Why Must Salvation Only Come Through Torture and Self-Sacrifice?

[humblehumility]

Just a question that has been going through my mind lately.

Why -in order to be forgiven and saved- must we believe in the human sacrifice of Jesus? Why couldn't God just say to the people "Just believe in me, and you are forgiven. If you want proof, I've planted a tree that will grow infinite amounts of bubblegum and will never die. You will invent [science] but it will never be able to figure out why the tree doesn't die. It will be in a glass dome in the desert and nobody will be able to get inside. Write all of this down and pass on the word, with the tree as proof."

I guess that's a really shorthand version, but that model offers both proof of the religion and communication directly from God...and nobody has to die. We don't have to have movies like the Passion, where it's almost all blood and gore to the extreme. We would have movies about a magical bubblegum tree and how amazing the gum is.

I'm obviously being a little silly with the example, but it stays within the constraints of the Bible. God COULD make a bubblegum tree that we could never figure out.

My main argument is that the self-sacrifice thing conflicts with the "all-loving" characteristic of God, especially when there are millions of alternatives that don't need pain, suffering, torture, and murder.

 

[Biker Angel]

Just a question that has been going through my mind lately.

Why -in order to be forgiven and saved- must we believe in the human sacrifice of Jesus? Why couldn't God just say to the people "Just believe in me, and you are forgiven. If you want proof, I've planted a tree that will grow infinite amounts of bubblegum and will never die. You will invent [science] but it will never be able to figure out why the tree doesn't die. It will be in a glass dome in the desert and nobody will be able to get inside. Write all of this down and pass on the word, with the tree as proof."

I guess that's a really shorthand version, but that model offers both proof of the religion and communication directly from God...and nobody has to die. We don't have to have movies like the Passion, where it's almost all blood and gore to the extreme. We would have movies about a magical bubblegum tree and how amazing the gum is.

I'm obviously being a little silly with the example, but it stays within the constraints of the Bible. God COULD make a bubblegum tree that we could never figure out.

My main argument is that the self-sacrifice thing conflicts with the "all-loving" characteristic of God, especially when there are millions of alternatives that don't need pain, suffering, torture, and murder.

There needed to be a sacrifice on Gods part to prove His love for the whole world. love = selflessness which leads to self sacrifice. If you say you love your car, then that's not the kind of true love that God is. True love is all giving not taking or wanting. So isn't a God willing to give His life for you better than just a bubble gum tree?

 

[humblehumility]

There needed to be a sacrifice on Gods part to prove His love for the whole world.

Proof can only come through sacrifice and death?

love = selflessness which leads to self sacrifice.

Love leads to self sacrifice and torture? That's horrifying if it's true.

So isn't a God willing to give His life for you better than just a bubble gum tree?

That's not what happened. Your statement is more accurate if written like this :

So isn't a God who had his son tortured, flogged, mocked, humiliated, and ultimately killed better than just a bubblegum tree?

I'll take bubblegum God...much nicer, much more humane.

 

[oi_antz]

Just a question that has been going through my mind lately.

Why -in order to be forgiven and saved- must we believe in the human sacrifice of Jesus? Why couldn't God just say to the people "Just believe in me, and you are forgiven. If you want proof, I've planted a tree that will grow infinite amounts of bubblegum and will never die. You will invent [science] but it will never be able to figure out why the tree doesn't die. It will be in a glass dome in the desert and nobody will be able to get inside. Write all of this down and pass on the word, with the tree as proof."

I guess that's a really shorthand version, but that model offers both proof of the religion and communication directly from God...and nobody has to die. We don't have to have movies like the Passion, where it's almost all blood and gore to the extreme. We would have movies about a magical bubblegum tree and how amazing the gum is.

I'm obviously being a little silly with the example, but it stays within the constraints of the Bible. God COULD make a bubblegum tree that we could never figure out.

My main argument is that the self-sacrifice thing conflicts with the "all-loving" characteristic of God, especially when there are millions of alternatives that don't need pain, suffering, torture, and murder.

What you seem to be describing is the tree of life which we were banished from. The reason why God doesn't give everyone access to the tree of life? Because we are sinners and He doesn't want sinful humans living forever (Genesis 6:3 - Passage Lookup - New Living Translation - BibleGateway.com). The only way to live forever is to become repentant, that is obedient to Jesus, learn how to overcome sin (Genesis 4:6-7 - Passage Lookup - New Living Translation - BibleGateway.com) and then when Jesus is satisfied He will let us eat the tree of life (Revelation 2:7 - Passage Lookup - New Living Translation - BibleGateway.com). Asking why did Jesus leave earth with no solid proof of God? Well I just trust God's wisdom about that, apparently if you have the capacity to deny Jesus when He is not on earth then you don't love Him enough (John 14:15-31 - Passage Lookup - New Living Translation - BibleGateway.com).

 

[humblehumility]

What you seem to be describing is the tree of life which we were banished from.

No, I am not describing the tree of life. I am talking about the self sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the torture and death that is required for us to be saved.

The rest of your post has no meaning because it's based on the premise that I'm talking about the story of creation, which I'm not.

 

[oi_antz]

No, I am not describing the tree of life. I am talking about the self sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the torture and death that is required for us to be saved.

The rest of your post has no meaning because it's based on the premise that I'm talking about the story of creation, which I'm not.

Hebrews 9 - Passage Lookup - New Living Translation - BibleGateway.com

Hebrews 9 explains the reason in detail. Make sure you read and understand what Paul is saying there.

 

[Faulty]

Just a question that has been going through my mind lately.

Why -in order to be forgiven and saved- must we believe in the human sacrifice of Jesus? Why couldn't God just say to the people "Just believe in me, and you are forgiven. If you want proof, I've planted a tree that will grow infinite amounts of bubblegum and will never die. You will invent [science] but it will never be able to figure out why the tree doesn't die. It will be in a glass dome in the desert and nobody will be able to get inside. Write all of this down and pass on the word, with the tree as proof."

I guess that's a really shorthand version, but that model offers both proof of the religion and communication directly from God...and nobody has to die. We don't have to have movies like the Passion, where it's almost all blood and gore to the extreme. We would have movies about a magical bubblegum tree and how amazing the gum is.

I'm obviously being a little silly with the example, but it stays within the constraints of the Bible. God COULD make a bubblegum tree that we could never figure out.

My main argument is that the self-sacrifice thing conflicts with the "all-loving" characteristic of God, especially when there are millions of alternatives that don't need pain, suffering, torture, and murder.

What are you thinking "believe in me" means?

 

[Biker Angel]

That's not what happened. Your statement is more accurate if written like this :

So isn't a God who had his son tortured, flogged, mocked, humiliated, and ultimately killed better than just a bubblegum tree?

What you don't understand is that God Himself became flesh in the form of Jesus Christ and sacrificed Himself for you to be saved. Believe it or not.
Thanks for rewriting my statement it actually works better your way.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

humblehumility, I deserve what Christ suffered, but he did it for me. I accept his sacrifice on my behalf as part of God's plan to save me.

 

[drich0150]

Just a question that has been going through my mind lately.

Why -in order to be forgiven and saved- must we believe in the human sacrifice of Jesus?

Because God said so.

Why couldn't God just say to the people "Just believe in me, and you are forgiven.

Because True righteousness demands a sacrifice for sin.

If you want proof, I've planted a tree that will grow infinite amounts of bubblegum and will never die. You will invent [science] but it will never be able to figure out why the tree doesn't die. It will be in a glass dome in the desert and nobody will be able to get inside. Write all of this down and pass on the word, with the tree as proof."

God is the God of the natural universe, why would he create something that would exist outside of this realm? Do you think He would do this just to taunt us? We have been charged to "tame this world." Science makes this taming process happen.

I guess that's a really shorthand version, but that model offers both proof of the religion and communication directly from God...and nobody has to die.

Everyone dies (or haven't you been told?) There is no greater love that a man can give than to give His life for another.

We don't have to have movies like the Passion, where it's almost all blood and gore to the extreme. We would have movies about a magical bubblegum tree and how amazing the gum is.

Then we would not be aware of the sacrifice that was needed to atone for sin.

I'm obviously being a little silly with the example, but it stays within the constraints of the Bible. God COULD make a bubblegum tree that we could never figure out.

How is this "with in the constraints of the bible?"

My main argument is that the self-sacrifice thing conflicts with the "all-loving" characteristic of God, especially when there are millions of alternatives that don't need pain, suffering, torture, and murder.

Then perhaps you should look to expand your understanding of Love, before we look to understand the term "All-Loving."

 

[ElijahW]

It is about establishing the ideal king for the formation of the ideal kingdom. Jesus is following in the tradition of Moses, with trying to build a kingdom that would liberate humanity from its rulers. His role isn’t to try to build a republic like Moses with a set of laws but trying to establish an example of how authority should behave. At that time and now, the authority tends to have no problem having the people serve and die for them but Jesus establishes a new example of a ruler that serves and dies for the people instead of the other way around.

The establishing of a dead king as the authority for the people is intended to liberate us from the oppression of the living rulers. Which then leads to eternal life and the resurrection of the dead. This is where believing in him gets you forgiven of your sins; because it is your sins that leads to your death and it is your belief in him as your Lord and savior that leads to your resurrection.

“So long as men worship the Caesars and Napoleons, Caesars and Napoleons will duly arise and make them miserable.” Aldous Huxley

 

[informer]

To test our sincerity. As for all loving, that is what men say as a means of flattering the hearers. The only matter in which God is all loving is that He loves mankind so, that He gives us our chance through the sacrifice of His Son, that we may repent. But to draw near to God is voluntary, and in the end we shall receive exactly what we deserve.

 

[40creek]

I must be doing something wrong. I thought I was a christian but I have never been torchered, nor have I had to sacrifice anything that I did not want to. Christianity has never hurt me-----Is it supposed to hurt????????????

 

[humblehumility]

Most of you are not really understanding the angle in which I'm asking the question from.

We all know that God says sacrifice is required for salvation, sacrifice is the truest form of love, etc. The question is why would God make sacrifice the ultimate love? Why not make the ultimate love a love for a bubblegum tree? Why must love entail killing, death, and bloody torture?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Most of you are not really understanding the angle in which I'm asking the question from.

We all know that God says sacrifice is required for salvation, sacrifice is the truest form of love, etc. The question is why would God make sacrifice the ultimate love? Why not make the ultimate love a love for a bubblegum tree? Why must love entail killing, death, and bloody torture?

I think that you misunderstand what 'love' is in the context of your question. You are referring to love as an affectionate attraction and attachment. The love expressed by Christs' sacrifice (as in John 3:16) is the 'covenant' love. The difference between the two is profound, as Strong's states: 'one being that of the heart (Phileo), the other that of the head (agape). One is affection, the other commitment.

 

[Hentenza]

Most of you are not really understanding the angle in which I'm asking the question from.

We all know that God says sacrifice is required for salvation, sacrifice is the truest form of love, etc. The question is why would God make sacrifice the ultimate love? Why not make the ultimate love a love for a bubblegum tree? Why must love entail killing, death, and bloody torture?

Bubblegum is good. Most people like bubblegum. Bubblegum, however, only lasts for a little bit and then looses its flavor. Even with an "eternal" supply, bubblegum still wouldn't last any longer and still would loose its flavor. I wish bubblegum lasted longer.

 

[Annoula]

My main argument is that the self-sacrifice thing conflicts with the "all-loving" characteristic of God, especially when there are millions of alternatives that don't need pain, suffering, torture, and murder.

hello humblehumility,

i don't find any conflict between the "all-loving" God and the self-sacrifice.

seeing it from a human perspective - as i am not God and i can't explain His actions with my human restricted logic - if we truly love someone we are ready to sacrifice our own needs so that they will be better or saved in any way.
for example, if a spouse truly loves their other half they can even give their life in order to save their beloved one. such kind of love is not very common, i think, because somehow we ended up believing that love is something like a more general emotion of happiness and joy.

another example, a mother is ready to risk her safeness in order for her child to be safe. i remember my cousin who fears snakes badly, when she was walking with her young daughter and saw a snake, she made a step forward and covered her child to protect her, despite her own terror.

if a human being and even animals can do that out of love and protection, how much more can God do for us?!

i am talking about the conflict you mentioned.
i am not talking about why such a sacrifice would be needed from Jesus Christ and God.
this is a different topic, and although many christian doctrines give their explanation, i strongly believe that such a belief cannot be understood in a rational way. it can only be deeply understood by our souls when they have been prepared to receive it.

i think we overestimate our logical minds, and we ask that everything on this world should be explained in a logical manner.
but we have to understand that logic is only one aspect of our bodily nature. it is maybe one of the greatest aspects but it's still just one.
we need to get in touch with our soul and cultivate her, just as we cultivate earth and receive her fruits which is for our physical survival.
cultivation of our soul is for our spiritual survival.

i wish you all the best.

 

[humblehumility]

I think that you misunderstand what 'love' is in the context of your question. You are referring to love as an affectionate attraction and attachment. The love expressed by Christs' sacrifice (as in John 3:16) is the 'covenant' love. The difference between the two is profound, as Strong's states: 'one being that of the heart (Phileo), the other that of the head (agape). One is affection, the other commitment.

My question still remains: why is sacrifice required for any type of love? Why couldn't the requirement be something else? It has to be torture and bloody death?

 

[humblehumility]

Bubblegum is good. Most people like bubblegum. Bubblegum, however, only lasts for a little bit and then looses its flavor. Even with an "eternal" supply, bubblegum still wouldn't last any longer and still would loose its flavor. I wish bubblegum lasted longer.

Alright, God could make the bubblegum everlasting gum. Could he not?

 

[humblehumility]

How is this "with in the constraints of the bible?"

Walking on water, turning water into wine, rising from the dead, faith healing, everlasting tree of life, everlasting bubblegum tree.

It's not out of place or out of constraints at all.