Why the Constant Attack?

[Biblewriter]

I have noticed that the Dispensationalism sub-forum is filled with attacks and attackers, including everything from denouncing the dispensational interpretation of the scriptures to false allegations about the history of the doctrine. These have often included rules-breaking flames against both the doctrine and its alleged founders.

I do not see such attacks in the Covenant Theology sub-forum, although, as I rarely bother to read the threads there, I do not know that they never happen there.

But my question is, why this one-sided attack? Why do these people find it necessary to continually attack Dispensationalism?

 

[BABerean2]

 

[Biblewriter]

A one hour and 45 minute attack on dispensationalism is off the subject of this thread.

 

[BABerean2]

Why do these people find it necessary to continually attack Dispensationalism?

Any doctrine which claims a future period of salvation outside the New Blood Covenant Church of Jesus Christ, should expect those in the Church to question every aspect of the interpretation.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
.

 

[Biblewriter]

Aside from a radical fringe, Dispensationalists most absolutely do not, and never have, taught that anyone can be saved outside of the New Covenant in Christ's blood. And is is blatant dishonesty to try to make it seem that they do.

 

[Danoh]

Just now finished listening to the video.

Poor Jacob (man on the left) he sure gets worked up, lol.

Personally, I've always liked fiery types.

Still, at one point he was so worked up that this resulted not only in his making a mistake, but one which he quickly attempted to cover up when Joe pointed it out to him.

It is the nature of too much zeal.

Interesting contrast between him and Joe (man on the right). Joe being the way calmer of the two; just after John (man in the middle, who was basically moderating).

Some thoughts...

The entire issue can be caught as a kind of a summary at about 86:00 to about 95:00 (where they show another clip of Paul Wilkerson and then respond to it).

In that segment, both sides are seen living out the actual problem in all these issues, as they each accuse the other of having been up to no good intentionally.

They actually assume that about one another without any evidence to its actual fact from either side.

Neither allowing the other the benefit of the doubt that perhaps it only looks like the other was up to no good.

Neither allowing the other the benefit of the doubt that it just might have have been that the other had simply drawn his conclusions about what one passage or another is talking about and that said conclusions just happened to differ.

That neither side had been up to no good going in.

In such an atmosphere; neither side will accomplish anything positive.

There is that problem.

It is added to both their confusion.

Both Joe and Jacob, on their end, and Paul on his - all three are confused to begin with.

In the same breath, both hold that God is not through with Israel, but then start the Body in Acts 2, taking by that, that which belongs to Israel and seeing it as pertaining to the Body.

The unavoidable result: each side's having to find some manner of solving for the resulting problems of this mistake.

Both are basically Acts 2 Dispys, whether they acknowledge it or not.

Wilkerson being Pentecostal, is a least a bit more consistent in his error. But it is his conviction.

And despite their comments to the contrary, Joe and Jacob appear a bit Charismatic in their leanings.

All three men holding to 1948 as having been an act of God.

Meaning, even as all three rightly assert that God's plans for Israel are yet future, all three then fail to see the contradiction that 1948 represents, being that that took place in this age, not in Israel's.

And it does not help that both see the other as up to no good intentionally.

Until it is proven otherwise, all three of them ought to loosen up - people simply make mistakes.

Well, other than the likes of you, B2; you continue to conclude others are not only up to no good intentionally, but you also continue to fail to examine what just might be error on your part.

One thing is certain - you make the same mistakes all three of those men constantly make in that video (not including the moderator).

The mistake of seeking out answers to these issues in "church history" bringing that into the passages, along with concluding that any one who disagrees must be up to no good.

Fact is - for starters - Paul alone teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture, and he does so in 1 Thess. 4 and 5 in light of Romans 5 and 9 and 11 and 2, respectively.

You can conclude that my being up to no good. It matters not.

 

[BABerean2]

Aside from a radical fringe, Dispensationalists most absolutely do not, and never have, taught that anyone can be saved outside of the New Covenant in Christ's blood. And is is blatant dishonesty to try to make it seem that they do.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.


Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,



Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

.........................................
The Church is made up of those individuals in the New Blood Covenant of Jesus Christ, that is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6.

The Olive Tree in Romans chapter 11 is a symbol of the Church.
The Apostle Paul says that salvation comes by being grafted into the Olive Tree.

...........................................

Dispensationalists, such as John Walvoord, say the "Church Age" will come to an end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.

To claim otherwise, is blatant dishonesty.

 

[Biblewriter]

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

Dispensationalists, such as John Walvoord, say the "Church Age" will come to an end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.

To claim otherwise, is blatant dishonesty.

You are putting words in the mouth of John Walvord, just as you have with me and all the Dispensationalists you have quoted. There is absolutely nothing in the statement above, or in even one of the statements of the various Dispensationalists that you have quoted here, that even suggests the idea that that anyone will ever be saved in any other way than by faith in the blood shed on the cross by the Lord Jesus Christ.

The future blessing promised by God to Israel is a blessing on this earth, during the natural lives of the individuals that will comprise the nation of Israel at that time. These have nothing to do with the eternal salvation of their souls. That is an entirely different question.

Every Dispensationalist that you have quoted was referring to this earthly blessing, that is, to a blessing that applies only to their natural earthly lives. I, and every Dispensationalist I have ever met, very clearly teach that no one will ever receive the salvation of their soul except through a living and active faith in that Holy blood shed by our Lord on the cross.

 

[Biblewriter]

So some think the constant attack is justified by the fact that they imagine that we Dispensationalists teach serious false doctrine. But this does not justify their bad behavior.

If you go the the Covenant Theology sub-forum, you will not see Dispensationalists constantly attacking them and flaming both them and their doctrine. And this is not because Dispensationalists see Covenant Theology as innocent error. We see this as serious false doctrine, because it attacks the very foundation of our faith. And that foundation is the absolute reliability of everything God has ever said.

For the Bible contains many unconditional promises, made not only to Abraham, but to the nation of Israel. And the Bible flatly declares that various things are going to happen.

Now if these promises will not actually be kept, or of the various events prophesied in the scriptures will not actually happen, then one of two things is necessarily true.

Either:
The Bible is not really the word of God.

Or:

God lied when He made these promises and declared that these things will happen.

If God could legitimately tell Israel that He was actually talking about us, He could just as legitimately tell us that the promises made to us were actually made to a future people that has not yet been born. That is why we conclude that any claim that Israel will not indeed be blessed on this earth is an attack on the very foundations of the Christian faith.

 

[LostFarmer]

Very likely if one is to say a belief is not true they should find out what that belief is first not take what some one else says it is. The link below says the statements by Preston is not true for all dispensationalists, maybe for some.

http://www.theologicalstudies.org/resource-library/dispensationalism/421-what-is-dispensationalism

4. The church is distinct from Israel The church does not replace or continue Israel, and is never referred to as Israel. According to dispensationalists, the church did not exist in the Old Testament and did not begin until the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2). Old Testament promises to Israel, then, cannot be entirely fulfilled with the church.

 

[random person]

Very likely if one is to say a belief is not true they should find out what that belief is first not take what some one else says it is. The link below says the statements by Preston is not true for all dispensationalists, maybe for some.

http://www.theologicalstudies.org/resource-library/dispensationalism/421-what-is-dispensationalism

4. The church is distinct from Israel The church does not replace or continue Israel, and is never referred to as Israel. According to dispensationalists, the church did not exist in the Old Testament and did not begin until the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2). Old Testament promises to Israel, then, cannot be entirely fulfilled with the church.

i am sorry am i missing something here? where is this statement #4 contradicting anything preston said it is in complete agreement with him... preston in his argument against dispensationalism was this

israel and the land (physical circumcision the title deed) - the shadow ... the temporal always looking/pointing forward to something better ... superior

the church and the heavenly kingdom (spiritual circumcision of the heart the title deed) - the fulfilled reality ... the better superior things in christ

 

[BABerean2]

The church is distinct from Israel The church does not replace or continue Israel, and is never referred to as Israel. According to dispensationalists, the church did not exist in the Old Testament and did not begin until the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2). Old Testament promises to Israel, then, cannot be entirely fulfilled with the church.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Act_2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Gal_6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Eph_2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

 

[Job8]

But my question is, why this one-sided attack? Why do these people find it necessary to continually attack Dispensationalism?

Very simply the truth will always be under attack. But the underlying reason is that Christians in general have been fooled into believing that the Millennium has already come into existence and Bible prophecy can simply be allegorized or rendered symbolic. Beyond that is the fact that Christianity had dismissed Israel and the Jews altogether from way back (and also during the Reformation, with Martin Luther attacking Jews), and applied everything to the Church (Replacement Theology). Since all these false notions have been exposed, the vitriolic attacks are similar to those of a cornered animal. And they generally focus on personalities, not on Bible Truth.

 

[BABerean2]

Very simply the truth will always be under attack. But the underlying reason is that Christians in general have been fooled into believing that the Millennium has already come into existence and Bible prophecy can simply be allegorized or rendered symbolic. Beyond that is the fact that Christianity had dismissed Israel and the Jews altogether from way back (and also during the Reformation, with Martin Luther attacking Jews), and applied everything to the Church (Replacement Theology). Since all these false notions have been exposed, the vitriolic attacks are similar to those of a cornered animal. And they generally focus on personalities, not on Bible Truth.

Replacement Theology is...

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
(Replacing the One Seed, who is Christ, with the Israelites of the Flesh, who are many seeds.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Replacing the children of the promise, who are the children of God, with the children of the Flesh, who are not the children of God.)

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(Replacing the circumcision of the heart, with the circumcision of the Flesh.)


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(It is replacing the remnant of faithful Olive Tree branches that remained in the tree, with the branches broken off because they rejected the Messiah.)

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(It is replacing the New Blood Covenant of Jesus Christ "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6, with some covenant to be fulfilled in the future.)


It is putting the focus of God's Plan on the modern nation of Israel, instead of Jesus Christ, by claiming that the Church is a "parenthesis" in God's Plan of dealing with Israel.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

It is putting the focus of God's Plan on the modern nation of Israel, instead of Jesus Christ, by claiming that the Church is a "parenthesis" in God's Plan of dealing with Israel.

.

To deny that God still has a plan for Israel is to deny the truth of literally hundreds of explicitly stated prophecies in the Bible. You are giving greater credence to your interpretation of the meanings of a relatively small number of passages in the scriptures than to a very much larger number of explicitly stated scriptures.

Not even one of the passages you keep quoting actually says what you claim it means. But a very large number of other passages explicitly say the very opposite to what you claim these passages mean.

Dispensationalists choose to accept the actual words of God above the doctrines of men.

 

[dms1972]

Though not a dispensationalist, I read a book by a writter who seemed to be dispensationalist though not writting about dispensationalist theology which in parts I found very helpful.

I don't think it a good thing for there to be no disagreement at all. Not every disagreement is an attack. But if the same posters are making constant attacks on a forum for a particular school of biblical interpretation it should be reported to Site Staff.

 

[MWood]

Replacement Theology is...

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
(Replacing the One Seed, who is Christ, with the Israelites of the Flesh, who are many seeds.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Replacing the children of the promise, who are the children of God, with the children of the Flesh, who are not the children of God.)

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(Replacing the circumcision of the heart, with the circumcision of the Flesh.)


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
(It is replacing the remnant of faithful Olive Tree branches that remained in the tree, with the branches broken off because they rejected the Messiah.)

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
(It is replacing the New Blood Covenant of Jesus Christ "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6, with some covenant to be fulfilled in the future.)


It is putting the focus of God's Plan on the modern nation of Israel, instead of Jesus Christ, by claiming that the Church is a "parenthesis" in God's Plan of dealing with Israel.

.

Heb.8:6 is a covenant that will be fulfilled in the future. Heb.8:6 is the same Covenant as Jer.31. Place two bibles side by side and open one to Jer.31 and the other to Heb.8. They are ALMOST word for word.

 

[Job8]

It is putting the focus of God's Plan on the modern nation of Israel, instead of Jesus Christ, by claiming that the Church is a "parenthesis" in God's Plan of dealing with Israel.

We are not to be focused on "the modern nation of Israel" (which is essentially secular, unbelieving, and Christ-rejecting) but on "redeemed and restored Israel" in the future (Acts 1:6,7): When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them,It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

The apostles knew with full confidence that the kingdom of Israel would be restored on earth in the future. But they were not aware of the Church Age. In that sense it is a "parenthesis" but as far as God is concerned, it is the time when the Church -- the Body of Christ -- must be built up with BOTH Jews and Gentiles until "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in". The Church has an important and eternal role in God's eternal plans and purposes, and is in fact even more important than redeemed and restored Israel. However, God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is immutable, therefore Israel must be restored to the land between the Nile and the Euphrates, and all the tribes of Israel must be settled where they belong.

In view of this, at His Second Coming, Christ will send forth His angels and gather all Jews to the land of Israel, following which there will be universal mourning, repentance, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their God and Savior. Thus redemption for Israel will be no different than redemption for the world, but they the Jews shall see the One whom they pierced and repent. As we read in Romans 11:26, "AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED". That is to be a literal fulfillment of prophecy.

 

[BABerean2]

Heb.8:6 is a covenant that will be fulfilled in the future. Heb.8:6 is the same Covenant as Jer.31. Place two bibles side by side and open one to Jer.31 and the other to Heb.8. They are ALMOST word for word.

All but the first sentence of your quote above is correct.

However, your first sentence stands in direct conflict with what is plainly written in the text.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The author of Hebrews says the New Covenant was in the present tense during the first century.
Therefore, it is not waiting on a future fulfillment.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
.

 

[BABerean2]

We are not to be focused on "the modern nation of Israel" (which is essentially secular, unbelieving, and Christ-rejecting) but on "redeemed and restored Israel" in the future (Acts 1:6,7): When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them,It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

The apostles knew with full confidence that the kingdom of Israel would be restored on earth in the future. But they were not aware of the Church Age. In that sense it is a "parenthesis" but as far as God is concerned, it is the time when the Church -- the Body of Christ -- must be built up with BOTH Jews and Gentiles until "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in". The Church has an important and eternal role in God's eternal plans and purposes, and is in fact even more important than redeemed and restored Israel. However, God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is immutable, therefore Israel must be restored to the land between the Nile and the Euphrates, and all the tribes of Israel must be settled where they belong.

In view of this, at His Second Coming, Christ will send forth His angels and gather all Jews to the land of Israel, following which there will be universal mourning, repentance, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their God and Savior. Thus redemption for Israel will be no different than redemption for the world, but they the Jews shall see the One whom they pierced and repent. As we read in Romans 11:26, "AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED". That is to be a literal fulfillment of prophecy.

You have taken Romans 11:26 out of it's context in reference to being grafted into the Olive Tree.

In doing this you are attempting to change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing.

Christ has broken down the middle wall of separation between all races of people at the Cross.
You are attempting to rebuild it.

Applying Zechariah 12:10 to the day of Christ's Second Coming instead of the day of Pentecost, stands in direct conflict with the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25.

Jesus said the virgins must be prepared "before" the Bridegroom arrives.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

However, Zechariah 12:10 does fit the day of Pentecost, because some of the Jews there on that day were the same ones who called for Jesus to be crucified a few weeks earlier.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Based on the whole council of God's Word, there will be no Second chances on the day of His Second Coming.
He will return in Flaming Fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
.