Why Jesus is not the Genuine God.

[Der Alte]

Actually they were ordered to come to this meeting, many of them didn't show up, becasue they knew it was wrong about the Trinity, it was pagan.
But some did attend. These didn't like it, but went along with it. Over time the Trinity came to be accepted into the Church. There is more no this in the bible, itself. But that is a little too advanced for what we are talking now.

What you have posted here is just rehash of anti-Trinitarian gossip, innuendo, and false accusations floating around the internet. There has never been any credible, verifiable, historical evidence provided to support any of this. Some unknown guy posts some of this stuff on his website, and a lot of other people quote it as if it were true.

All presiding bishops were requested, NOT ordered to attend the council. According to some estimates I have seen there were approximately 1775 bishops who did not attend. So according to the prevailing anti-Trinitarian account, what happened to them when they supposedly "disobeyed" Constantine? A: Absolutely nothing Because there was no such order.

How do you know why any bishop did not attend the council? Can you produce anything written by any bishop or historian who lived in 325 stating why they did or did not attend the council? A: No, you cannot because there is no such information. Can you produce anything written by any bishop who attended the council stating they did not like anything but they went along anyway? A: Again, no, you cannot because no such information exists! Nothing you have posted here has a grain of truth in it. It is all total fabrication!

I read this wild eyed story frequently but nobody has been able to tell me why all the Christians who supposedly said nothing and did nothing but just went along with the council, why didn't they go along and say nothing, and do nothing only a few years before when they were being hunted down like dogs, tortured and their families killed because they would not just go along and worship pagan idols and the emperor.

Why did many bishops not attend the Nicaean council? There were limited ways of traveling at that time. Most would have traveled by foot or donkey, hundreds of miles, through mountains, deserts, forests, and would have been in danger of attack by bandits daily. It would have been cold, the council began in May and many bishops would have to have started in March. The persecution of the church by Rome ended only 12 years before, most bishops bore the marks of torture in their bodies. You can read the real accounts in the histories of Eusebius and Lactantius who lived at the time.

 

[Der Alte]

Then give me a scripture that you think contradicts what Jesus says about being Gods Son.

That is not the issue I addressed, the burden of proof is on you to prove that "all those scriptures (I) posted" says this?

All those scriptures you posted say the same thing, Jesus is with his Father, or that Jesus is God's Son. or that they are in union with each other. Which one of those scriptures contradicts that?

I say you are wrong, now show me how many of the 220 + scripture I posted say this. Start with John 20:28.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.​

It literally reads in the Greek, "The Lord of me and the God of me."

 

[Hentenza]

I don't like to use my opinion, it can't always be trusted.
Go back and reread the posts I sent on that.
If you can't accept that, or what the bible says, why would you believe me, or any other evidence, whats wrong with the evidence I sent already?

And yet you continue to ignore posts to you. You are yet to address my posts number 164, 175, and 186 among others. It is polite to quote and answer the whole post when someone has taken the time to reply to your posts.

 

[Der Alte]

I have posted this before.
I have posted this before.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.
Even though, as Trinitarians acknowledge, neither the word “Trinity” nor a statement of the Trinitarian dogma is found in the Bible, are the concepts that are embodied in that dogma found there?

If you don't want to accept it, I can't do anything about that. But i do take what the bible says seriously and the research that has gone on.
What these Encyclopædia's and the bible scriptures on who God is and who Jesus is fits. If others have a different idea that is up to them.

Yes you have posted this before and I have addressed it before. You ignore what I say and keep posting the same thing over and over and over. You copy/pasted this from an anti-Trinitarian website. You have not identified your source, this is illegal, dishonest, and violates the TOS of this forum. You have never read the actual sources which are supposedly being quote her. You do not know what they actually say.

 

[Der Alte]

[16] Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [יהוה] is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
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[17] Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [Christ, vs. 16]
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

[18] Zech 12:10 And I [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

The oldest Hebrew manuscripts present the name in the form of four consonants, commonly called the Tetragrammaton (from Greek te&#8231;tra-, meaning “four,” and gram&#8242;ma, “letter” [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;]). These four letters (written from right to left) are [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] and may be transliterated into English as YHWH (or, JHVH). Jehovah
If you don't believe me check out this site, It is a interlinear translation of the text. You will see where the translators substituted Lord for Gods personal name Jehovah. They have a number of translations there. You can see for yourself, what the bible says. and what the translations say.

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software
You have to download a small program for it to run, it has to do this becasue of the fonts.
You can blame the translators for this, if your bible does not have the name in all the places.

I'm sure this is all quite interesting but it does NOT address my post. The purpose of my post was to show that more than 25 times an OT scripture in which YHWH is speaking or acting when cited in the NT it shows Jesus as the one speaking or acting.

 

[it'sme]

Der Alter ......I think I did miss what you were trying to say with this. Sorry for that. I can see you would be frustrated for this. Some times when you know something, you expect others to know it as well. Any way I will try this again.

Are you directing this, to me personally or by "you" do you mean people in general or people who don't belong to your denomination? If you are referring to me I have been using God's name probably longer than you have been alive. I have been a Christian since before the 7 day war, and learned to read Hebrew more than 2 1/2 decades ago.

Here are twenty six (26) passages from the O.T. which refer to &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;/YHWH, paired with verses in the N.T. which identify Jesus as &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;/YHWH

I have used Gods name, for about 45 years now. ( yikes am I really that old!!)

[1] Isa 40:3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

N.T. reference.
Matt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [Mk 1:3, Lk 3:4, John 1:23]

Tetragrammaton in Hebrew characters (&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492 was used in both the Hebrew text and the Greek Septuagint. Therefore, whether Jesus and his disciples read the Scriptures in either Hebrew or Greek, they would come across the divine name. In the synagogue at Nazareth, when Jesus rose and accepted the book of Isaiah and read 61:1, 2 where the Tetragrammaton occurs twice, he pronounced the divine name. This was in accordance with his determination to make Jehovah&#8217;s name known as can be seen from his prayer to his Father: &#8220;I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. . . . I have made your name known to them and will make it known.&#8221;&#8212;Joh 17:6, 26.

When ever older texts were read from ( OT) if the name occurred in that passage they would use the name. And Jesus himself made it a point to use the name, as he did in John 17.
So in reality when these occurrences happened in the NT the name of God Jehovah should also be used. But if you go into many of the old writings the name is left out and the substitute Lord or God is used.


Now I do hope this answers the question. Or at least what you were trying to say.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Brother,

If Jesus is not God then you would be guilty of idolatry by worshiping Him. Do you worship Jesus our Lord and savior?

It is right to give Him thanks and praise!
i am a Christian, lost without His sacrifice.
i am ordered by ALmighty God in the OT to receive and exalt Jesus as the Lord.
But that in of itself does not make me guilty of idolatry. I worship Him because i am so charged to do so. Without Him, I will not see the Father.
So yes, I exalt my King, but no, I do not understand His Divinity!
I will make no judgment against those who believe Him to be God or Messiah, or of any belief in Him who is our King!
My charge is to exalt Him as such. Period!

May He and the Father be praised and exalted! Whether separate or unitary!
Believe this!
These questions can only be answered by Him who is ALmighty!

 

[TR1]

Jesus does not say that He is not good. We do know that Jesus was sinless and God was well pleased with Him. The parable teaches about the hoarding of wealth not about just entering into the Kingdom of God.

um, jesus did not say he is not good, he says that why are you calling me good, when the only good is the father. so he is saying the only good is god and that evryone else, including him is not good. i assume this is giving god the power and respect he desrves.

the parable teaching that one should not hoard wealth since it makes it hard to enter the kingdom, but is also teaching how to enter the kingdom. the verse is clear, jesus again is showing that he is not god and that entry into the kingdom is through works and not just faith

 

[it'sme]

the parable teaching that one should not hoard wealth since it makes it hard to enter the kingdom, but is also teaching how to enter the kingdom. the verse is clear, jesus again is showing that he is not god and that entry into the kingdom is through works and not just faith

This is correct though money or wealth is not wrong. Job for instance was very wealthy. The problem with being wealthy is that it can be distracting. But this wasn't the case for Job. The love of money is wrong,and if you are trying to become rich, there are many pitfalls to that. It is much better to live a quiet peaceful life , serving God.

 

[gort]

Yes I do understand that. But that is not correct. To believe that denies the bible saying that Jesus was the first born of creation.

I think it is your misunderstanding. If Jesus was the literal firstborn of creation then you have a contradiction with the scriptures. If Jesus was the first created it is not possible for Jesus to have created himself, having, after all, been the creator of ALL things.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


And let's not toss aside who is the image of the invisible God. Nor let us toss aside that all things in heaven too were created by Jesus which includes everything you can think of.

It also denies the relationship Jesus has with his Father ( as a Son ). Jesus could have failed the test when he came to earth, he even asked his Father , that if would allow this cup to pass him by , but not as his will but as his Fathers will. Jesus even said he has a God. There are so many scriptures on this, the bible is based on this, the ransom is based on this.

ANd all your thoughts concerning Jesus has a God are dismissed because you don't understand the relationship in which Jesus gave up everything and became a man like you and was made lower than the angels. Made a mortal man with all the frailties included. All the omni's were given up and He subjected Himself to the Father in all things. Yes, Jesus the man has a God. However, in the trinity, there is still a Father and Son and relationship that goes along with it. I think most trinitarians would agree with me that the Father is the fountainhead of the Trinity.

The idea of a Trinity came from false religion

,

I really don't think you've examined the scriptures close enough to distinguish just exactly who belongs to the creation and who exactly is uncreated.

The bible is in harmony with itself, but to bring something like this into it ,what would be the difference to any other false religion, that there is in this world.

Well, I've shown you one of your apparant contradictions that tell me your understanding of the bible is in harmony with itself is in error.

How does the first one created create all things? DOes the first one created create himself first and then all things? Perhaps you are just confusing created with words like firstborn or begotten

Can you show us a clearcut example of Jesus/Logos being created?

 

[it'sme]

I think it is your misunderstanding. If Jesus was the literal firstborn of creation then you have a contradiction with the scriptures. If Jesus was the first created it is not possible for Jesus to have created himself, having, after all, been the creator of ALL things.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


And let's not toss aside who is the image of the invisible God. Nor let us toss aside that all things in heaven too were created by Jesus which includes everything you can think of.



ANd all your thoughts concerning Jesus has a God are dismissed because you don't understand the relationship in which Jesus gave up everything and became a man like you and was made lower than the angels. Made a mortal man with all the frailties included. All the omni's were given up and He subjected Himself to the Father in all things. Yes, Jesus the man has a God. However, in the trinity, there is still a Father and Son and relationship that goes along with it. I think most trinitarians would agree with me that the Father is the fountainhead of the Trinity.



,

I really don't think you've examined the scriptures close enough to distinguish just exactly who belongs to the creation and who exactly is uncreated.




Well, I've shown you one of your apparant contradictions that tell me your understanding of the bible is in harmony with itself is in error.

How does the first one created create all things? DOes the first one created create himself first and then all things? Perhaps you are just confusing created with words like firstborn or begotten

Can you show us a clearcut example of Jesus/Logos being created?

We have been through this before. Though I do know it is one of the draw backs of these forums people come in at different places.
Anyway, Yes the bible does say that Jesus was the first born of creation and it is through him all other creation came about. Jesus is in the image of God ( which means he is just like him) God the Father ( Jehovah) was never created he always was in existence. Jesus is the first born and first in all things. Which means he was the first person, that ever was resurrected, to heaven.
The bible is very clear on this.

 

[gort]

We have been through this before. Though I do know it is one of the draw backs of these forums people come in at different places.
Anyway, Yes the bible does say that Jesus was the first born of creation and it is through him all other creation came about. Jesus is in the image of God ( which means he is just like him) God the Father ( Jehovah) was never created he always was in existence. Jesus is the first born and first in all things. Which means he was the first person, that ever was resurrected, to heaven.
The bible is very clear on this.

So is Jesus created or uncreated?

 

[it'sme]

I forgot to include the scripture:





Colossians 1:15-20 (New International Version)

The Supremacy of Christ

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

 

[it'sme]

So is Jesus created or uncreated?

Jesus is created, Jehovah is not.

 

[it'sme]

Well, I've shown you one of your apparant contradictions that tell me your understanding of the bible is in harmony with itself is in error.

I am sorry, but what was the contradiction? I missed that. Let me know what you think the contradiction is.

 

[Der Alte]

[1] Isa 40:3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

N.T. reference.
Matt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [Mk 1:3, Lk 3:4, John 1:23]

Tetragrammaton in Hebrew characters (&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492 was used in both the Hebrew text and the Greek Septuagint. Therefore, whether Jesus and his disciples read the Scriptures in either Hebrew or Greek, they would come across the divine name. In the synagogue at Nazareth, when Jesus rose and accepted the book of Isaiah and read 61:1, 2 where the Tetragrammaton occurs twice, he pronounced the divine name. This was in accordance with his determination to make Jehovah’s name known as can be seen from his prayer to his Father: “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. . . . I have made your name known to them and will make it known.”—Joh 17:6, 26.

When ever older texts were read from ( OT) if the name occurred in that passage they would use the name. And Jesus himself made it a point to use the name, as he did in John 17.

So in reality when these occurrences happened in the NT the name of God Jehovah should also be used. But if you go into many of the old writings the name is left out and the substitute Lord or God is used.

Now I do hope this answers the question. Or at least what you were trying to say.

One more time this is somewhat interesting, nothing that I did not already know, but it does not address my post. Here is the introduction once again.

Here are twenty six (26) passages from the O.T. which refer to &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;/YHWH, paired with verses in the N.T. which identify Jesus as &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;/YHWH​

The topic I am addressing is the topic of this thread, "Why Jesus is not the Genuine God." The scriptures I posted are verses which address or refer to Jesus as YHWH.

 

[it'sme]

Der Alter

I say you are wrong, now show me how many of the 220 + scripture I posted say this. Start with John 20:28.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.​

It literally reads in the Greek, "The Lord of me and the God of me."

use these scriptures to help you understand this scripture at John 20:28
Isaiah 9:6-7 (Darby Translation)

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this


John 14:28 (Darby Translation)

28Ye have heard that I have said unto you, I go away and I am coming to you. If ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for [my] Father is greater than I.




John 20:17 (Darby Translation)

17Jesus says to her, Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and [to] my God and your God.



John 20:30-32 (Darby Translation)

30Many other signs therefore also Jesus did before his disciples, which are not written in this book;
31but these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name.





So if a person uses all the scriptures in the bible , you will get the understanding. If you take a scripture here and there some will use their own understanding not God's. This makes for many religions. And many will not get to understand who God is at all.
There should be no contradictions.

 

[it'sme]

Here are twenty six (26) passages from the O.T. which refer to &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;/YHWH, paired with verses in the N.T. which identify Jesus as &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;/YHWH​

The topic I am addressing is the topic of this thread, "Why Jesus is not the Genuine God." The scriptures I posted are verses which address or refer to Jesus as YHWH.

[1] Isa 40:3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

N.T. reference.
Matt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [Mk 1:3, Lk 3:4, John 1:23]

Isaiah 40:3 (Darby Translation)

3The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of Jehovah, make straight in the desert a highway for our God!





Matthew 3:3 (New International Version)

3This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord, (Jehovah)
make straight paths for him.' "


This scripture does not identify Jesus as Jehovah. Isaiah 40:3 instead of Lord it should be Jehovah's name. The same in Mathew. This is the problem that the translators did by taking God's name out of the bible. It makes it very confusing.
I hope I answered this for you.

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]This scripture does not identify Jesus as Jehovah. Isaiah 40:3 instead of Lord it should be Jehovah's name. The same in Mathew. This is the problem that the translators did by taking God's name out of the bible. It makes it very confusing.
I hope I answered this for you.

No you have NOT answered my point! One more time the OT verses identifies YHWH as the one from whom the way is being prepared.

[1] Isa 40:3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

N.T. reference.
Matt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [Mk 1:3, Lk 3:4, John 1:23]​

Isaiah 40:3 is quoted in Matt 3:3, Mk 1:3, Lk 3:4, & John 1:23, in all 4 passages Jesus is the one for whom the way is being prepared. Jesus is identified as YHWH.

 

[it'sme]

No you have NOT answered my point! One more time the OT verses identifies YHWH as the one from whom the way is being prepared.

[1] Isa 40:3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

N.T. reference.
Matt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [Mk 1:3, Lk 3:4, John 1:23]​

Isaiah 40:3 is quoted in Matt 3:3, Mk 1:3, Lk 3:4, & John 1:23, in all 4 passages Jesus is the one for whom the way is being prepared. Jesus is identified as YHWH.

Matthew 3:3 (New International Version)

3This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord, (Jehovah)
make straight paths for him.' "[a]



Mark 1:3 (New International Version)


3"a voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord, ( Jehovah)
make straight paths for him.' "[a]





Luke 3:4 (New International Version)

4As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord, ( Jehovah)
make straight paths for him.

John 1:23 (New International Version)


23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.' "( Jehovah) [a]



Der Alter , all these scriptures are talking about Jehovah. I mentioned this the first time you asked. What is the point of this.?

These four letters (written from right to left) are &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; and may be transliterated into English as YHWH (or, JHVH) This is always the name for Jehovah. Not Jesus. Never is Jesus called Jehovah.
The scriptures you mentioned are not about Jesus. I answered this the first time.