I don't know that painful sacrifice is necessary for love,however someone had to die for our sins,either us or God Himself in the form of Jesus Christ.My question still remains: why is sacrifice required for any type of love? Why couldn't the requirement be something else? It has to be torture and bloody death?
My question still remains: why is sacrifice required for any type of love? Why couldn't the requirement be something else? It has to be torture and bloody death?
He tried. People wanted more. Plus bubblegum rots your teeth.
He gave 2 people a shot at it, the first 2 humans to live. Nobody else got to see it.
Well, some folks just don't like sugar free so now He would have to adjust everyone's palate so that all would equally like it and be satisfied. Plus we will need more folks that can treat TMJ because of all that chewing. I wonder if all folks will be able to afford it.Sugarfree everlasting bubblegum? I know we keep playing around with this funny example, but realistically there are a ton of better options than torture and suffering.
Actually no, He gave the chance to quite a few several times but they decided that they wanted something else.
The first 2 people were shown paradise and lived in it, nobody else. That's not fair, if God showed me the garden of eden today there's no way I'd eat from any tree or listen to any snake. Why does Adam get a shot but I don't? Or anybody else?
You would eat from it. All of us would. Would you not eat bubblegum from the bubblegum tree?
BTW- אָדָם translates as Adam but means mankind.
If God told me not to, I wouldn't. I'd hope that he was nice though and wanted me to eat his bubblegum.
Alright, so all of mankind is pre-determined to eat the fruit if given the opportunity? This negates free will, as we all have the freedom to choose not to eat the fruit.
Why? He told Adam not to eat, what makes you think that you would not?
Oh yes, we all have "free" will and all of us would use that "free" will to eat from the bubblegum tree.
Because I am not Adam, and I would like to use my free will right to make the choice not to eat the fruit. Even if I do end up making the wrong choice, it is not free will if I don't at least have the opportunity to choose one way or another.
I place two bowls in front of my 5 year old child, one has cereal and the other has dog poop. I know which bowl he will pick, am I predetermining his choice or do I simply just know?That's not free will then. If you are predetermined to commit an action, you have no freedom in the matter. You cannot choose one way or another because you are bound to just one way (of course it's the bad way).
Explain your definition of free will, because that's where the problem may be.
You are making the "choice" right now. Jesus gave you that "choice".
If I place two bowls in front of my 5 year old child, one has cereal and the other has dog poop. I know which bowl he will pick, am I predetermining his choice or do I simply just know?
My question still remains: why is sacrifice required for any type of love? Why couldn't the requirement be something else? It has to be torture and bloody death?
What choice am I making?
You are not predetermining his choice, you are making an educated guess based on the fact that there is food in one bowl and poop in the other. You will never actually know you're right until you give him the free will choice to choose a bowl.
I was never given a choice of living in a sinless world, I was born into it. That is not free will, as I had no choice of living in a sinless or sinful world.
Again I'll ask for your definition of free will.
You are eating from the tree.
Actually I am predetermining his choice by the choices that I am giving him. If he had chosen the poop I would have immediately removed the bowl while if he had chosen the cereal I would have allowed him to eat it.
And yet, you have a choice to have your sins paid for but you use your 'free' will to choose to keep them.
"Free" will is choosing to eat from the bubblegum tree just because it tastes good. "Free" will is also not choosing to eat from the bubblegum tree because God asked you not to. God knows which one you will choose and yet both choices are presented to you.
I have been shown no paradise and no tree of eternal knowledge. I've been offered no fruit and given no shot at original sin.
You allowed him to choose though, you allowed him to either say "I want poop" or "I want cereal".
I don't want to eat the apple that leads to sin.
That's completely beside the point. If I was given the choice to eat the fruit and chose not to, there would be no need for a savior or resurrection.
If God knows what I'm going to do, how am I free? He could read off his script and I would follow exactly what he says I'm going to do. I am a slave to his predetermined "plan" for my life that he has laid out with absolute certainty. I choose not to believe in that, because that is not free will.
Free will is not just being given a choice, it's being given the freedom to actually make that choice. My initial argument was that it's not fair for Adam to have a fundamental free will choice that sets up the rest of mankind for sin, failure, and the need for a bloody redemption. I would rather not eat the fruit and then not have to see Jesus (or anybody) suffer.
I have been shown no paradise and no tree of eternal knowledge. I've been offered no fruit and given no shot at original sin.
You allowed him to choose though, you allowed him to either say "I want poop" or "I want cereal".
I don't want to eat the apple that leads to sin.
That's completely beside the point. If I was given the choice to eat the fruit and chose not to, there would be no need for a savior or resurrection.
If God knows what I'm going to do, how am I free? He could read off his script and I would follow exactly what he says I'm going to do. I am a slave to his predetermined "plan" for my life that he has laid out with absolute certainty. I choose not to believe in that, because that is not free will.
Free will is not just being given a choice, it's being given the freedom to actually make that choice. My initial argument was that it's not fair for Adam to have a fundamental free will choice that sets up the rest of mankind for sin, failure, and the need for a bloody redemption. I would rather not eat the fruit and then not have to see Jesus (or anybody) suffer.
I explained the point of the sacrifice but I don't understand what would the bubblegum do to help with the problems we see in the world. How would that fix anything or save anyone?Most of you are not really understanding the angle in which I'm asking the question from.
We all know that God says sacrifice is required for salvation, sacrifice is the truest form of love, etc. The question is why would God make sacrifice the ultimate love? Why not make the ultimate love a love for a bubblegum tree? Why must love entail killing, death, and bloody torture?