Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt

[BABerean2]

Prof. Michael Heiser is confident that the event in Revelation 12 occurred 2000 years at the birth of the Messiah.

(Or at least in some sort of "space travel" sense the effects arrived finally at Earth at the birth of the Messiah.)

The imagery suggests that the dragon knew of God's Messianic plan in advance

The beginning of Revelation chapter 12 is a history lesson.


Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.


Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

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[BABerean2]

When the seventh trumpet blows, there is the war in the second heaven, and Satan and his angels is cast down... Babylon is fallen is fallen, is the dismantling of Satan and his angels invisible Kingdom. Satan, according to the text, knows what it means, his time of being a terror is almost up.

When the 7th angel blows Satan's time is up.
The text says it is the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever".

Then we have "the time of the judgment of the dead" with "reward" for some and "destruction" for others a few verses later.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The beginning of Revelation chapter 12 is a history lesson, which includes the fall of Satan and the birth and death of the "man-child", who is Christ.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

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[Douggg]

When the 7th angel blows Satan's time is up.
The text says it is the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever".

Then we have "the time of the judgment of the dead" with "reward" for some and "destruction" for others a few verses later.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The beginning of Revelation chapter 12 is a history lesson, which includes the fall of Satan and the birth and death of the "man-child", who is Christ.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

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BaB2, it is "are become". That has a different meaning than have become. The 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 - before the war in heaven takes place is the same 1260 days of the two witnesses.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It is saying that the time of Satan and his angels, kingdom and operation to continue as it has in the past is being terminated and dismantled. That God is going to proceed with his plan to judge the dead according to their works. And reward the prophets and saints and them who fear His name.

And those who seek to destroy his creation, God is about to destroy them.

It is not talking about judgment of the dead at right that very second. Nor reward of the prophets, saints, and them who fear His Name at right that very second. That's the way you are interpreting it, but that is not what is being said.

 

[Erik Nelson]

In Rev 12, the dragon has "a few seasons" (oligos Kairos). In Rev 20:3, Satan has "a little time" (mikros chronos).

Paul uses both terms "times & seasons" in 1 Thess 5:1.

 

[BABerean2]

It is not talking about judgment of the dead at right that very second. Nor reward of the prophets, saints, and them who fear His Name at right that very second. That's the way you are interpreting it, but that is not what is being said.

Really...

What does the text say?

Revelation 11:18

(CJB) "The Goyim raged. But now your rage has come, the time for the dead to be judged, the time for rewarding your servants the prophets and your holy people, those who stand in awe of your name, both small and great. It is also the time for destroying those who destroy the earth."

(ESV) The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

(Geneva) And the Gentiles were angrie, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they shoulde be iudged, and that thou shouldest giue reward vnto thy seruants the Prophets, and to the Saintes, and to them that feare thy Name, to small and great, and shouldest destroy them, which destroy the earth.

(Greek NT TR) και τα εθνη ωργισθησαν και ηλθεν η οργη σου και ο καιρος των νεκρων κριθηναι και δουναι τον μισθον τοις δουλοις σου τοις προφηταις και τοις αγιοις και τοις φοβουμενοις το ονομα σου τοις μικροις και τοις μεγαλοις και διαφθειραι τους διαφθειροντας την γην

(GW) The nations were angry, but your anger has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged: to reward your servants, the prophets, your holy people, and those who fear your name, no matter if they are important or unimportant, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

(LITV-TSP) And the nations were full of wrath; and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your slaves, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.

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[LittleLambofJesus]

In Rev 12, the dragon has "a few seasons" (oligos Kairos). In Rev 20:3, Satan has "a little time" (mikros chronos).
Paul uses both terms "times & seasons" in 1 Thess 5:1.

Very interesting.
Those same words are also used in Reve 6:11. Fascinating!

Revelation 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little<3398> time<5550>
until their fellow servants also and their brethren, the ones about to be being killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:
3 And he casts him into the abyss, and he locks and he seals over of him,
that no he should still be deceiving the nations until should-be-being-finished/telesqh <5055> (5686) the thousand years.
After these, it is binding him to be loosed him a little<3398> time<5550>.

5550. chronos khron'-os of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from 2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion;
Strong's Number G5550 matches the Greek χρόνος (chronos), which occurs 53 times in 53 verses

For those interested, I started a thread on Reve 20:1-3

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-about-reve-20-verses-1-thru-3.8071504/

 

[Douggg]

Really...

What does the text say?

The text says the time has come - but it does not mean right that second, because it says in Revelation 20 the dead are judged at the end of the thousand years at the Great White Throne judgment.

And them to reign with Christ for a thousand years is after God's wrath has been taken out on the nations over the course of the great tribulation lasting 1335 days, in the form of the bowl (vial) judgments.

Given those things spelled out in Revelation not to be right that second, but follow the course of events, a person has to try and understand what that verse is saying. And what it means is that prosecution of Satan and dismantling of his kingdom begins right then - when the seventh trumpet sounds - which will result that all those things being fulfilled in the manner spelled out in the rest of Revelation.

Muddying the issue with multiple translations is not going to change things, BaB2.

 

[BABerean2]

The text says the time has come - but it does not mean right that second, because it says in Revelation 20 the dead are judged at the end of the thousand years at the Great White Throne judgment.

In other words the text cannot mean what it says, because it destroys your interpretation of Revelation chapter 20.

Forget that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the Book of Revelation.

Forget that the text of Revelation 11:15 says it is when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever".

Forget that the text of Revelation 11:18 says it is the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some and destruction for others.

Forget that Revelation 12 contains the birth and death of Christ.

Even though we have Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19, you are still claiming that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order.

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[Douggg]

In other words the text cannot mean what it says, because it destroys your interpretation of Revelation chapter 20.

It means what it says. But you have to figure out what it is saying to comply with other parts of Revelation.

 

[Douggg]

In other words the text cannot mean what it says, because it destroys your interpretation of Revelation chapter 20.

Forget that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the Book of Revelation.

Forget that the text of Revelation 11:15 says it is when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever".

Forget that the text of Revelation 11:18 says it is the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some and destruction for others.

Forget that Revelation 12 contains the birth and death of Christ.

Even though we have Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19, you are still claiming that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order.

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You aren't explaining anything BaB2, just more muddying.

 

[Davy]

In Rev 11:8 Jerusalem is called Sodom because it is where, when Jesus died and arose from the dead He completely wiped out sin as He did in Sodom when He completely destroyed it by fire and brimstone. Analysis of the ashen remains of Sodom, which was rediscovered by Wyatt Archeological Research, has shown that this comparison is accurate since they could not reignite the ashen remains that they recovered from the site of Gomorrah.
Jerusalem is mystically called Egypt because when Jesus died and arose from the dead in Jerusalem He released us from the captivity of death as He by His power alone released Israel, which symbolizes Christians, from captivity in Egypt.
Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Bro. James D Albright

That's really more of a mystical spiritualizing instead of getting at the real reason why that verse is spiritually linking Jerusalem with Sodom and Egypt.

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

In that future time of God's 2 witnesses, they will be given to prophesy for 1260 days against the beast. The Antichrist will be in power then over the whole earth. And Jerusalem is where the Antichrist will sit as God (2 Thess.2:3-4). So Jerusalem in that future time will have fallen into false worship, the "abomination of desolation" idol Jesus warned of from the Book of Daniel being setup there.

Thus Jerusalem in THAT... time, will be comparable to the old pagan cities of Sodom and pagan nations like old Egypt, because of that future false worship.

 

[BABerean2]

It means what it says. But you have to figure out what it is saying to comply with other parts of Revelation.

You are getting close to the truth in your statement above.

You have to figure out what Revelation chapter 20 is saying in order to make it comply with the rest of the New Testament.

The bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead is found in John 5:27-30.

We find the judgment of the living at His return in Matthew 25:31-46.

He judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.

He returns "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet found in the Bible.
The text says this world becomes the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever", when the 7th trumpet is blown.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is in Revelation 11:18.

The birth and death of Christ is found at the beginning of Revelation 12.

Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19.

If you ignore all of the above, you can make your interpretation of Revelation chapter 20 work.

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[Douggg]

The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet found in the Bible.
The text says this world becomes the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever", when the 7th trumpet is blown.

One step at time before muddying up the waters by delving off into all the verses in the new testament regarding the judgment of the dead. Dealing with Revelation 11:15-18...

1. Before the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and his Christ - who's are they?

2. And if they have become the kingdoms of God and his Christ - why is He pouring out His wrath on His own and Christ's kingdoms? Not going to happen that way, BaB2.

At the time the 7th trumpet sounds, the kingdoms of this world are under Satan's dominion. And at the time the 7th trumpet sounds, God's wrath is going to be poured out on the kingdoms of this world because they are operating under Satan's dominion doing all kind of evil - until Jesus returns - a time, times, half times later.

The two witnesses are killed at the exact midpoint of the 7 years; they lay dead in the streets for 3 1/2 days; they come back to life and are called up to heaven; there is a big earthquake...... and then the seventh trumpet sounds. Times up for Satan and his kingdom. He is cast down to earth with his angels.

He knows he and his kingdom has but a little time left, before it is completely dismantled and he is a terror no more. The time, times, half times.

___________________________________________________________________________
Revelation 11:15-18 is announcing God taking the kingdoms of this world away from Satan at that point. It is not instantaneous. It happens over the time, times, half times.

 

[Erik Nelson]

That's really more of a mystical spiritualizing instead of getting at the real reason why that verse is spiritually linking Jerusalem with Sodom and Egypt.

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

In that future time of God's 2 witnesses, they will be given to prophesy for 1260 days against the beast. The Antichrist will be in power then over the whole earth. And Jerusalem is where the Antichrist will sit as God (2 Thess.2:3-4). So Jerusalem in that future time will have fallen into false worship, the "abomination of desolation" idol Jesus warned of from the Book of Daniel being setup there.

Thus Jerusalem in THAT... time, will be comparable to the old pagan cities of Sodom and pagan nations like old Egypt, because of that future false worship.

from a preterist perspective, the two witnesses living for 1260d = 3.5 years matches Josephus' description of the siege of Jerusalem...

Jerusalem survived 3.5 years before the legions sacked the city, perhaps in parallel to Jesus surviving 3.5 years of ministry before being turned over to Pilate and his legionnaires

 

[Traveling teacher]

didnt God call Israel a harlot in the old Testament.........

(Jeremiah 3:1-13; Ezekiel 16; Hosea 2:2-13

looks like similiar language in Revelation as He refers to the Great Harlot

 

[Erik Nelson]

didnt God call Israel a harlot in the old Testament.........

(Jeremiah 3:1-13; Ezekiel 16; Hosea 2:2-13

looks like similiar language in Revelation as He refers to the Great Harlot

i think that is an accurate view of the Christian portrayal of non Christian Jerusalem in this Christian document

in Revelation 12, the virtuous woman = Christian Church

gives birth to a son = Christ

who is taken to Heaven = Ascension after Crucifixion

then she flees to the wilderness for 1260 days = 3.5 x 360 days = 3.5 years

and the dragon wars against her as the Earth helps her...

which I offer symbolizes the 350 years until after emperor Julian the apostate and the final defeat of the last vestiges of pagan opposition to the Church in the late fourth century AD = "conquest of the promised land after the wilderness wanderings."

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If you accept that Babylon symbolises Jerusalem. Then the reference to the River Euphrates during the sixth trumpet and second woe would refer to the River of Babylon, so being the Jordan River Of Jerusalem, or something essentially similar.

The first 6 trumpets bring plagues reminiscent of those that afflicted Egypt in the book of exodus. But if Sodom Egypt. Babylon symbolizes Jerusalem. Then the plagues on Egypt symbolise plagues on 1st century Jerusalem.

I offer that the seventh trumpet reference is the Second Coming event of Revelation 19 and the first resurrection event of Revelation 20.

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Jacinth is also mentioned in the apocryphal Book of Enoch, where in Enoch's first journey through earth and Sheol, he encounters an enormous mountain of jacinth, or jacinth-like in appearance:

"And I proceeded and saw a place...where there are seven mountains of magnificent stones....
"And as for those towards the east (one) was of coloured stone, and one of pearl, and one of jacinth,
"and those towards the south of red stone." I Enoch XVIII: 6-7.

If the beast of revelation represents the Pagan Empire. Then, perhaps the reference to Hyacinth. Is a reference to one of the 7 mountains observed by Enoch and hence the 7 mountains referring to the Pagan empire Helps identify The armies of the sixth trumpet and Second woe as those of Rome, attacking Babylon on the Euphrates IE Jerusalem on or near say the Jordan River.

 

[BABerean2]

One step at time before muddying up the waters by delving off into all the verses in the new testament regarding the judgment of the dead. Dealing with Revelation 11:15-18...

Who muddies the water in order to ignore all of the scripture which destroys your Premill doctrine.

You are making up scenarios in order to make your doctrine work.


Paul said that we are resurrected at the "last" trumpet in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
Do you deny that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the Book of Revelation?

Paul said that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
Do you deny that this passage is in the Bible, and what does it do to your Premill doctrine?

We find the judgment of the living at His return in Matthew 25:31-46.
What does this passage do to your Premill doctrine?

Christ described the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead in John 5:27-30.
What does this passage do to your Premill doctrine?

The fact is that we find the living "nations", and "wrath", and "the time of the judgment of the dead" with "reward" for some, and "destruction" for others in Revelation 11:18.
This occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
You must either ignore or explain away this verse to make the Premill doctrine work.

Do you deny that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19?
Why do you keep ignoring this fact, which destroys your chronology?

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
You are adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation and you are also ripping Daniel 9:27 out of its context, by claiming that the angel Gabriel never mentioned the New Covenant, even though the passage is about the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant found in Matthew 26:28.
The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.

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[Erik Nelson]

Who muddies the water in order to ignore all of the scripture which destroys your Premill doctrine.

You are making up scenarios in order to make your doctrine work.


Paul said that we are resurrected at the "last" trumpet in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
Do you deny that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the Book of Revelation?

Paul said that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
Do you deny that this passage is in the Bible, and what does it do to your Premill doctrine?

We find the judgment of the living at His return in Matthew 25:31-46.
What does this passage do to your Premill doctrine?

Christ described the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead in John 5:27-30.
What does this passage do to your Premill doctrine?

The fact is that we find the living "nations", and "wrath", and "the time of the judgment of the dead" with "reward" for some, and "destruction" for others in Revelation 11:18.
This occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
You must either ignore or explain away this verse to make the Premill doctrine work.

Do you deny that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19?
Why do you keep ignoring this fact, which destroys your chronology?

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
You are adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation and you are also ripping Daniel 9:27 out of its context, by claiming that the angel Gabriel never mentioned the New Covenant, even though the passage is about the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant found in Matthew 26:28.
The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.

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Is it possible that revelations 19? Is the SECOND coming with the first resurrection? And that. Revelations twenty-ten and following is a THIRD coming. With the second General Resurrection unto judgment of everyone else?

 

[BABerean2]

Is it possible that revelations 19? Is the SECOND coming with the first resurrection? And that. Revelations twenty-ten and following is a THIRD coming. With the second General Resurrection unto judgment of everyone else?

Yes and no.
Chapter 19 is the Second Coming.

However, there are two resurrections in John chapter 5.
The first resurrection in John chapter 5 is the spiritual resurrection found in John 5:24.
I was dead and now I am alive, based on John 5:24.

The second resurrection in John chapter 5 is the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead in John 5:27-30.

The Apostle John recorded both the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

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[Douggg]

Paul said that we are resurrected at the "last" trumpet in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
Do you deny that the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the Book of Revelation?

The bible doesn't say the 7th trumpet in Revelation is the last trump to ever be sounded.

Christ described the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead in John 5:27-30.
What does this passage do to your Premill doctrine?

BaB2, you just muddy the waters. You don't explain anything. How those verses prove your position or make the premill doctrine - which for some reason you want to attack - in error.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

I don't see how that verse contradicts what it says in Revelation 20 of the Great White Throne judgement as the millennium is finished.

Do you deny that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19?
Why do you keep ignoring this fact, which destroys your chronology?

What? I don't have any idea why you making such an accusation. Revelation 16:15-16, the gathering of the nation's armies at Armageddon are intended by them to stop Jesus from returning and executing judgment on the wicked. In Revelation 19, Jesus descends to earth and executes judgment on them.

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.

okay, but I am not saying there is. There is the 7 years of the last week of Daniel 9:27 still to go, however

You are adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation

What? No I am not. I am saying that there are the 7 years in Revelation 12 based on the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, then the war in heaven and Satan and his angels cast down, with a time, times, half times left in Revelation 12:14.

The 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, then some earth time passes for the war in heaven, leaving a time, times, half times in the 7 years in Revelation 12:14.

and you are also ripping Daniel 9:27 out of its context, by claiming that the angel Gabriel never mentioned the New Covenant

Gabriel did not say New Covenant in the text. If he did, then every Jew in the world would be aware of it.
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