Why such low expectations for young women?

[Cearbhall]

All of the talk about marital submission on this website is strange to me. It seems to be centered around the idea that young women aren't capable of being independent adults, or, if they are capable, that they shouldn't use all of their skills. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't have a very high opinion of an adult woman who falls under the first category.

I certainly wouldn't tolerate it in a daughter or romantic partner. I pity the young man who is told that he shouldn't expect his wife to be able to handle finances, make big decisions, have a full-time job, or whatever else it may be.

What's the deal?

 

[blackribbon]

A wife who submits to her husband is NOT the same thing as a submissive person. A woman isn't even supposed to submit to her boyfriend or fiance...she should be able to stand on her own two feet and think for herself. Christian submission is a choice, not a personality. We all submit to Christ. We submit to our teachers authority when in school. We submit to our bosses when at work if we want to keep our jobs. it isn't an evil thing or a sign of weakness. In fact, it often takes more strength to give up the power to someone else and trust that they will do the right thing..

 

[Cearbhall]

A wife who submits to her husband is NOT the same thing as a submissive person. A woman isn't even supposed to submit to her boyfriend or fiance...she should be able to stand on her own two feet and think for herself. Christian submission is a choice, not a personality.

Is the husband submitting to her in return, in this model?

We submit to our teachers authority when in school. We submit to our bosses when at work if we want to keep our jobs.

That authority is earned. There's a functional hierarchy in those systems. What has a husband done to earn it that the wife hasn't? What makes them different?

 

[blackribbon]

Is the husband submitting to her in return, in this model?

Actually, he is supposed to...the verses actually say to 'submit to each other'...and the command is to bind together with respect and commitment. The woman and man no longer should be submitting to their parents at this time.

Ephesians 5
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

 

[blackribbon]

I do think a lot of Christian men don't bother to read verse 21...or the part commanding men to love their wives every bit as much as they love themselves.

 

[Cearbhall]

Actually, he is supposed to...the verses actually say to 'submit to each other'...and the command is to bind together with respect and commitment. The woman and man no longer should be submitting to their parents at this time.

I'm curious about what mutual submission would look like in practice.

 

[blackribbon]

The model Christian wife is described in Prov 31...and she is far from being weak or stupid. In fact, I get tired just reading what is expected of us as wives. It to run a household, to have a successful business, to support her children and husband, and earn the respect of those around her. Men should be looking for THIS woman...and raising his daughter to be this woman.

Prov 31:
10 A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies.
11 Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value.
12 She brings him good, not harm all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still night; she provides food for her family and portions for her female servants.
16 She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20 She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy.
21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household; for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is respected at the city gate, where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come.
26 She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her:
29 “Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all.”
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.
31 Honor her for all that her hands have done and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.

 

[blackribbon]

I'm curious about what mutual submission would look like in practice.

One word: respect

 

[Cearbhall]

One word: respect

You said it was exclusive to marriage, though.

 

[Sir Robbins]

directed at the OP.... not sure where you are getting your information from. Every woman I see and meet is the polar opposite of what you describe. Their standards are high, they have business and law degrees and many do rather well without men.... this too can be seen as a problem. What once made a man appealing is now something we don't have to our advantage.

 

[Sir Robbins]

You said it was exclusive to marriage, though.

in a biblical sense, yes just as sex is but you see how few people follow that...

 

[James of Arc]

.

 

[blackribbon]

You said it was exclusive to marriage, though.

I never said it was exclusive to marriage. I said that is when we are commanded to submit. I submit to the authority of my bosses every day and I submit to the laws of the land..etc...

Note: the command isn't to make your spouse submit...it is commanded to each individual to offer up with their own free will.... HUGE difference

 

[Cearbhall]

directed at the OP.... not sure where you are getting your information from.

Posts I've seen on this website advocating for marital submission.

Every woman I see and meet is the polar opposite of what you describe. Their standards are high, they have business and law degrees and many do rather well without men....

Well, good. I'm asking why some people don't set these expectations for women.

 

[Sir Robbins]

Posts I've seen on this website advocating for marital submission.

Well, good. I'm asking why some people don't set these expectations for women.

it was never intended for women. It's more of our society than of biblical standards. The man is to be the head of the household and the wife to be a mother. Society is trying to destroy the family, rid of God and the middle class. Empowering women is a good start

 

[Cearbhall]

this too can be seen as a problem. What once made a man appealing is now something we don't have to our advantage.

What might that be?

in a biblical sense, yes just as sex is but you see how few people follow that...

What would you say marital submission includes in practice that is exclusive to marriage?

 

[blackribbon]

it was never intended for women. It's more of our society than of biblical standards. The man is to be the head of the household and the wife to be a mother. Society is trying to destroy the family, rid of God and the middle class. Empowering women is a good start

Have you read the description of the woman in Prov 31? She owns her own business and is a property owner in her own right...along with running her household complete with servants so not a housewife as we think of a housewife. God empowered women, not society.

 

[Cearbhall]

I do not want a dumb wife. I want a wife that is smart and knows how to lead but she can do that while being a wife and not trying to be a second husband.

Wait, but why should she not try to do that if she's on the same level as you in intelligence? You could just as easily do the same thing: be smart and know how to lead while not using those skills. But why would you do a thing like that?

The title of wife and husband are two different titles with two different jobs.

What makes you think that?

 

[James of Arc]

.

 

[Cearbhall]

Thay are not different names for the same job of husband.

"Husband" means you're legally married and are of the male gender. Why would there need to be something particular to it that doesn't apply to a married female?

Some try to make the quote of the wife being submissively to mean that the wife remains bare foot andi pregnant and her duty is to cook and clean only. I want a wife that is smart so while I am at work she can represent our family to the public in a good way.

Why the assumption that you'll be working and she won't be? You could find yourself in a marriage where her smarts are more suited for formal work, and yours are more suited for representing the two of you to the public.