Why Jesus is not the Genuine God.

[it'sme]

The churches had nothing to do with the believe of the Trinity. Again, God can only beget God, therefore, Jesus is God. God's intrinsic divine essence can not beget human intrinsic human non divine essence.

The Church's allowed Constantine to push this Trinity idea on them in the 4 th century. Even though the Trintiy was from pagan religions.

 

[Hentenza]

I like to use different translations so you can compare the them. It sometimes gives a better understanding.

But you didn't use translations.

The bible does interpret itself. These scripture do say they are different beings, but Jehovah and Jesus are in unity with each other. That is why the bible says that Jesus is the mirror image of God.

God the Father and God the Son are indeed in unity.

Mark 13:32 (New International Version)
The Day and Hour Unknown

Mark 13: 32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?)

This is how the bible interprets itself, here is another scripture, that supports 2 separate being Jehovah and Jesus. How could one know and not the other one.
The bible is very clear on this. There is no contradiction, from the bible on this.

]LOL!!! You do really need to study Kenosis. Read Philippians 2:7.

 

[Hentenza]

I am coming in so very very late here, but in regards to the OP, i totally agree with his argument.

oh and in regards to this scriptural request, one does spring to mind, some people came to jesus and called him the good lord, and he replied why thou callest me good, when there is only one good, the father in heave. or to that very very near meaning. i think it is in mark 10:15-19, i think... you would need to confirm. and if memory serves me even better, the verse is superb, in showing how we are to get into the eternal kingdom, through the works of the commandments, not just the two lov thy neighbour and love god, but also through the commandments and especially charity. the key point is jesus said he is not good, but only god is, now he was god, why say this? and secondly, he empaszed again the importance of the law, not claiming eternal grace by faith, but this is what we believe, solely on paul's work.


anyways... peace to you all

Jesus does not say that He is not good. We do know that Jesus was sinless and God was well pleased with Him. The parable teaches about the hoarding of wealth not about just entering into the Kingdom of God.

 

[it'sme]

LOL!!! You do really need to study Kenosis. Read Philippians 2:7.

Philippians 2:7 (New American Standard Bible)

7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Footnotes:

1. Philippians 2:7 I.e. laid aside His privileges

We already know Jesus had a pre human life.
He laid aside his privileges. Who did he get the privileges from?
All the scriptures have to fit, I have posted many of these scriptures on who God is and who Jesus is, they all fit, so there is no other possibility.
If you want to stay with the Trinity idea, that certainly is your right to do so. But I have shown from the bible and from other sources on where the Trinity came from, that this idea is pagan and when it came into Christianity. All I can do is tell you things the rest is up to you.
There is a good reason why the Trinity is a mystery, becasue it is not truth. It comes from the pagans.

 

[Der Alte]

The Church's allowed Constantine to push this Trinity idea on them in the 4 th century. Even though the Trintiy was from pagan religions.

There is NO, ZERO, NONE credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any of this. This is nothing but anti-Trinitarian diatribe that is floating around all over the internet, and many people will believe anything, written by anybody, from anywhere as long as it supports their assumptions/presuppositions. Constantine was an Arian he did not believe in a Trinity. There is no evidence of a pagan trinity or triad in any society which could have influenced the early church.

This accuses 300+ Christian bishops of doing nothing, saying nothing while someone supposedly forced some pagan idea on the entire church. All the bishops at Nicaea had faced torture and death by the Romans because they would not worship their pagan deities or the emperor. Constantine had stopped the persecution only a few years before Nicaea, when he became a Christian, according to two historians, who lived at the time, Eusebius and Lactantius.

 

[Hentenza]

We already know Jesus had a pre human life.

Indeed. Jesus has always been just as the Father.

He laid aside his privileges. Who did he get the privileges from?

Privileges? A divine being is perfect and therefore, only Him can empty Himself.

All the scriptures have to fit, I have posted many of these scriptures on who God is and who Jesus is, they all fit, so there is no other possibility.

The scripture that you have posted do not follow under your belief.

If you want to stay with the Trinity idea, that certainly is your right to do so. But I have shown from the bible and from other sources on where the Trinity came from, that this idea is pagan and when it came into Christianity. All I can do is tell you things the rest is up to you.
There is a good reason why the Trinity is a mystery, becasue it is not truth. It comes from the pagans.

There is absolutely no proof that the Trinity comes from pagans. None.

BTW- DerAlter has already fully addressed this and you are yet to respond to his posts directly. The same as you have evaded addressing my posts regarding Jesus being divine by necessity.

 

[Der Alte]

We already know Jesus had a pre human life.
He laid aside his privileges. Who did he get the privileges from?
All the scriptures have to fit, I have posted many of these scriptures on who God is and who Jesus is, they all fit, so there is no other possibility.

Apparently your idea of "making scripture fit" is to ignore the 220+ passages of scripture I have posted

If you want to stay with the Trinity idea, that certainly is your right to do so. But I have shown from the bible and from other sources on where the Trinity came from, that this idea is pagan and when it came into Christianity. All I can do is tell you things the rest is up to you.
There is a good reason why the Trinity is a mystery, becasue it is not truth. It comes from the pagans.

You keep saying this over and over and over but you have never shown any evidence of a pagan Trinity, anywhere. There was no trinity, not even a triad of deities, in any society which could have influenced the early church.

 

[it'sme]

Jesus does not say that He is not good. We do know that Jesus was sinless and God was well pleased with Him. The parable teaches about the hoarding of wealth not about just entering into the Kingdom of God.

I'm not sure you meant good or God. But i have an answer for both.

Mark 10:17-19 (New American Standard Bible)

The Rich Young Ruler

17As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Jesus was a good man, but he reconized that he got this from his Father.




John 10:36-39 (Amplified Bible)

36[If that is true] do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?
37If I am not doing the works [performing the deeds] of My Father, then do not believe Me [do not adhere to Me and trust Me and rely on Me].


Jesus said he is God's Son, and that people did not believe him ( thats the same today) But he also said he is in union with his Father ( that means in thoughts and deeds)


Jesus tells us who he is. There is no doubt, about this.
All the scriptures fit if you have the correct understanding.

 

[it'sme]

Apparently your idea of "making scripture fit" is to ignore the 220+ passages of scripture I have posted

If you want to stay with the Trinity idea, that certainly is your right to do so. But I have shown from the bible and from other sources on where the Trinity came from, that this idea is pagan and when it came into Christianity. All I can do is tell you things the rest is up to you.
There is a good reason why the Trinity is a mystery, becasue it is not truth. It comes from the pagans.
​

You keep saying this over and over and over but you have never shown any evidence of a pagan Trinity, anywhere. There was no trinity, not even a triad of deities, in any society which could have influenced the early church.

All those scriptures you posted say the same thing, Jesus is with his Father, or that Jesus is God's Son. or that they are in union with each other. Which one of those scriptures contradicts that?

 

[Der Alte]

All those scriptures you posted say the same thing, Jesus is with his Father, or that Jesus is God's Son. or that they are in union with each other. Which one of those scriptures contradicts that?

Blatantly false statement. You evidently have not read anything I posted.

 

[it'sme]

There is absolutely no proof that the Trinity comes from pagans. None.

BTW- DerAlter has already fully addressed this and you are yet to respond to his posts directly. The same as you have evaded addressing my posts regarding Jesus being divine by necessity.

I have posted this before.
If you don't want to accept it, I can't do anything about that. But i do take what the bible says seriously and the research that has gone on.
What these Encyclopædia's and the bible scriptures on who God is and who Jesus is fits. If others have a different idea that is up to them.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.
Even though, as Trinitarians acknowledge, neither the word “Trinity” nor a statement of the Trinitarian dogma is found in the Bible, are the concepts that are embodied in that dogma found there?

 

[it'sme]

Blatantly false statement. You evidently have not read anything I posted.

Then give me a scripture that you think contradicts what Jesus says about being Gods Son.

 

[it'sme]

[16] Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [יהוה] is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
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[17] Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

N.T. reference.
1 Pet 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [Christ, vs. 16]
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[18] Zech 12:10 And I [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

The oldest Hebrew manuscripts present the name in the form of four consonants, commonly called the Tetragrammaton (from Greek te&#8231;tra-, meaning &#8220;four,&#8221; and gram&#8242;ma, &#8220;letter&#8221; [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;]). These four letters (written from right to left) are [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] and may be transliterated into English as YHWH (or, JHVH). Jehovah
If you don't believe me check out this site, It is a interlinear translation of the text. You will see where the translators substituted Lord for Gods personal name Jehovah. They have a number of translations there. You can see for yourself, what the bible says. and what the translations say.

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software
You have to download a small program for it to run, it has to do this becasue of the fonts.
You can blame the translators for this, if your bible does not have the name in all the places.

 

[dondaddy]

Cant Jesus be both God and man?
"For by Him all things are posible!"
What about the millenial reign?
Doesnt Jesus come back to rule the earth as it shouldve been from the beginning.
When Adam was put on earth he was king of the earth. But satan tricked him and he gave up his dominion. So Jesus was promised to give the earth and it's bounty back to mankind. When He come back is Adam gonna be King? Not IMO!
It will be Jesus! Adam will be happy to serve Him, which all men should be!
Wether He is God or not, doent matter since He is raised up by God as our KING!

 

[it'sme]

Cant Jesus be both God and man?
"For by Him all things are posible!"
What about the millenial reign?
Doesnt Jesus come back to rule the earth as it shouldve been from the beginning.
When Adam was put on earth he was king of the earth. But satan tricked him and he gave up his dominion. So Jesus was promised to give the earth and it's bounty back to mankind. When He come back is Adam gonna be King? Not IMO!
It will be Jesus! Adam will be happy to serve Him, which all men should be!
Wether He is God or not, doent matter since He is raised up by God as our KING!

Jesus is a God but not God the Father. They are distinct beings, and there is a huge difference. God is not the same as the creation, and Jesus was the firstborn of all the creation of God the Father. Besides Jesus tells us he has a God ( Jehovah), and it is the same one we worship. Jesus gave credit to his Father many times.
There is no mention of Adam coming back.
It's not what we think it is about what God thinks. We have to adjust our thinking, to suit God, not the other way round.
This is very important, to know who God really is.

 

[it'sme]

This accuses 300+ Christian bishops of doing nothing, saying nothing while someone supposedly forced some pagan idea on the entire church. All the bishops at Nicaea had faced torture and death by the Romans because they would not worship their pagan deities or the emperor. Constantine had stopped the persecution only a few years before Nicaea, when he became a Christian, according to two historians, who lived at the time, Eusebius and Lactantius.

Actually they were ordered to come to this meeting, many of them didn't show up, becasue they knew it was wrong about the Trinity, it was pagan.
But some did attend. These didn't like it, but went along with it. Over time the Trinity came to be accepted into the Church. There is more no this in the bible, itself. But that is a little too advanced for what we are talking now.

 

[Hentenza]

Actually they were ordered to come to this meeting, many of them didn't show up, becasue they knew it was wrong about the Trinity, it was pagan.
But some did attend. These didn't like it, but went along with it. Over time the Trinity came to be accepted into the Church. There is more no this in the bible, itself. But that is a little too advanced for what we are talking now.

Again with the unfounded accusations that the Trinity is of pagan origins. Can you provide any evidence other that your opinion?

 

[it'sme]

Again with the unfounded accusations that the Trinity is of pagan origins. Can you provide any evidence other that your opinion?

I don't like to use my opinion, it can't always be trusted.
Go back and reread the posts I sent on that.
If you can't accept that, or what the bible says, why would you believe me, or any other evidence, whats wrong with the evidence I sent already?

 

[gort]

Then give me a scripture that you think contradicts what Jesus says about being Gods Son.

There is no trinitarian who would contradict Jesus being the son of God.

Trinitarians hold to GOd the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit

 

[it'sme]

Originally Posted by it'sme

Then give me a scripture that you think contradicts what Jesus says about being Gods Son.
​

There is no trinitarian who would contradict Jesus being the son of God.

Trinitarians hold to GOd the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit

Yes I do understand that. But that is not correct. To believe that denies the bible saying that Jesus was the first born of creation. It also denies the relationship Jesus has with his Father ( as a Son ). Jesus could have failed the test when he came to earth, he even asked his Father , that if would allow this cup to pass him by , but not as his will but as his Fathers will. Jesus even said he has a God. There are so many scriptures on this, the bible is based on this, the ransom is based on this.
The idea of a Trinity came from false religion, it was not considered with the Jews. They were looking for Gods' Son.
The bible is in harmony with itself, but to bring something like this into it ,what would be the difference to any other false religion, that there is in this world.
God wants his people to know the truth. But in history it has always been a few that Jehovah, accepts. Which fulfills scripture.
Luke 10:2 (New International Version)

2He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.


Matthew 7:13-14 (New International Version) The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


In Noah,s time 8 people survived out of an estimate of about 1 million.
That is few.
God does not just accept anything.