Why the Constant Attack?

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Choir Loft

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I have noticed that the Dispensationalism sub-forum is filled with attacks and attackers, including everything from denouncing the dispensational interpretation of the scriptures to false allegations about the history of the doctrine. These have often included rules-breaking flames against both the doctrine and its alleged founders.

I do not see such attacks in the Covenant Theology sub-forum, although, as I rarely bother to read the threads there, I do not know that they never happen there.

But my question is, why this one-sided attack? Why do these people find it necessary to continually attack Dispensationalism?

Why?

Mostly because it's false dogma. Based upon the writings of John Nelson Darby, who never achieved anything close to a formal education in theology, Dispensationalism attempted to present history in terms of changes in the divine plan of redemption. The problem with this point of view is that broad Biblical interpretation doesn't really reveal any changes. Numbers 23:19, Hebrews 13:8 & James 1:17 all declare that God doesn't change. If God doesn't change, then a method to explain alterations in divine providence thru history are based upon an incorrect assumption.

Additionally, Darby's Dispensationalism attempted to correct three separate definitive interpretations of millennial interpretation. Twentieth century events removed one of them from contention, while diluted religious-philosophical attitudes killed a second one.

At its root Dispensationalism is a clumsy attempt to redefine Biblical interpretations of the millennium, promulgation of Star Trek beam out escapist dogma suitable only for cowards and those unaccustomed to critical thinking, as well as a document that tries to alter God's character as is presented in scripture. None of the aforementioned ideological tangents works logically and completely. Two of the world's major religions disagree with Darby's Dispensationalism, not to mention a legion of Christian scholars, denominations and recent conventions.

Dispensationalism is false doctrine. You can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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Biblewriter

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Why?

Mostly because it's false dogma. Based upon the writings of John Nelson Darby, who never achieved anything close to a formal education in theology, Dispensationalism attempted to present history in terms of changes in the divine plan of redemption. The problem with this point of view is that broad Biblical interpretation doesn't really reveal any changes. Numbers 23:19, Hebrews 13:8 & James 1:17 all declare that God doesn't change. If God doesn't change, then a method to explain alterations in divine providence thru history are based upon an incorrect assumption.

Additionally, Darby's Dispensationalism attempted to correct three separate definitive interpretations of millennial interpretation. Twentieth century events removed one of them from contention, while diluted religious-philosophical attitudes killed a second one.

At its root Dispensationalism is a clumsy attempt to redefine Biblical interpretations of the millennium, promulgation of Star Trek beam out escapist dogma suitable only for cowards and those unaccustomed to critical thinking, as well as a document that tries to alter God's character as is presented in scripture. None of the aforementioned ideological tangents works logically and completely. Two of the world's major religions disagree with Darby's Dispensationalism, not to mention a legion of Christian scholars, denominations and recent conventions.

Dispensationalism is false doctrine. You can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You need to do a little research on your historical facts. First, Darby did indeed have a formal "religious" education, having been an ordained Episcopal priest before he was involved in the movement that later came to be called "the Plymouth brethren."

But more to the point, Dispensationalism, including a rapture BEFORE the great tribulation, was NOT "invented" by Darby. Both of these concepts have been documented throughout history, including some of the very oldest Christian commentaries that have survived to the present time.

And third, and MOST to the point, Dispensationalism has never taught, and does not now teach, that there have EVER been ANY "changes in the divine plan of redemption."

So you need to do a LOT more studying before you attempt to discuss a subject about which you have demonstrated that you are almost totally ignorant.
 
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Jack Terrence

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If your interpretation of Ezekiel 12 were correct, then Jesus would have to have been born, and returned to judge the world, in Ezekiel's time, instead of coming hundreds of years later, as He actually did, and not even yet having come to judge the world.
By "judgment" I was referring to their going into exile. Was that not judgment?

Israel was saying that the time is prolonged for the fulfillment of EVERY vision and that EVERY vision would fail in their time. But God replied saying,

The days are AT HAND for the fulfillment of EVERY vision.

Then God specifically answers their claim that the judgment (exile) would be postponed saying,

"They say that the vision you NOW see is not to be fulfilled for many years. Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord, no word of mine shall be delayed.'"

And there is zero excuse for claiming that the generic word "you" in Ezekiel 43:19 meant Ezekiel himself. The preceding verse explicitly says that the instructions applied to "the altar on the day when it is made." But no such altar was made in the time of Ezekiel.
Your "generic you" theory is easily refuted. Ezekiel said that God was telling him to provide the bull TO the Levites for the sin offering,

And he said to ME, Son of Man, YOU shall give a bull for a sin offering TO the Levites....

Ezekiel himself was to give the bull TO the Levites. There is zero excuse for claiming that Ezekiel's visions were to be fulfilled in our future. The internal evidence of the prophecy plainly puts fulfillment in THEIR near future. So it was done. Dispensationalism is plain nonsense.
 
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Biblewriter

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By "judgment" I was referring to their going into exile. Was that not judgment?

Israel was saying that the time is prolonged for the fulfillment of EVERY vision and that EVERY vision would fail in their time. But God replied saying,

The days are AT HAND for the fulfillment of EVERY vision.

Then God specifically answers their claim that the judgment (exile) would be postponed saying,

"They say that the vision you NOW see is not to be fulfilled for many years. Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord, no word of mine shall be delayed.'"

Your "generic you" theory is easily refuted. Ezekiel said that God was telling him to provide the bull TO the Levites for the sin offering,

And he said to ME, Son of Man, YOU shall give a bull for a sin offering TO the Levites....

Ezekiel himself was to give the bull TO the Levites. There is zero excuse for claiming that Ezekiel's visions were to be fulfilled in our future. The internal evidence of the prophecy plainly puts fulfillment in THEIR near future. So it was done. Dispensationalism is plain nonsense.

This does not even deserve an answer.
 
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Choir Loft

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Words of BIBLEWRITER appear below in colored text:

You need to do a little research on your historical facts. First, Darby did indeed have a formal "religious" education, having been an ordained Episcopal priest before he was involved in the movement that later came to be called "the Plymouth brethren."


My words appear in black text:

Darby was never ordained as a priest in the Episcopal church. He was a sort of lay person of high order in the Anglican church, but that didn't amount to a position of legitimate leadership. In addition there is NO evidence that he ever studied theology, which is required for Holy Orders. Assertions to the contrary have no foundation in actual fact or record. Darby was NOT a scholar, although he did represent himself as one. We have a name for such men; con artists.

Darby was originally Anglo-Irish and vacillated between British Protestantism and Irish Roman Catholicism. He learned his itinerant snake oil salesmanship skills by attempting to conjure his ideology between the English and the Irish. The Anglican Church is the Protestant pseudo-catholic religion of Britain, not the Episcopal church. The Episcopal church is an American version and not officially connected to English Anglicanism in any way. References to one or the other are confused undocumented and unfounded by those who wish to use confusion to justify heretical assertions.

By the way, neither the Anglican nor Episcopal Church has ever endorsed Darby's ideas concerning Dispensationalism, Millennialism, Rapturism, etc.

But more to the point, Dispensationalism, including a rapture BEFORE the great tribulation, was NOT "invented" by Darby. Both of these concepts have been documented throughout history, including some of the very oldest Christian commentaries that have survived to the present time.

Dispensationalism is documented by every legitimate source known as Darby's invention. His BOOK on Dispensationalism can garner nearly one hundred fifty dollars on the antique book market. If the reader gets the opportunity to buy one for less than $150 it should not be ignored. Even old comic books can command a price higher than the value of the gibberish they contain.

Darby organized a group called the Exclusive Brethren and used them as well as The Plymouth Brethren as a springboard for his book sales. Eventually he brought his heresy to America where it did well among those religious persons who are attracted to expressions of their religion that are more theatrical than scholarly. The ideology persists to this day for the same reason.

And third, and MOST to the point, Dispensationalism has never taught, and does not now teach, that there have EVER been ANY "changes in the divine plan of redemption."

The above is a false statement. The stated purpose of Dispensationalism is to "rightly divide" (<--Darby's words) the Word of God into historic epochs such as for example the dispensation of the Law and the dispensation of Grace. Darby's own book, which I've had the opportunity to peruse, has a spread of several pages containing a graphic that illustrates this major point. If the reader chooses to educate himself without relying upon innuendo and hearsay and ACTUALLY READS THE BOOK, this point will become immediately obvious. In point of fact, there is no canonical or legitimate ideology of Christianity that supports any such division of the intent of Holy Writ. To suggest such a division between Law & Grace exists is to subvert the Word of God. Finally, there are no differences in any record of history from any civilization on the planet that suggests, even remotely, that the cross divided the events of mankind into pre and post .... anything. In effect, Darby's attempt was to rewrite scripture and change the basic teaching of the fall and redemption of man.

So you need to do a LOT more studying before you attempt to discuss a subject about which you have demonstrated that you are almost totally ignorant.

Ignorance is bliss, so they say, and there is no more blissful person than the one who chooses to bury their head in the sands of willful foolishness so as to support their own fantasy of the past present and future. There are NO ancient references to the Rapture or Dispensationalism prior to the life and times of John Nelson Darby. I challenge the reader to do his or her own study on the matter. The results will qualify to establish Darby as one of the foremost con artists of modern times.

Finally, the reader needs to know that during his time in Britain and Ireland, John Nelson Darby became the consort of a coven of witches. How little or how much of their occult doctrines and influences Darby adopted into his dogma is not known. I can discover nothing more than who he hung out with. A man is known by the company he keeps, and Darby did indeed keep company with disciples of the devil. Spiritualism had become quite popular in his day, so his associations were not questioned.

Apparently nobody today cares either.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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Biblewriter

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Words of BIBLEWRITER appear below in colored text:

You need to do a little research on your historical facts. First, Darby did indeed have a formal "religious" education, having been an ordained Episcopal priest before he was involved in the movement that later came to be called "the Plymouth brethren."


My words appear in black text:

Darby was never ordained as a priest in the Episcopal church. He was a sort of lay person of high order in the Anglican church, but that didn't amount to a position of legitimate leadership. In addition there is NO evidence that he ever studied theology, which is required for Holy Orders. Assertions to the contrary have no foundation in actual fact or record. Darby was NOT a scholar, although he did represent himself as one. We have a name for such men; con artists.

Darby was originally Anglo-Irish and vacillated between British Protestantism and Irish Roman Catholicism. He learned his itinerant snake oil salesmanship skills by attempting to conjure his ideology between the English and the Irish. The Anglican Church is the Protestant pseudo-catholic religion of Britain, not the Episcopal church. The Episcopal church is an American version and not officially connected to English Anglicanism in any way. References to one or the other are confused undocumented and unfounded by those who wish to use confusion to justify heretical assertions.

By the way, neither the Anglican nor Episcopal Church has ever endorsed Darby's ideas concerning Dispensationalism, Millennialism, Rapturism, etc.

But more to the point, Dispensationalism, including a rapture BEFORE the great tribulation, was NOT "invented" by Darby. Both of these concepts have been documented throughout history, including some of the very oldest Christian commentaries that have survived to the present time.

Dispensationalism is documented by every legitimate source known as Darby's invention. His BOOK on Dispensationalism can garner nearly one hundred fifty dollars on the antique book market. If the reader gets the opportunity to buy one for less than $150 it should not be ignored. Even old comic books can command a price higher than the value of the gibberish they contain.

Darby organized a group called the Exclusive Brethren and used them as well as The Plymouth Brethren as a springboard for his book sales. Eventually he brought his heresy to America where it did well among those religious persons who are attracted to expressions of their religion that are more theatrical than scholarly. The ideology persists to this day for the same reason.

And third, and MOST to the point, Dispensationalism has never taught, and does not now teach, that there have EVER been ANY "changes in the divine plan of redemption."

The above is a false statement. The stated purpose of Dispensationalism is to "rightly divide" (<--Darby's words) the Word of God into historic epochs such as for example the dispensation of the Law and the dispensation of Grace. Darby's own book, which I've had the opportunity to peruse, has a spread of several pages containing a graphic that illustrates this major point. If the reader chooses to educate himself without relying upon innuendo and hearsay and ACTUALLY READS THE BOOK, this point will become immediately obvious. In point of fact, there is no canonical or legitimate ideology of Christianity that supports any such division of the intent of Holy Writ. To suggest such a division between Law & Grace exists is to subvert the Word of God. Finally, there are no differences in any record of history from any civilization on the planet that suggests, even remotely, that the cross divided the events of mankind into pre and post .... anything. In effect, Darby's attempt was to rewrite scripture and change the basic teaching of the fall and redemption of man.

So you need to do a LOT more studying before you attempt to discuss a subject about which you have demonstrated that you are almost totally ignorant.

Ignorance is bliss, so they say, and there is no more blissful person than the one who chooses to bury their head in the sands of willful foolishness so as to support their own fantasy of the past present and future. There are NO ancient references to the Rapture or Dispensationalism prior to the life and times of John Nelson Darby. I challenge the reader to do his or her own study on the matter. The results will qualify to establish Darby as one of the foremost con artists of modern times.

Finally, the reader needs to know that during his time in Britain and Ireland, John Nelson Darby became the consort of a coven of witches. How little or how much of their occult doctrines and influences Darby adopted into his dogma is not known. I can discover nothing more than who he hung out with. A man is known by the company he keeps, and Darby did indeed keep company with disciples of the devil. Spiritualism had become quite popular in his day, so his associations were not questioned.

Apparently nobody today cares either.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I honestly believe that I have devoted more time to studying what Darby and his immediate associates actually wrote than any other living human being. And I can assure anyone reading this that almost everything in this long screed is an outright lie.

Among these lies is his discussion of Darby's "BOOK on Dispensationalism," which he describes and claims to have read. Darby never wrote such a book, and the one he described sounds like one actually written by a man named Clarence Larkin.

Particularly odious is the outrageous lie that Darby was somehow associated with witchcraft. Anyone who has been deceived by this series of lies is almost totally ignorant of the actual facts concerned.

The one actual fact posted by Choir Loft is that Episcpol and Anglican are indeed not exactly the same. And I misspoke in saying Darby was originally an Episcopol priest when I should have said he was originally an Anglican priest.

Anyone who wants to actually know what these men wrote can easily read it online at:
STEM Publishing
 
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Choir Loft

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I STAND CORRECTED with regard to my statement that John Nelson Darby published a book on Dispensationalism. As far as I now understand Darby never published any book at all, which agrees with accounts of his almost complete lack of formal theological training. The book I do remember reading was loaned to me by my attorney and is titled;

THE GREATEST BOOK ON "DISPENSATIONAL TRUTH" IN THE WORLD
Clarence Larkin, 1918, 1920

The above work contains intricate wood cut diagrams that many have illegally copied and inserted into their own teaching aids. The price of a copy of the original release is nearly one hundred fifty dollars although one can buy a reprint today for about a third of that cost.

I STAND BY my assertion that Darby had contact with a coven of witches and I reiterate my statement that it is not generally known how much or how little of that association was absorbed into Darby's dogma.

The reader should understand that during the period of time when Darby was promoting his ideas spiritualism and occult practices were generally accepted by legitimate denominational churches - especially the Anglican communion and the American Episcopal Church. This includes but is not limited to seances, spirit writing, employment of mediums and so on all of which are forbidden by Biblical law. It was in response to this spiritually irresponsible heretical tide that the Fundamentalist movement had its beginning. It's why I write now.

Additionally I need to state that John Nelson Darby was never appointed to an untouchable position of authority by any legitimate Christian organization. He in fact refused it! Any such assertion is deliberately inaccurate as well as suggestions of an infraction of any rule pertaining to criticism of a legitimate leader. (Since when are we not to question our leaders? 1 Corinthians 3:4) In fact, of the two organizations Darby influenced (Plymouth Brethren & Exclusive Brethren) neither accepted or tolerated any link to any legitimate organized form of Christianity. From the beginning Darby's followers were loose cannons.

Instead of an appointment to leadership in the strictest sense of the word, Darby became at best a pretty good salesman on a par with cultists such as John Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, Charles Taze Russel and the Fox sisters. There have always been those who capitalized on the fears and ignorance of the uneducated and uninformed and John Nelson Darby was merely one of them. Traditional Christian doctrine stands soundly against his ideology of division of God's Word as well as his aberrant doctrinal interpretations of the millennium(*1), the tribulation(*2), rapture, etc.

Unfortunately Fundamentalist doctrine has been stained by the travesty of Darby's work for over one hundred years. It has become a joke among the unchurched and the more established and educated Christian denominations. It is unfortunate that the hope of the saving grace of Jesus Christ in the life of the believer has been traded for escapist doctrine that does nothing to establish faithful endurance.

Instead we argue over personalities long dead whose voices echo in the halls of prayer once packed with believers, but which now grow more empty each sabbath.(*3) Believers now escape in a more worldly fashion to other venues of worship, or none at all.

Could it be that many now realize they've been listening to a corrupted gospel all along and now seek real truth and substance elsewhere?

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Post Script and Footnotes
The reader of 'Christian literature' should understand that in these days of shoddy commercialism, current publications of Christian literature are now on a par with supermarket tabloids. They rarely publish true works of scholarship, choosing instead to invest their resources in pseudo-fiction and popular tripe. (As a published author myself, I learned this sad truth the hard way.) If it sells they'll print it. If it doesn't they won't. It's the basic rule of supply and demand. Like it or not it's a sad truth of the publishing business. Pre-digested information is subject to questionable veracity. As always there is no substitute for personal study.
(*1) By the year 1918 history itself had disproved two of the three main arguments reviewed by Darby regarding his interpretations of the millennium.
(*2) Darby's interpretation of the tribulation supports an anti-semitic point of view in that it encourages, wishes, prays and hopes for a second holocaust of Jewish mass murder.
(*3) polling statistics stated by PEW and Gallup services.
 
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Bumble Bee

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