Wine and Children

[Gxg (G²)]

That's exactly it, if the Bible meant grape juice it would say grape juice! But it doesnt, it says wine and it's obvious that the purpose of wine is to make merry (doesnt mean drunk). I look at other countries and I see how nice it is to have a glass of wine with one's dinner or to celebrate special occasions with class by having champagne. But here, usually drinking is associated with late night party (or solitary) binges so alcohol has been cast in a bad light. I guess I see it the way I see sex - it was created for good but is often perverted for evil.
.

Curious as to whether or not you would extend the concept of responsible drinking to other things drug-related such as Marijuana use? For others feel it's within the category of things given from the earth for use just as wine was (more discussed here and here in Medicinal Marijuana - Torah.org).

 

[Conor B]

I suspect alcoholism may have a genetic component because my mother married a biker who was half Irish half Cherokee and he could not drink anything containing alcohol without going on a screaming bender. Virtually all of his family and children have inherited this same tendency.

On the other hand my mothers family who are Jewish have almost no problems drinkers at all.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I suspect alcoholism may have a genetic component because my mother married a biker who was half Irish half Cherokee and he could not drink anything containing alcohol without going on a screaming bender. Virtually all of his family and children have inherited this same tendency.

On the other hand my mothers family who are Jewish have almost no problems drinkers at all.

That's a big point. A lot of people may not be genetically able to handle drinking alcohol whereas others may not be able to do so without going into excess, especially as it concerns the tendencies of family members throughout their ancestry. I had one older friend who once noted to me the reality of what often happened when he saw his father drinking heavily and swore he'd NEVER do the same....and eventually, he found himself years later drinking heavily like his father and was shocked to remember what he said. It was at that point when he realized that there would always be things inherent in his background that he would not be able to escape...and although he's free from alcoholism and has friends who drink, he has come to terms that there's something within his family line that is simply not able to handle it.

Some may wish to call it generational curses...

 

[MessianicMommy]

I was thinking about the whole alcohol debate among Christians. I was wondering if the debate was so large and alcohol is so 'taboo' amongst the Jewish/messianic groups. Has any research been done on this? I know it's considered normal to have wine during the holy days, but there are Christians who will swear up and down it's just grape juice. lol. I've heard its commonplace for adults to allow children to have some wine (not their own glass probably) rather than considering wine taboo. What do ya'll think?

Long story short, we have no mystery about alcohol in our home. I don't drink often, especially since there's no one to be "social" with while doing it. DH is a teetotaler. His family are not whatsoever. (Also not alcoholic.)

My family ranges from issues of alcoholism in certain members now passed away, and teetotalism. The bulk of my mom's generation or older, are teetotalists. We never were, which often had us in hot water for wine coolers, which my dad got once in a very blue moon, or the gift we got from our landlord of sherry on the holidays in Spain. (One simply does not refuse a gift in Spain.)

That being said, I have corn whiskey in the house, but that's for medicinal use (Rock and Rye). That and cordial were the only things my grandparents ever had in their cabinet for their 50+ year marriage. I have some Tequila, but I never broke the bottle open. I've some cherry liquor to make a Schwartzwälder Kirschtorte, but I don't forsee that happening in this heat. I got some rum, but that's for making vanilla flavoring (I have beans in the kitchen), and I have vodka for the same purpose... except my inlaws have taken some of it and it's down to about 1/8th of the bottle. I have to be careful not to get grain alcohol because I react to it. Supposedly it's gluten free, so I must be allergic to the grains now.

Anyway, I do have a couple bottles of wine in the cellar, but they're the 2 portion version bottles, since DH won't drink with me and I don't know what I like. So I got a couple brands and types that are supposedly well liked here as fruity and "full".

For holiday/birthday celebrations with the family, I'll have a glass of Sekt. If the kids ask to try it, I do not forbid it. I believe forbidding something makes it have an air of mystery to it that is unhealthy. The law for legally drinking here, is 16 for beer and wine as some other party drinks without spirits; 18 for spiritshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_drinking_age#cite_note-icap-1. Possession or consumption of alcohol by minors is allowed, but it is illegal to sell minors alcohol or to let them drink in public below the respective drinking age. Fermented alcoholic beverages may be consumed by minors at the age of 14 in public in presence of a legal guardian; drinking in private is allowed. The restrictions on distilled beverages apply also to mixed drinks containing them.


Another big contrast is that most teens are not driving (if they drive at all) until 17 (with adult supervision - graduated license) or 18. There are strict laws in place for drink-driving.

There seems to be teens going out on non-school nights or during the holidays with friends to the different Biergarten or to disco clubs, but not the crazy stuff you see on TV or in the news from the UK for example. Not saying it's better, but that there is less of a mystery about things and people take a more conservative attitude about drinking, at least in this area of my region. It is of course, a bit different in larger cities, especially in more multi-cultural areas with differing expectations when it comes to alcohol...

My perspective is that the Bible talks about wine, strong drink/beer - and that the only issue is getting drunk and going out and doing or saying stupid things.

If you are drinking and eating in moderation and not drunk in public, I have no issue.

If you are out and drinking yourself into the floor and a public nuisance, yes, I have issue.

If you are in your own home, it's none of my beeswax.


I think it's hilarious to see how history has been white-washed in retrospect of the prohibition, and that we thought the history of drinking in the USA was because of immigrants coming in that were less religious/spiritual-- yadda yadda, when the Pilgrims themselves brought barrels of beer with them and drank it freely.

I know I mentioned it before, and elsewhere in this area of the forum, but the PBS documentary on The Prohibition is highly recommended.

G. You asked about illegal drug use - no, my stance is that when a country makes something illegal that is otherwise not ness. harmful by moderate use, it is good to obey the law of the land. Medicinal/controlled MaryJane, if you have a need, I have no issue with you using it.
My aunt used it in her last days of colon cancer. It and morphine were the only things helping the pain. I would never wish to forbid something that is helpful in someone's last days.

If I know someone has an issue with my drinking when we go out to eat, or they are in my home, I do not offer and I do not drink around them on principle. But not drinking period while out and about because someone might see me that goes to my grandma's church or something? No. And I don't care if they see it in my shopping basket and have a conniption fit.
And if they did have a conniption fit, I'd ask how they knew it was me since Baptists aren't supposed to recognise each other in the package store anyhow.


I also seriously do not understand why there's an issue of dry and wet counties and whether or not they sell alcohol in a store vs a restaurant on a Sunday in my home state. It's ridiculous. I can drive 20 minutes and go somewhere I can't eat, or go shopping at the same store in the next county to have alcohol if I want it, but I can't purchase it in a restaurant or store in my home county. Because in my home county, it's "sinful".
They even preach from the pulpit about the "excess" and "sinfulness" of the county that sells on Sunday - because it encourages a sinful lifestyle.

Last I checked, eating and drinking when not in excess does not = sin.

Yet, same people preaching have absolutely no issues with gluttony and over eating, so.... yeah. It's just such a double standard.


At this point I brew my own kombucha and kefir. They have super low alcohol content (Naturally occurring of course), and the kids drink those. Our guts are damaged, so the goal is to get good bacterial flora going to aid our digestion, heal the gut prayer and supply nutrients that are not commonly found in many gluten free foods.

There are health benefits and detriments to drinking alcohol. We cannot have beer (grains we cannot partake of), and I have not tried gluten free beer.
DH won't eat anything with alcohol and the only thing I can think of making is beer battered chicken or fish... He'd complain of the smell in the kitchen, and honestly when you've worked over a hot stove in a small kitchen to make a meal, the last thing you want to hear is someone moaning about how the place smells and that they do not want to eat what you made.

Wine can aid digestion. Beer used to add in essentials to the diet when bread was a luxury. This is why it is often referred to as liquid bread.

I've found that the family members who were alcoholic, were not raised to be such, and simply fell on very hard times and that was their vice to get through those times.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Long story short, we have no mystery about alcohol in our home. I don't drink often, especially since there's no one to be "social" with while doing it. DH is a teetotaler. His family are not whatsoever. (Also not alcoholic.)

My family ranges from issues of alcoholism in certain members now passed away, and teetotalism. The bulk of my mom's generation or older, are teetotalists. We never were, which often had us in hot water for wine coolers, which my dad got once in a very blue moon, or the gift we got from our landlord of sherry on the holidays in Spain. (One simply does not refuse a gift in Spain.)

That being said, I have corn whiskey in the house, but that's for medicinal use (Rock and Rye). That and cordial were the only things my grandparents ever had in their cabinet for their 50+ year marriage. I have some Tequila, but I never broke the bottle open. I've some cherry liquor to make a Schwartzwälder Kirschtorte, but I don't forsee that happening in this heat. I got some rum, but that's for making vanilla flavoring (I have beans in the kitchen), and I have vodka for the same purpose... except my inlaws have taken some of it and it's down to about 1/8th of the bottle. I have to be careful not to get grain alcohol because I react to it. Supposedly it's gluten free, so I must be allergic to the grains now.

Anyway, I do have a couple bottles of wine in the cellar, but they're the 2 portion version bottles, since DH won't drink with me and I don't know what I like. So I got a couple brands and types that are supposedly well liked here as fruity and "full".

For holiday/birthday celebrations with the family, I'll have a glass of Sekt. If the kids ask to try it, I do not forbid it. I believe forbidding something makes it have an air of mystery to it that is unhealthy. The law for legally drinking here, is 16 for beer and wine as some other party drinks without spirits; 18 for spirits. Possession or consumption of alcohol by minors is allowed, but it is illegal to sell minors alcohol or to let them drink in public below the respective drinking age. Fermented alcoholic beverages may be consumed by minors at the age of 14 in public in presence of a legal guardian; drinking in private is allowed. The restrictions on distilled beverages apply also to mixed drinks containing them.


Another big contrast is that most teens are not driving (if they drive at all) until 17 (with adult supervision - graduated license) or 18. There are strict laws in place for drink-driving.

There seems to be teens going out on non-school nights or during the holidays with friends to the different Biergarten or to disco clubs, but not the crazy stuff you see on TV or in the news from the UK for example. Not saying it's better, but that there is less of a mystery about things and people take a more conservative attitude about drinking, at least in this area of my region. It is of course, a bit different in larger cities, especially in more multi-cultural areas with differing expectations when it comes to alcohol...

My perspective is that the Bible talks about wine, strong drink/beer - and that the only issue is getting drunk and going out and doing or saying stupid things.

If you are drinking and eating in moderation and not drunk in public, I have no issue.

If you are out and drinking yourself into the floor and a public nuisance, yes, I have issue.

If you are in your own home, it's none of my beeswax.


I think it's hilarious to see how history has been white-washed in retrospect of the prohibition, and that we thought the history of drinking in the USA was because of immigrants coming in that were less religious/spiritual-- yadda yadda, when the Pilgrims themselves brought barrels of beer with them and drank it freely.

I know I mentioned it before, and elsewhere in this area of the forum, but the PBS documentary on The Prohibition is highly recommended.

G. You asked about illegal drug use - no, my stance is that when a country makes something illegal that is otherwise not ness. harmful by moderate use, it is good to obey the law of the land. Medicinal/controlled MaryJane, if you have a need, I have no issue with you using it.
My aunt used it in her last days of colon cancer. It and morphine were the only things helping the pain. I would never wish to forbid something that is helpful in someone's last days.

If I know someone has an issue with my drinking when we go out to eat, or they are in my home, I do not offer and I do not drink around them on principle. But not drinking period while out and about because someone might see me that goes to my grandma's church or something? No. And I don't care if they see it in my shopping basket and have a conniption fit.
And if they did have a conniption fit, I'd ask how they knew it was me since Baptists aren't supposed to recognise each other in the package store anyhow.


I also seriously do not understand why there's an issue of dry and wet counties and whether or not they sell alcohol in a store vs a restaurant on a Sunday in my home state. It's ridiculous. I can drive 20 minutes and go somewhere I can't eat, or go shopping at the same store in the next county to have alcohol if I want it, but I can't purchase it in a restaurant or store in my home county. Because in my home county, it's "sinful".
They even preach from the pulpit about the "excess" and "sinfulness" of the county that sells on Sunday - because it encourages a sinful lifestyle.

Last I checked, eating and drinking when not in excess does not = sin.

Yet, same people preaching have absolutely no issues with gluttony and over eating, so.... yeah. It's just such a double standard.


At this point I brew my own kombucha and kefir. They have super low alcohol content (Naturally occurring of course), and the kids drink those. Our guts are damaged, so the goal is to get good bacterial flora going to aid our digestion, heal the gut prayer and supply nutrients that are not commonly found in many gluten free foods.

There are health benefits and detriments to drinking alcohol. We cannot have beer (grains we cannot partake of), and I have not tried gluten free beer.
DH won't eat anything with alcohol and the only thing I can think of making is beer battered chicken or fish... He'd complain of the smell in the kitchen, and honestly when you've worked over a hot stove in a small kitchen to make a meal, the last thing you want to hear is someone moaning about how the place smells and that they do not want to eat what you made.

Wine can aid digestion. Beer used to add in essentials to the diet when bread was a luxury. This is why it is often referred to as liquid bread.

I've found that the family members who were alcoholic, were not raised to be such, and simply fell on very hard times and that was their vice to get through those times.

Real in regards to what you noted. The history of how alcohol was banned on Sunday is so interesting to keep up with, especially when looking at the ways a religious law was made to reflect law all over that not all held to...and the ways the laws seem to change from country to country are always an intricate matter.

As it concerns believers getting offended on the issue of drinking, I do wonder what to make of it when Christ noted where he was also eating/drinking as well publically:

Luke 7:34
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’
Luke 7:33-35
​

 

[MessianicMommy]

Exactly! Do you know I never ever heard or read that verse until a few years ago, people are that opposed to any passages that show that Y'shua was a human who lived within His culture, which included alcohol?

 

[yedida]

Exactly! Do you know I never ever heard or read that verse until a few years ago, people are that opposed to any passages that show that Y'shua was a human who lived within His culture, which included alcohol?

That verse is what I alluded to earlier in this thread. I said that we Messies are known to use wine every week and are put down for it. I stated that at least we're in good company (Yeshua being known to drink wine as welll!).

 

[toLiJC]

I was thinking about the whole alcohol debate among Christians. I was wondering if the debate was so large and alcohol is so 'taboo' amongst the Jewish/messianic groups. Has any research been done on this? I know it's considered normal to have wine during the holy days, but there are Christians who will swear up and down it's just grape juice. lol. I've heard its commonplace for adults to allow children to have some wine (not their own glass probably) rather than considering wine taboo. What do ya'll think?

when i was a child my parents gave me only a non-alcoholic champagne as a wine - a sparkling/fizzy grape juice, and now i still prefer this than the alcoholic drinks

 

[Gxg (G²)]

when i was a child my parents gave me only a non-alcoholic champagne as a wine - a sparkling/fizzy grape juice, and now i still prefer this than the alcoholic drinks

The fizzy grape juice is so excellent...and it's always wild whenever others see me drinking it at parties and wonder why I don't prefer wine over it