellowship, the WOF denomination.
How could he have died of cancer? He was in the "faith movement" BEFORE Copeland and others...

John Osteen, mega-church pastor in Houston.

Jamie Buckingham, Discipleship Movement & charismatic author, died from cancer and also AFTER chemo-therapy.

John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of "Power Healing," died from cancer and also AFTER chemo-therapy.

Chris Wimber, GM of Vineyard Music died Feb 6, 1998 of melanoma cancer.
Mahesh is supposed to have healed people of cancer and AIDS, so where was Chris' healing?

Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer.

R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass

Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died.
If
WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing."
(Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings).

Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and underwent chemo-therapy, excusing same with
"If you need a crutch upon or something to help you get along,
then praise God, hobble along until you get your faith moving
to the point that you don’t need a crutch." How Faith Works pp. 92-92
After all the years of sitting under "anointed" faith teaching
by one of the movements leading faith teachers, was not enough for Fred’s wife.

Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality (VERY True), and his wife got cancer.

On evidence, what wofers preach does not always work.
Why not?
Because being sick is NOT always a matter of "lack of faith".

And God/Jesus Christ will NOT back such doctrine.

The point is this: Unless you know, as God/Jesus also said How to help people heal,
as I have now said a dozen times, often by healing the Root-cause, the person will not heal.

Wow. For someone who thinks we shouldn't follow after man, that sure is a lot of focus on things that are happening to men...

 

[probinson]

You too! I had a rare free afternoon and wondered what was going on over here.

Sadly, nothing new.

Hey, feel free to pop by the other place too. Everyone would be happy to "see" you again.

 

[Simon Peter]

You don't care for baseless political correctness? About the Italian mob thing? Okay, if you want to make simplified, stereotypical statements about groups of people, you can play by those rules. I wouldn't call that political correctness, more common decency. But you know whatever.

Are you truly offended when Hollywood uses Italian names, and clearly portrays members of the Mafia as Italian-American?

The Italian-Americans I've spoken to (I used to live in New Jersey) are kind of proud of the Mafia, not the brutality, but how Italian they were and how they maintained many Italian family traditions.

Still seems strange that you're concerned WOF ministers are going around striking people with cancer and stuff.

What seems strange is that WoF ministers would threaten and intimidate people with cancer and stuff.


peace,
Simon

 

[charityagape]

Simon Peter Are you truly offended when Hollywood uses Italian names, and clearly portrays members of the Mafia as Italian-American?

The Italian-Americans I've spoken to (I used to live in New Jersey) are kind of proud of the Mafia, not the brutality, but how Italian they were and how they maintained many Italian family traditions.


Me. Well yeah. Racism offends me. [/COLOR]


SP What seems strange is that WoF ministers would threaten and intimidate people with cancer and stuff.

Me. No , it's weird that it concerns you to the such a high degree when you don't believe they have the powe to carry out the threat. I mean, if I were a weird crackpot that told you I 'm going to send aliens to steal your brain would you be afraid? Concerned? (for yourself and others safety, not concerned because I believe in aliens). I dont think it's far fetched for me to say you think WOF is compposed of crackpots who can't get God to do anything, right? So the world is full of a billion crackpots follow crackpot leaders, why do intensely focused on spending your time arguing about this one? That's weird. [COLOR/]

Note: I don't think WOF is a crackpot movement. But if I did I would pray to God I didn't spend vast amounts of my time at forums and doing research to prove to people, people who will NEVER believe me anyway, that it's a crackpot movement.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Would someone please explain...
how this wof versus NON-wof discussion, got intentionally
Derailed by unrelated talk of Racism, Mafia, Hollyweird,
offenses, crackpot-movements, etc. or
Are they related to wof and how?

 

[Simon Peter]

Me. No , it's weird that it concerns you to the such a high degree when you don't believe they have the powe to carry out the threat.
...
I dont think it's far fetched for me to say you think WOF is compposed of crackpots who can't get God to do anything, right?

I've never said that the curses prayed by prosperity gospel leaders, to come upon those who criticise them, have no power. They obviously have the power to intimidate.
As for the curse having spiritual power, I don't know. When they mess with curses they may even harness the power of Satan. In which case Christians better have full armour or they could be affected.

In the case of threats and intimidation by WoF leaders, this again has the power to intimidate.

So the world is full of a billion crackpots follow crackpot leaders, why do intensely focused on spending your time arguing about this one? That's weird.

Note: I don't think WOF is a crackpot movement. But if I did I would pray to God I didn't spend vast amounts of my time at forums and doing research to prove to people, people who will NEVER believe me anyway, that it's a crackpot movement.

I've told you before, here's some membership years verses posts:

Simon Peter: 8 years 1,900 posts

Charityagape: 7 years 7,000 posts
Simply Put: 6 years 11,000 posts
probinson: 7 years 16,000 posts

Now who's intensely wasting vast amounts of their time more?

You've used the word "crackpot" at least four times, I've never used that word.


peace,
Simon

 

[dkbwarrior]

I've never said that the curses prayed by prosperity gospel leaders, to come upon those who criticise them, have no power. They obviously have the power to intimidate.
As for the curse having spiritual power, I don't know. When they mess with curses they may even harness the power of Satan. In which case Christians better have full armour or they could be affected.

In the case of threats and intimidation by WoF leaders, this again has the power to intimidate.





I've told you before, here's some membership years verses posts:

Simon Peter: 8 years 1,900 posts

Charityagape: 7 years 7,000 posts
Simply Put: 6 years 11,000 posts
probinson: 7 years 16,000 posts

Now who's intensely wasting vast amounts of their time more?

You've used the word "crackpot" at least four times, I've never used that word.


peace,
Simon

Nice, but to add some context from my experience only. I cant personally recall any one of those three ever spending any time in any thread cirticizing, judging, and accusing other denominations or ministers of the gospel.

I do personally recall you doing alot of that, in nearly every encounter that I have had with you at least on these forums; that has been my personal experience. Even your avatar is intended as a criticism; you appear to be obsessed.

I think the point being made was not that posting here was a waste of time, obviously none of us think that, or we wouldn't be here. Rather I think the point was that spending inordinate amounts of ones time and energy criticizing, juding and accusing others is a waste of time. And you seem to have a history of that in spades.

Peace...

 

[sk8Joyful]

I've never said that the curses prayed by prosperity gospel leaders,
to come upon those who criticise them, have no power. They obviously have the power to intimidate.

As for the curse having spiritual power, I don't know.
When they mess with curses they may even harness the power of Satan.

In which case Christians better have full armour or they could be affected.

You've used the word crackpot at least four times, I've never used that word.

okay, another question:
One can observe the wofers quoting from the Bible God's LOVE as the day is long...
so
Why would they also "mess with curses harnessing the power of Satan"
No doubt there's CFer's who do that; but why ...... particularly the wofers ?

 

[Yahu]

What is the WoF stand on eternal security verses 'loss of salvation'?

 

[Simon Peter]

Nice, but to add some context from my experience only. I cant personally recall any one of those three ever spending any time in any thread cirticizing, judging, and accusing other denominations or ministers of the gospel.

I do personally recall you doing alot of that, in nearly every encounter that I have had with you at least on these forums; that has been my personal experience. Even your avatar is intended as a criticism; you appear to be obsessed.

I think the point being made was not that posting here was a waste of time, obviously none of us think that, or we wouldn't be here. Rather I think the point was that spending inordinate amounts of ones time and energy criticizing, juding and accusing others is a waste of time. And you seem to have a history of that in spades.

hmmm....yet all three have spent tons of time critcising, judging and accusing me!

It seems WoF don't want others to criticise (hence the threats of cancer and death etc.) but they want to criticise.

There's barely a thread on this forum where I've posted criticism, that I haven't been criticised by 2, 3 or 4 WoFers. See this thread for example.

Seems WoFers are spending more time criticising and judging and accusing me, than I am WoF!

I think in possibly most cases I'd be content to post in a thread a few times and leave it. But then some WoF - usually more than one - comes in and starts accusing, arguing and crtiticising me, and I get drawn into these type of debates. Then - LOL - you guys appear to say it's all my fault.

As for accusation of being "obsessed". Again, I rarely post here compared to you guys. You guys post five, six, eight or even 10 times as often as I do.
I post in plenty of other forums, never about WoF, and apparently have more outside interests than you guys. But I'm the one who's told to:

"get a life"!


peace,
Simon

 

[Yahu]

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep (Die).
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

This passage seems to contradict WoF doctrine. Having sin in your life while taking communion can lead to weakness, sickness and death. So is this discipline of Yah?

Here in Rev 2 Yeshua is himself saying He will send illness, tribulation and death on those that fall into the error of Jezebel.


21 and I gave her time that she should repent, and she will not repent of her fornication.
22 behold, I cast her into a bed, and those that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,
23 and her children will I kill with death; and all the assemblies shall know that *I* am he that searches the reins and the hearts; and I will give to you each according to your works.

The 'bed' that Jezebel is cast into is a 'sick couch'. Again there is illness and death sent by Yeshua, not Satan.

This seems to me to contradict the WoF SoF:

10. We believe that in all things pertaining to life on earth, God is the Author of all that is good; it is only the devil who comes to steal, kill and destroy. God never tempts us, nor uses any element of the curse (Deut. 28) to teach us; He only teaches us by His Holy Spirit revealing to us, the truth of His Holy Word. (John 10:10, James 1:13, Psalm 119:105, John 16:13, Deuteronomy 28)

 

[sk8Joyful]

I think in possibly most cases I'd be content to post in a thread a few times and leave it.
Again, I rarely post here compared to you guys.
You guys post five, six, eight or even 10 times as often as I do.
peace,
Simon

are you sure?

So far in this thread: Simon Peter 41
HolySpiritWOF2 36
Simply Put 27
charityagape 19
dkbwarrior 16
probinson 13
TasManOfGod 11

 

[Simon Peter]

are you sure?

So far in this thread: Simon Peter 41
HolySpiritWOF2 36
Simply Put 27
charityagape 19
dkbwarrior 16
probinson 13
TasManOfGod 11

Like I've already said, I've been ganged up on by 4 or more WoF on this thread, so I find myself answering accusations by 4 or more people. Do the math.

Besides, my reference was to total posts compared with membership years, which does show them posting between 5 to 10 times more often than I do.


peace,
Simon