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Wickedness at World Cup 2014 - Why did Christians support Evil with Sports Culture?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Gxg (G²), Aug 7, 2014.

  1. Nanopants

    Nanopants Guest

    We have no reason to expect human nature at large to change. As long as we exist, people will want to escape suffering, and be happy and filled through bread and entertainment. It's the gift of God, as Solomon would say, if we can eat and be satisfied.

    Societies do change though, and considering the bloody murder that used to occupy stadiums like these, or Europe's long history of violent revolution carried out by common folk fighting for survival, I'd not want to be diluting the victories that Christ has won for simply not measuring up to lofty expectations.

    That humanity is imperfect is always a given. At least in some nations the general populations are well fed and taken care of, and thank God, happier and living life more abundantly.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2014
  2. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Judging by what you said later on in the comments, it is evident you don't really understand where it was going...and the videos would help to clarify that reality.
    By the logic used here - claiming that something promoting jobs and economy is a matter of helping others and should not be sharply addressed - is the same ideology that was used to justify slavery when it came to the sugar cane and cotton industry. It was said that just because there are corrupt slave owners in the industry doesn't mean that slavery itself should be shut down since the economy of the South depended on it and other nations made their livelihoods on it (more noted here and here/here/here).

    Nonetheless, it didn't matter whether or not there were economic benefits coming about from a practice or revenue when there was rank injustice and murder happening as a result of not addressing it - as that'd be like having an infestation of roaches and rats in a house as well as the house being one where the original occupants were murdered in order for you to have it and yet all that can be said is "Well look at how spacious the rooms are!" - you did something about it.

    Good things coming out of something doesn't mean that it's good - and with sports, it's the same issue. Jn the same way that slaves never sought to be slaves and fought to get out of it - regardless of how others were getting economic benefits at their expense

    Of course there are large problems that cannot be handled by indignation alone. Had one actually saw the videos and saw what others were doing who were either protesting or addressing the matter, one would see where there were practical issues going on which addressed the social/economic backgrounds of what was happening. With the World Cup, many have noted how addressing the issues is complicated - but at least it can be done. In example, one can investigate the work of David Zirin, a prominent social activist and sports historian who has noted repeatedly the impact of sports and the ways corruption can be addressed within it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LawaXrGU9k

    Dave Zirin on the People's Revolt Challenging 2014 World Cup - YouTube
    Brazil's Dance With the Devil: Dave Zirin on the People's Revolt Challenging 2014 World Cup - YouTube
    The Collision of Sports and Politics - YouTube
    Brazil's Dance with the Devil: World Cup, Olympics, and the Fight for Democracy (w/ Dave Zirin) - YouTube
    Dave Zirin: Abolish FIFA - YouTube


    Of course, no one is condemning the sport of soccer in/of itself. What they are condemning is the rampant corruption within the organizations using the sport of soccer in a way that diminishes the sport - in light of the history of the sport itself and where it was used to promote much evil..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm-q75Z1NUs
    What is being noted specifically as an issue is when revenue is occurring through unjust means in an immense sense (and with FULL knowledge whenever others participate ) and the goal is our entertainment.

    This goes for the World Cup - the Super Bowl or any other Sport event where injustice is the key factor in it spreading. And it is self-serving to ignore that rather than actually deal with the problem as it is. We're called to address the issues we see around us - as that's part of our calling as being the salt of the Earth and the light of the world - more shared elsewhere, as seen here:

     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  3. ChristsSoldier115

    ChristsSoldier115 Mabaho na Kuya

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    Apathetic american culture is the problem for christians in america. "If I didn't create the problem, then it isn't my problem." is their mantra. It has infected the churches here.

    Same reasoning why people walk by a piece of trash on the road instead of picking it up to throw it away. 'I didn't put it there so I should not have to pick it up." is their excuse.
     
  4. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    And thus, we have no reason being active in addressing social issues if going with that mentality, from crime/murder to human trafficking to terrorism and many other things.

    We're called as believers to deal with the issues facing us - as St. Paul noted repeatedly (Titus 3) and Jesus talked on when it came to being the Salt of the Earth and the Light of the world. That cannot and will never happen as long as we choose to tune out with the issues occurring simply because of realizing where man is corrupt.
    Murder is murder - and it is still occurring in stadiums whether people want to see it or not. Things change but they sometimes take time - and other times, they take action. One of the reasons why things shifted drastically in various points of history - and it is diluting Christ in his commands to simply look back at where things have been accomplished and then say that to address it today in the same manner as others did in the past is simply "lofty"

    There's no justification for people to be kicked out of their homes or murdered in order to make a stadium - as that's the same as what occurred in Roman times when villages were destroyed to make room for a new building the Roman empire was creating or to make a palace that those well-off could have a fun time while others were starving.

    In context,

    Ecclesiastes 3:9-14

    9 What do workers gain from their toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on the human race. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet[a] no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live. 13 That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear hi​


    And outside of that, there's also the following:

    Ecclesiastes 5:8
    "If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still."

    ]Ecclesiastes 4:1-3
    Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun:

    I saw the tears of the oppressed—
    and they have no comforter;
    power was on the side of their oppressors—
    and they have no comforter.
    2 And I declared that the dead,
    who had already died,
    are happier than the living,
    who are still alive.
    3 But better than both
    is the one who has never been born,
    who has not seen the evil
    that is done under the sun.​


    In the remote provinces, the poor often had to put themselves for protection from the inroads of Philistines, & under chieftains, who oppressed them even in Solomon's reign (1 Kings 12:4). And in Solomon's time (after he was corrupt - I Kings 11), he saw where others were frequently not given justice and noted the patterns that occurred in the world.

    Life is complicated and Solomon noted that the instances of oppression which you observe are only parts of a large/immense scheme of mutual wrong-doing, the oppressors of one being themselves oppressed in turn by their superiors.” And instead of being shocked with it, one should see it as part of the fallen world we live in. That's not to say one should do nothing on it - just as one learning to be thankful for the good occurring in life (eat your bread, per se) doesn't get a pass from addressing sin around them

    But we shouldn't be surprised..


    The teacher is fond of saying that “there is nothing new under the sun" AND “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already is." He was speaking in regards to the ways things tend to cycle out in history - and, for that matter, noting what life was like in the world


    Sports are a reflection of that when seeing what has occurred historically - and they not simply something that can be dismissed - there has been oppression, toil and injustice...while there have also been others who did much in it and helped to encourage others. AND on more with regards to the actual history behind why sports are things that have to be treated with the same seriousness as racism or other big issues:

    G



    Just a thought//

    Thank God for that indeed..​
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  5. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Many thanks for taking the time to share, as I appreciate the thoughts you listed.


    Very true as it concerns the ways that the sport seem to always give double-messages. The NFL is very much guilty of this, when seeing the ways that evil actions (i.e. drug abuse, violence, etc.) are permitted to occur with minimal consequences since what matters more than anything else is the entertainment of the sport - and yet when it does occur, it is often decried and it seems like a bit of cognitive dissonance. What happened with Ray Rice was an excellent example of what you were noting - I'd add what happened when National Football League's culture of violence came under scrutiny after Miami Dolphins player Richie Incognito allegedly made bullying and racist threats to his teammate Jonathan Martin. T - and of course, even in the world of Basketball, we can add Donald Sterling to the list, seeing what happened with his craziness with how everyone was more concerned with his comments against blacks rather than his being a slum lord who helped in gentrification and neighborhood violence that comes with that. And then of course, the racism that is present in the world of sports on so many levels is not something that people are even able to see....

    The Colour Of Football - Black Britain - YouTube

    Many thanks for bringing this up - as I had no idea that this was actually occurring in the world. It's amazing to see how expansive things are - but sadly, it's not new.

    In regards to the dynamics of how bloodshed is less and yet still present when it comes to war being conducted on differing groups, this is actually something that has happened even more extensively than others realize. It's interesting you brought up the issue of Allies vs Nazis since this is a big aspect with regards to football. And indeed, with football, the corruption has ran deep outside of that. Many don't seem to keep in mind the extensive background that sports like football have been tied to all manner of mess, from racism to war. For reference, one can investigate Fascism and Football: How Italy won the 1934 and 1938 World Cup - Outside of the Boot and Soccer Politics / The Politics of Football - as well as Fascism & Football: The political history of Spanish football - Outside of the Boot or the following:

    BBC Fascism and Football - YouTube
    Communism and Football -part 1 of 2 - YouTube
    Communism and Football - part 2 of 2 - YouTube

    The same dynamics occurring then in those eras are happening today - except this time with things like the World Cup we've managed to promote violence underground and keep people above ground in ignorance - or have it where you don't allow others to see in the media what's happening...and thus, the violence/bloodshed continues without others losing the illusion of how things are automatically "better"...

    Others have been of the mindset that it's possible for competitive sporting event to replace war - and as another noted best, "It's easy to see the similarity between games and warfare: both often involve strategy, cunning, and even (or especially) national pride. Plus, sports are not totally without value in terms of international relations: history has shown that politically charged soccer games and "ping-pong policy" can impact diplomacy. But could a match substitute true combat, and the results honored as definitive during global discord?"


    That's an excellent way of putting it, as it seems with Sports you have to deal with theological stances of all kinds in one setting - but in a sense, whether it be with good theology or bad theology, it seems to be akin to other industries where there's a lot of sorting through ...from the music world to the business world and many other things. There are principles we're to follow as believers - and likewise, there are things we're not allowed to do as believers when it comes to the ways we do business with the world.

    But we can only do that if/when we realize where we're dealing with theology regardless of our disagreements when it comes to sports

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Sports have been a part of mankind - and thus, religion as well - since ancient times. So we cannot act as if it's a new reality. More in The Ancient World's 10 Shockingly Extreme Sports - TheRichest

    [​IMG]

    So true...truly a powerful and timely quotation that sums up the issue.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  6. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Very astute comment - we often choose to do nothing when assuming it's not our job to do anything. And yet we complain about people doing nothing when there are areas where we do nothing...
     
  7. Nanopants

    Nanopants Guest

    According to you. I'm only disagreeing with your assessment of the situation, and your method of pressuring believers to stop supporting "evil."

    If you want everyone to believe that sports are evil then, I'm sorry, but I have to question whether or not you have a firm grasp on the subject.

    Dealing with issues ought not equate to making issues worse. I still don't understand how you intend to make them better.


    What action, and where does it stop? Should we be learning to be merciful or should we be designing a final solution?

    I never said that there was, but if this has happened in one part of the world, how do you think it applies to sports in all others?

    In reality, we're still in the world and we're all connected to these things in similar ways. If you can draw a connection between one incident in one corner of it, and use that to charge Christians in all other corners with "supporting evil" for enjoying sports, then I can also draw a connection between helping the poor in one area, and supporting evil in another.

    This isn't right thinking.



    But what do you intend to do, and how does charging Christians with supporting evil fix anything?​
     
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  8. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Talking on disagreeing with assessment does nothing when one shows they do not even know what the situation was - nor has any intention of trying to eradicate it. Slavery was evil and the institutions condoning it had to be addressed (from the slave shipping companies to the cotton industry/plantations, etc.) - and others stood on saying "Well, it's not that bad" but others addressed it for what it was. Talking on others being "pressured" to deal with it because of where others claiming Christ said nothing was not an option then - nor is it now when others have their homes destroyed, lives taken and are exposed to murder in the same way by FIFA and other organizations intentionally harming others on it.

    The only difference is when others today choose to try and make light of it as if it is any less evil when it comes to sports. People loving soccer have noted that soccer is not the problem and it'd be missing the point thinking what was addressed in the OP was about condemning soccer. The issue was not supporting the organizations blantantly choosing to corrupt it and Christians not excusing themselves when Christ never allowed for such to happen - just as it was with the Good Samaritan being a neighbor because he actively helped out the man beaten on the road by bandits instead of saying "Well, I don't want to feel pressured to help him since his being robbed is just a part of the economy - people are doing well."

    If one does not have an issue with murder or gentrification occurring, of course, that's another issue. But Christ made clear we're to address the situations as they are and not simply hide from them. hen not willing to help anyone in need who is in need of mercy, be it someone physically beaten (which happens on all sides of the street when opening eyes to real life people ) or others beaten spiritually, there's always a time to make a difference.
    Of course, we can all have a "Come to Jesus" moment where others say "But I didn't see anyone here beaten on the side of the road Lord!!!" and he'll answer directly on the error of missing of the point he made on the subject. What Dr.Martin Luther King noted when it came to the call to be like Good Samaritans (Luke 10:25-39) in our love for others/in service to God—for as he said best:
    I think the Good Samaritan is a great individual. I of course, like and respect the Good Samaritan….but I don’t want to be a Good Samaritan….. I am tired of picking up people along the Jericho Road. I am tired of seeing people battered and bruised and bloody, injured and jumped on, along the Jericho Roads of life. This road is dangerous. I don’t want to pick up anyone else, along this Jericho Road; I want to fix… the Jericho Road. I want to pave the Jericho Road, add street lights to the Jericho Road; make the Jericho Road safe (for passage) by everybody….

    ”

    In his speech, entitled “Beyond Vietnam — A Time to Break Silence”, Brother Martin said the following for more clarification on the Good Samaritan issue:
    A true revolution of values will soon cause us to question the fairness and justice of many of our past and present policies. On the one hand, we are called to play the Good Samaritan on life’s roadside, but that will be only an initial act. One day we must come to see that the whole Jericho Road must be transformed so that men and women will not be constantly beaten and robbed as they make their journey on life’s highway. True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring.

    And As Dr.King said best in another one of his speeches, specifically his “I’ve Been to the Mountain Top” speech, delievered April 3, 1968 :
    Let us develop a kind of dangerous unselfishness. One day a man came to Jesus, and he wanted to raise some questions about some vital matters of life. At points he wanted to trick Jesus, and show him that he knew a little more than Jesus knew and throw him off base….

    Now that question could have easily ended up in a philosophical and theological debate. But Jesus immediately pulled that question from mid-air, and placed it on a dangerous curve between Jerusalem and Jericho. And he talked about a certain man, who fell among thieves. You remember that a Levite and a priest passed by on the other side. They didn’t stop to help him. And finally a man of another race came by. He got down from his beast, decided not to be compassionate by proxy. But he got down with him, administered first aid, and helped the man in need. Jesus ended up saying, this was the good man, this was the great man, because he had the capacity to project the “I” into the “thou,” and to be concerned about his brother.

    Now you know, we use our imagination a great deal to try to determine why the priest and the Levite didn’t stop. At times we say they were busy going to a church meeting, an ecclesiastical gathering, and they had to get on down to Jerusalem so they wouldn’t be late for their meeting. At other times we would speculate that there was a religious law that “One who was engaged in religious ceremonials was not to touch a human body twenty-four hours before the ceremony.” And every now and then we begin to wonder whether maybe they were not going down to Jerusalem — or down to Jericho, rather to organize a “Jericho Road Improvement Association.” That’s a possibility. Maybe they felt that it was better to deal with the problem from the causal root, rather than to get bogged down with an individual effect.

    But I’m going to tell you what my imagination tells me. It’s possible that those men were afraid. You see, the Jericho road is a dangerous road. I remember when Mrs. King and I were first in Jerusalem. We rented a car and drove from Jerusalem down to Jericho. And as soon as we got on that road, I said to my wife, “I can see why Jesus used this as the setting for his parable.” It’s a winding, meandering road. It’s really conducive for ambushing. You start out in Jerusalem, which is about 1200 miles — or rather 1200 feet above sea level. And by the time you get down to Jericho, fifteen or twenty minutes later, you’re about 2200 feet below sea level. That’s a dangerous road. In the days of Jesus it came to be known as the “Bloody Pass.”

    And you know, it’s possible that the priest and the Levite looked over that man on the ground and wondered if the robbers were still around. Or it’s possible that they felt that the man on the ground was merely faking. And he was acting like he had been robbed and hurt, in order to seize them over there, lure them there for quick and easy seizure. And so the first question that the priest asked — the first question that the Levite asked was, “If I stop to help this man, what will happen to me?” But then the Good Samaritan came by. And he reversed the question: “If I do not stop to help this man, what will happen to him?”



    Seeing that it was never said at ANY point that sports were evil, I'm sorry - but you're demonstrating a failure at dealing with the subject as it was written. Period.

    What was noted was addressing corruption in sports rather than acting as if issues pertaining to them have to be left alone - and if you respond back again with another comment claiming the OP was on sports being evil as a whole, that'll be a pity. Focus please and do not place words in the mouths of others
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  9. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    As I said plainly in the OP, I grew up playing sports and love sports. The fact that I actually stated that and you came back with the retort you did shows you didn't really read - and thus, you don't understand the topic. Moreover, I already said that sports are a territory that can be both good and evil depending on how you approach it - as said plainly in #2 and #5. This concept was well understood when it came to the sport of soccer and the way it was greatly corrupted in the WWII era/prior, with others in that time who loved sports loving the game enough to not support the foolishness or ignore the Politics of Football in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany . For a basic review, one can examine this wonderful/ perceptive documentary from 2003 which explores the complex relationship between football (soccer) and the three main fascist dictatorships of the 1930s: Italy, Germany and Spain. Also, for more, one can go to Fascism and Football: How Italy won the 1934 and 1938 World Cup - Outside of the Boot.

    It is the same with FIFA - and arguing past that is akin to one claiming that speaking against the organization of the KKK/the evils they did in the name of Christ is a matter of "pressuring" Christians wrongly because of focusing on their use of crosses and then saying "So are crosses a bad thing?! I question your grasp of the issue" ...it's silly.


    Already outlined that in the original post - as well as in subsequent posts. The videos (which you did not watch) also addressed the matter of how to go about that process and what other activists have done - from boycotting FIFA (just as it was with Boycotts of the Buses in the South during Jim Crow) to raising awareness of the evils they have done in destroying homes ...to contacting local senators/those in congress with regards to creating pressures on the business contacts with FIFA that the U.S has so as to make it where they cannot go forward if continuining with the pattern they have had over the year....and of course, the bottom line reality of being a voice for others who have been harmed.

    Dave Zirin on Brazil's Mass Protests Against World Cup Displacement - YouTube


    Others have done this before many times - good places for review being Message to Obama: You Can't Have Muhammad Ali or Here Come Los Suns: Dave Zirin on Sports and Resistance | Making Contact Radio: Media that helps build movements

    There has already been the case where athletes actually DID forms of social protest that were very big - like what occurred with the unprecedented decision by the entire Suns organization -- from owner Robert Sarver to star players Amare Stoudamire and Steve Nash -- to wear uniforms blaring Los Suns and come out against Arizona's anti-immigrant Senate Bill 1070, creating a sports broadcast that was highly controversial...and there are many more things besides that which show where others do practical ways of addressing corruption in sports. Fron soccer riots in Egypt and the 2012 NFL lockout, to the inner-workings of the NCAA and so much more - as discussed in Game Over: How Politics Has Turned the Sports World Upside Down

    [​IMG]




    The book "Game Over" (more in Book Discussion Game | Video | C-SPAN.org ) is a good place for basic review when it comes to ways others did practical protests to evils within sports just as they did with other things.

    Worker strikes are also a part of that dynamic, in the same way others such as MLK did Sanitation strikes (part of what's known as the Poor People's Campaign ) when it came to the same dynamics occurring - more discussed in Brazilian Workers Strike and Protest Runup to World Cup
    Already discussed the action to be taken - and as it concerns being merciful, being merciful was not and is never the same as doing good works. Being merciful was never a matter of having to cease abolition of slavery as slave workers noted where the world was corrupt and even others who promoted the system were often trapped in it.

    You deal with evil where you see it - just as believers have done many times before.
    Already noted that within the OP as did others. Wherever there is corruption in the world of sports, you address it and you seek to deal with it. This is what occurred with others like Jackie Robinson in Baseball, Mohammand Ali in Boxing and several others who did what they could to greatly impact the systems they were in. As said other, other social activists and sports historians have noted this many times in the past - and for reference

    Where Sports and Politics Collide -- An Interview w/ Dave Zirin - YouTube
    Dave Zirin: Debunking the Myth that Sports and Politics Don't Overlap - YouTube
    Not Just a Game: Politics and Power in American Sports with John Carlos and Dave Zirin - YouTube
    Public Theologian MLK actually discussed the reality of how we're all interconnected.

    We’re all interconnected…and As Martin Luther King Jr. wrote in his sermon “Where Do We Go From Here”:


    “All men are interdependent. Every nation is an heir of a vast treasury of ideas and labor to which both the living and the dead of all nations have contributed. …We are everlasting debtors to known and unknown men and women. When we arise in the morning, we go into the bathroom where we reach for a sponge which is provided for us by a Pacific islander. We reach for a soap that is created by a European. Then at the table we drink coffee which is provided for us by a South American, or tea by a Chinese or cocoa by a west African. Before we leave for our jobs we are already beholden to more than half the world….We are inevitably our brother’s keeper, because we are our brother’s brother. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly.”

    When one sees directly that the promotion of a sport in one area is promoting evil because of others being sold into slavery as a result, it's no longer a matter of the sport - what matters is the way it is being used. And thus, it has to be addressed. It's no different than slavery - and by your argument, you actually speak in favor of it since others in previous times noted the same when it came to people pointing out that their enjoying sugarcane was a part of the system of abuse - and the only true way to correct it was to stop buying the product while also demanding that fair treatment occur before business go further (more on the issue discussed in Coffee, Compassion and Justice: Should People Begin to Boycott Coffee? )

    It's the same with the sports and enjoying it. There's nothing wrong with enjoying sports - just like there's nothing wrong with enjoying food. Nonetheless, when you discover that the food you are eating comes from slavery, you don't close your eyes to it and then make a false argument that tries to claim "Food is a GOOD THING!! Why not enjoy it?" since even the people enslaved to make that food for you would note the same. What matters is changing up your practices and taking it seriously.

    If a Christian sees murder and death occurring openly with the support of a sports organization sponsoring it - and then says "Well, nothing wrong with sports" - they become a part of that system. It is no longer about the sport at that point since they could enjoy the sport without justifying the evils done by others using it.....or choosing to enjoy the outlet provided by those who murdered to make it. If they actually love the sport for what it was meant to be, they'd not go with it.
    Seeing that you already ignored where others noted what they did - and intend to do again alongside others - the question is redundant. Noting evils to be evil is no different than what others did when it came to charging those content to leave slavery alone as a problem - and the same with any number of issues.
     
  10. Nanopants

    Nanopants Guest

    Alright then, aside from the loose collection of morally charged words, in a nutshell, what is the situation? I'm not going to sit through hours worth of word sorting so can you do me a favor and please state it briefly and with precision?

    Again with the loose connections...

    What does this subject have to do with slavery?

    How do you know they were intentionally harming others? Brevity would be appreciated here.

    And your response is to do what other than take it out on other Christians? I don't see people here ignoring the man on the side of the road. What I do see are average Christians being accused of supporting murder, for simply enjoying sports. This was perhaps not the best example to use to justify doing something comparatively similar.

    So are you starting to get it yet? Blessed are the merciful.

    Who is your neighbor?
     
  11. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Aside from the fact that didn't do what was noted in the OP and actually deal with the videos that discussed the situation, one needs to go back - pay attention to what was said - and then comment. O Thus far, it's evident you again avoided the situation before charging in to speak on it - and if you are not going to do that basic as others did before jumping in, then one can respectfully get over it.

    There are other threads for others to deal with popcorn answers/theology - this is not one of them. No one is going to do your homework for you nor spend hours worth of addressing false scenarios because people can't do the simple things with reading when others have already done otherwise/honored the OP.
    More of the same with the avoidance of the issue - as it concerns where slavery was addressed by other Christians who noted the lack of addressing that some Christians did and the ways other Christians justified the system as "necessary" - in the same way people justify the World Cup (as you did) and ignore where death and murder occurred within it on an extensive state (alongside destroying people's homes/leaving them without anywhere to go and imprisonment). That's a human rights issue and violations - but if one cannot get that basic, then one doesn't really get it.
    Already explained - addressing the issue rather than deflected would be appropriate here, as well as dealing with what was already said here.
    Ad hominem does nothing to address the issue. As I said plainly in the OP, I grew up playing sports and love sports. The fact that I actually stated that and you came back with the retort you did shows you didn't really read - and thus, you don't understand the topic. Moreover, I already said that sports are a territory that can be both good and evil depending on how you approach it - as said plainly in #2 and #5. This concept was well understood when it came to the sport of soccer and the way it was greatly corrupted in the WWII era/prior, with others in that time who loved sports loving the game enough to not support the foolishness or ignore the Politics of Football in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany . For a basic review, one can examine this wonderful/ perceptive documentary from 2003 which explores the complex relationship between football (soccer) and the three main fascist dictatorships of the 1930s: Italy, Germany and Spain. Also, for more, one can go to Fascism and Football: How Italy won the 1934 and 1938 World Cup - Outside of the Boot.

    It is the same with FIFA - and arguing past that is akin to one claiming that speaking against the organization of the KKK/the evils they did in the name of Christ is a matter of "pressuring" Christians wrongly because of focusing on their use of crosses and then saying "So are crosses a bad thing?! I question your grasp of the issue" ...it's silly.

    Seeing where others who enjoy sports noted the same with it being a problem and it's a argument via emotion to claim that others saying "The World Cup is a problem" are taking it out on other Christians. If you feel no guilt over others who were murdered or who had their homes destroyed, then that's your choice - but avoiding addressing the matter of the corruption in soccer and our entertainment-focused society that promotes a culture of silence on those matters will always be problematic.

    Others who read the OP earlier understood the point and I suggest you learn to do so as well - for it was already stated where the OP was not focused on others simply enjoying sports. It's a falsehood to say otherwise and it will be called out as such every time you insist on claiming it when it was never even said - it's one thing for someone to not read and make a comment based on ignorance of what was said...but to actively promote more of the same after it was addressed is another problem.

    And as said before, "Blessed are the merciful" had a context that was never divorced from speaking out against corruption or social issues. Hopefully you learn to get that simple point since being merciful was not the same as ignoring issues. The ministry of Jesus was always edgy and slightly counter-cultural and this is nowhere more apparent than when Jesus clears out the market in the Temple - twice (the first time being John 2) when it came to financial abuses of others


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    Jesus already noted it - and where others have already been oppressed (as with the families in the World Cup who were negatively impacted), they need to be taken care of. Avoiding that is not helping neighbors..​
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  12. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    It's unfortunate when the dynamics of laziness can tend to create an apathy that demands for others to tell them what the problems are before they even choose to keep their eyes open when its right in their face - and as you wisely noted, when we're more focused on being entertained rather than actually doing what's right, it's no surprise to see all the craziness that occurs.
     
  13. Nanopants

    Nanopants Guest

    How can I be avoiding the situation when I clearly requested clarification? I thought you were not in favor of ad hominems, which, btw, is only a fallacy when an attack of character is used in place of a valid argument.

    Then I will assume that the word salads are nothing very meaningful.

    Quotes or it never happened. If you were to ask me, and to pay attention to what I have stated, I would say using metaphor that burning down the house is not the right solution for solving a rat problem in the cellar. That is not avoidance. Further I'll add that accusing the residents of supporting the rat problem, for simply taking up residence, would be a fallacious and false accusation.

    Disregarded.

    This is why I asked for a precise statement of the problem you want to say FIFA, or whomever you want to hit with your "supporting evil" spray, is responsible for. So far all I have is: people are poor, people are upset, people were murdered (but by who, I do not know), people are angry and demonstrating, people were forcibly removed from their homes (again, by who and why, I do not know), slavery has occurred, pedophilia exists, and that Christians are supporting all of this through a desire for entertainment through the World Cup.

    I do not agree.

    I did not say that there is no problem.

    I do not personally feel guilty because 1) I didn't watch the World Cup, 2) I'm not even a soccer fan, and 3) because I am not easily swayed.

    If a murder occurs in Chicago, I don't think anyone here is going to be up in arms if it's reported in the newspaper. This may not be the case if the blame is assigned to Chicago Cubs fans at large.

    I don't know what you're even talking about.

    Then I appreciate your consent.

    Who is avoiding that and how should it be approached?
     
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    As long as one repeats the same mantras which were never advocated in the original post - the issue of responding with false scenarios - one has no business asking for clarification. You already noted where you didn't check out the videos - and even outside of the videos, it was noted directly what the issue was. Others noted it as well - and thus, till you can get the issue addressed, it'll be ignored.

    If you refuse to actually deal with the topic and thus take it OFF-topic further, it'll be reported since it is against the rules and rude. Simple as that



    As long as one repeats the same mantras which were never advocated in the original post - the issue of responding with false scenarios - one has no business asking for clarification. You already noted where you didn't check out the videos - and even outside of the videos, it was noted directly what the issue was. Others noted it as well - and thus, till you can get the issue addressed, it'll be ignored.

    If you refuse to actually deal with the topic and thus take it OFF-topic further, it'll be reported since it is against the rules and rude. Simple as that.

    As long as one repeats the same mantras which were never advocated in the original post - the issue of responding with false scenarios - one has no business asking for clarification. You already noted where you didn't check out the videos - and even outside of the videos, it was noted directly what the issue was. Others noted it as well - and thus, till you can get the issue addressed, it'll be ignored. As it is, ad-hominem already occurred with the silliness of claiming others were "taking it out on Christians" when it came to discussing the issue of violence/gentrification in the World Cup and others claiming Christ who condoned it.

    That said, this is the last and only time I'm going to note plainly where one can actually go back/investigate the videos that the OP Issue dealt with. If one does not wish to address that, then it is asked one leave the thread instead of derailing it with arguments not based on what was noted. Moreover, If you refuse to actually deal with the topic and thus take it OFF-topic further, it'll be reported since it is against the rules and rude. Simple as that

    Inconsequential to the OP - but again, it has been noted where one did not deal with the issue.
    Inconsequential as it is when others in differing discussions were talking to others and people had enough wisdom to keep up with it...and others demanding quotes were ignored since their refusal to read what was said is not the same as evidence of what actually happened. There was already reference to the issue as noted in #1 (as well as footnotes on showing where to go).

    What was noted before:


    And in response, your original words on the matter:


    Despite what was said when one noted that the OP was centered (in large part) on the actual documentary on the issue, there was little point speaking when one didn't even address the facts...each and every issue dealt with which you predictably brought up in opposition as if it was not noted.
    This is further demonstration as to why it is evident where you have failed to actually deal with what others have said in context and pay attention. For no one said that one had to burn down the house (your words/strawman) when it came to noting where others needed to boycott organizations that are abusing others blantantly. Also, if bent on using the Rat analogy, no one is advocating abuse for residents because of rats in the basement. What is a problem is others choosing to FEED the rats (i.e. leaving cheese in the rooms, not cleaning up or reporting it if seeing one, etc.) and avoid taking responsibility since they are just concerned with the residence.

    Avoiding the issue
    And as said before, when you choose to make up things as you go along, there's no real need to go along with it

    It was never a matter of saying "people are poor" - as that was never stated. To claim such was noted is a falsehood. The same goes for saying it was not stated who was murdering others, as that was noted as well (just as it was noted who removing others from their home ) - both of which are foolish since the bottom line is that FIFA was noted to be funding both cases of gentrification and murder - and again, based on your lack of actually reading the information, one is again making false scenarios.

    The videos (which you did not watch) addressed the matter of how to go about that process and what the issues were...as well as what others have done in going about the matter - from boycotting FIFA as other former FIFA Workers/people in Brazil have done (just as it was with Boycotts of the Buses in the South during Jim Crow) to raising awareness of the evils they have done in destroying homes by the construction crews hired by FIFA ...to contacting local senators/those in congress with regards to creating pressures on the business contacts with FIFA that the U.S has so as to make it where they cannot go forward if continuining with the pattern they have had over the year....and of course, the bottom line reality of being a voice for others who have been harmed by the murders done by police who were hired to clear out areas where others live to make room for the stadiums FIFA uses. For reference on those practically addressing the issues and spelling out what the problems are

    Dave Zirin on Brazil's Mass Protests Against World Cup Displacement - YouTube

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LawaXrGU9k

    Brazil's Dance with the Devil: World Cup, Olympics, and the Fight for Democracy (w/ Dave Zirin) - YouTube


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm-q75Z1NUs
    What is being noted specifically as an issue is when revenue is occurring through unjust means in an immense sense (and with FULL knowledge whenever others participate ) and the goal is our entertainment. As it concrerns FIFA this has also been very present with those impacted by what has gone down[/URL] - as evidenced by the worker strikes ..more discussed in Brazilian Workers Strike and Protest Runup to World Cup and them asking for support rather than avoidance for the sake of the game - and to be clear, these people protesting are also soccer fans who have noted where FIFA had multiple documented cases for the past couple of years where others got harmed.
    What was noted was others having lofty expectations and that one didn't want to dilute what Christ did in changes in other times - in addition to defending the system with the "Rat in the basement" analogy of how it'd be wrong to cut off huge revenues for the sake of addressing corrupt activity. The issue of how extensive the corruption was in FIFA and widely-impacting was minimized and the actions defended in the same manner as others defended slavery. It was also assumed people were demonizing soccer - but that's not the point of the OP. In your words:


    If one chooses to defend what FIFA does and what it advocated when it came to soccer, one doesn't value the people who were harmed. One cannot enjoy soccer when it is being used to harm others.
    If one didn't watch the World Cup, one has no business being in the thread since it was dedicated to those who love the World Cup - both those loving it for what it used to be (as well as loving it for the soccer involved/unity) and those loving it while ignoring the corruption that happens in it. If one didn't even keep up with the World Cup, one has no business trying to speak on the matter to others as to why there are no issues - and it doesn't matter whether one feels guilty or not when others have been murdered by an institution. I don't have any investment in things such as boxing - and I don't feel guilty when a boxer dies. However, when I hear and see where the boxer was murdered by those intentionally funneling illegal finances into the industry and bribing others off, it is a problem if I essentially say "Whatever - it's not my issue and I don't box."

    People have been bothered throughout the South when hearing of murders of others in Chicago.
    There were several things where it was evident that there was a lack of understanding ton the matter - but again, if that cannot be understood even after explaining, then that's a problem,.



    OK

    Already noted - as you avoided it earlier. But again, we're done so long as the avoidance occurs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  15. Nanopants

    Nanopants Guest

    Ultimately what it boils down to is that the thread title assumes that Christians have supported evil through sports culture. I responded to the question in a clear, direct and reasonable manner, but it has become clear to me that you have no intent of having a fair, reasonable conversation on the economics or morality of the situation, aside from some kind of media/propaganda war. So I'll bow out unless you have a change of mind.

    And if people really were wrongfully harmed for the sake of profit surrounding the 2014 World Cup, it's too bad that in this thread they are not being fairly represented.
     
  16. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Incorrect (again) - and as said before, what it boils down to when going past what was actually said is a willfulness in promoting a falsehood based on what has not been said. Had one chosen to read rather than speculate, one would realize the bottom line fact that the OP as was stated, word for word, was never about condemning sports culture. For sports are a territory that can be both good and evil depending on how you approach it - as said plainly in #2 and #5. This concept was well understood when it came to the sport of soccer and the way it was greatly corrupted in the WWII era/prior, with others in that time who loved sports loving the game enough to not support the foolishness or ignore the Politics of Football in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany (as one can examine this wonderful/ perceptive documentary from 2003 which explores the complex relationship between football (soccer) and the three main fascist dictatorships of the 1930s: Italy, Germany and Spain - and for others, one can see Fascism and Football: How Italy won the 1934 and 1938 World Cup - Outside of the Boot).

    This dynamic of sports being used for corruption has been present in regards to the World Cup when it comes to the many lives that have been damaged by it and the OP was always focused on addressing that - specifically for those who actually loved the sport and know what it was meant to be used for.


    So long as that simple reality is left out, there's no escaping where it's clear one went into the thread speaking before actually listening on what the issues were about.
    Incorrect - as responding in speculation on what something is about rather than addressing the issue is never reasonable - nor is being opinionated the same as dealing with the facts. The videos in the OP that addressed the issue directly were avoided before even choosing to speak and that will never be dealing with the subject properly.

    There's no need for drama on the matter since you never tackled what the economic situation was - nor did you actually acknowledge what actually happened with the gentrification/murders and other morality problems which protesters and social activists in Brazil have been noting. Claiming a "media/propaganda war" is a logical fallacy of Appeal to ridicule and is inconsequential when it comes to addressing what happened in FIFA with the homes destroyed and what journalists/reporters and everyday citizens noted on the issue there. If one is unable to actually address the information as it is, indeed, it's best to bow out until one is ready to actually handle things for what they are and remain focused.

    Unless people in their situations there were not noted or their words not placed up, it is another falsehood promoted (and another attempt in appeals to ridicule - as well as appeals to emotion) that are inconsequential. The video documentation as well as direct interviews with those harmed have already been placed up in the thread - avoided by yourself - and they are not justifying the system of FIFA, regardless of their love for soccer.

    Of course, only one person thus far (yourself) has said that the FIFA organization provides jobs for others and thus it is not something that needs to be removed
    - despite what others have said who were impacted by the event down in Brazil. That will never suffice as being anything close to real concern for the people down there being fairly represented - and it's too bad one was focused more so on their own opinions than actually listening to what they already said.

    But others have been represented on the matter - and what matters is whether or not we value them enough to actually deal with what they have said:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk9CXNJiz4M
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw2c70kMA_0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dbq4NKM5so

    Moving on..
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    There was actually an excellent presentation on the matter of theology and sports intersecting - as seen here:

    World Cup Theology: A Conversation on Theology and Sport - YouTube


    If you have any thoughts, what would be your view on how to approach the issue of sports and our theology in a manner that could address it as best as possible? I agree with you that we've sacrificed much for the sake of bread and circuses - but if/when people seem to have nothing else to replace that or not knowing how to go about things, it can be difficult.

    And when it comes to economic factors like greed impacting so much, it can be tricky

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    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014