Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Hmm]

Apologies to @Hmm
I'm taking this thread WAY off topic.
I'll try to steer back in the right direction shortly

No worries. It's relevent anyway because it shows how people can disagree about almost anything in the Bible. It's as if it's deliberately ambiguous.

For, the Wisdom of the Word is "veiled" (2 Corinthians 3:14).

And this is why Paul likewise considered himself a "steward of the mysteries of God" (1 Corinthians 4:1).

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and 'he did not speak anything to them without a parable'.” (Matthew 13:34)

 

[Matt5]

Presumably God would have foreseen that the vagueness in the Bible about heaven and hell would lead to different interpretations and the arguments we see today about Infernalism, Annihalism and Universalism.

Did He have a good reason for keeping things so undefined?

Mark 4:11-12 seems to suggest so when it talks about why Jesus used parables:

11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything comes in parables, 12 in order that
‘they may indeed look but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.’ ”
​

Is it a deliberate ploy intended to make us reflect on these things as honestly as we can?

Or was it because that Jesus didn't want us to think too much about heaven and hell but instead to focus on living a Godly life while on earth?

Would it have been impossible for Him to have been clearer because our natural fear of the unknown, of "that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns" (Shakespeare), would have led us to interpret His words to conjure up the infernalist vision of something like ECT whatever He had said? The purpose of such a vision would be to justify and authenticate our fears to ourselves.

Or are there other reasons?

This is quite a gloomy topic but the the Good News is that God comes to find us in our misunderstanding and fear and brings us home. This is the universalist vision.

Jesus wants to punish you, so some of the knowledge in the Bible is hidden via parables and metaphors.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25) is instructive. You are being misled from the very beginning by the use of "bridegroom." Why doesn't it say Jesus? It turns out that in the Bible bridegroom can be anyone.

 

[Hmm]

Jesus wants to punish you, so some of the knowledge in the Bible is hidden via parables and metaphors.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25) is instructive. You are being misled from the very beginning by the use of "bridegroom." Why doesn't it say Jesus? It turns out that in the Bible bridegroom can be anyone.

Why do you think all this?

 

[Saint Steven]

No worries. It's relevent anyway because it shows how people can disagree about almost anything in the Bible. It's as if it's deliberately ambiguous.

For, the Wisdom of the Word is "veiled" (2 Corinthians 3:14).

And this is why Paul likewise considered himself a "steward of the mysteries of God" (1 Corinthians 4:1).

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and 'he did not speak anything to them without a parable'.” (Matthew 13:34)

Reminds me of this one.

Matthew 13:13-16 NIV
This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

 

[Hmm]

Reminds me of this one.

Matthew 13:13-16 NIV
This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

It's odd, isn't it, that scripture says about itself that it is deliberately unclear?

Christ says He is intentionally being ambiguous when He speaks through parables and Paul taks about the ambiguity of our understanding about God when he says, "For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12).

I'm not trying to cast doubt on our understanding of Christianity for the sake of it btw. I just think it's important to acknowledge the ambiguity in scripture because this means we won't take our pet theories too seriously.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It's odd, isn't it, that scripture says about itself that it is deliberately unclear?

Christ says He is intentionally being ambiguous when He speaks through parables and Paul taks about the ambiguity of our understanding about God when he says, "For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12).

I'm not trying to cast doubt on our understanding of Christianity for the sake of it btw. I just think it's important to acknowledge the ambiguity in scripture because this means we won't take our pet theories too seriously.

I like your (and @Saint Steven 's) descriptions, but I don't think ambiguity is the right word for the phenomenon. (Not that I have a better one currently handy —maybe 'unclear' is better; it doesn't equal 'ambiguous', but it is vague). I think, not only that God always has a specific meaning to even the general statements he makes, but that we are the ones who get ambiguity from it. Even as your quote from Paul (1 Corinthians 13:12) says "...we see darkly..." (my emphasis). And Paul then shows that there is clarity, but it is not for us quite yet, in, "...then shall I know fully..."

I think it is, however, incumbent on us to think and wonder about these things, rather than to be lazy or worse, and just shrug our shoulders, saying, "Oh well, God doesn't see fit to make it plain what he means, so I guess he doesn't intend that I know", and turn our minds to other, more easy, pickings.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm agreeing with you and just saying it may be something that can only be settled by a new Nicene council. But what are the chances of that? I'm a realist too!

While it does depend on who you ask, it can be argued that the last truly ecumenical council hasn't been since the 8th century at the Second Council of Nicea which met to address the Iconoclast controversy. No council since then has attained the same level of general consensus among Christians as to be called a truly ecumenical council. Roman Catholicism counts many more councils since then as ecumenical, with the last being the Second Vatican Council in the 1960's. The Oriental Orthodox recognize the 5th century Council of Ephesus as the last ecumenical council, and some Protestants (I'm thinking mostly in the Reformed tradition) may only recognize the councils up to Chalcedon.

But the point I'm kind of making is that, at best, the last time we've had a truly church-wide council was over 1,200 years ago. So it is highly unlikely, especially given just how much more Christians are divided today than over a millennium ago, that we will ever see something like that again. At least, not in the foreseeable future.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Andrewn]

Suspected jihadists kill more than 130 civilians in central Mali, officials say

Everyone knows how much evil there is in the world. War is not only in Ukraine. I'm posting this link for emphasis. If UR is true, God has a very difficult job to do. How does He get these monsters to repent?

 

[Jamdoc]

Good topic, thanks.
This question, quoted above, caught my eye.

Seems to be exactly what happened. The emphasis on an eternal destiny became the primary driver of the church.

There was a topic a while back where the question was asked: "If there was no afterlife, would you still follow Jesus?" (something like that) I was shocked at the majority response. A firm and resounding, "No. With no afterlife it would be pointless." (something like that)

No value was seen in a right relationship with God, in the here and now, if there was no "reward" of heaven.

To that end the church has labels. The "lost", the "saved", the "Elect", predestination, etc. Us and them.

Well.. is it so wrong?
Paul would have agreed

1 Corinthians 15

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

 

[earthmover]

Well.. is it so wrong?
Paul would have agreed

1 Corinthians 15

But to ask a question like that is the same as in Gen3:1...'yeah hath GOD said?"

The Bible(HisWORD) tells us that there is HOPE and only one way to His father and that is through Jesus Christ...Many churches are not Preaching/teaching this.

earthmover

 

[earthmover]

No worries. It's relevent anyway because it shows how people can disagree about almost anything in the Bible. It's as if it's deliberately ambiguous.

For, the Wisdom of the Word is "veiled" (2 Corinthians 3:14).

And this is why Paul likewise considered himself a "steward of the mysteries of God" (1 Corinthians 4:1).

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and 'he did not speak anything to them without a parable'.” (Matthew 13:34)

Jesus also told us that those listening who were believers, understood the parables and those that did not believe, did not understand them...

We have a lot of people that bring the cause of their unbelief as the parables. when it should be the other way around. Believe and Ye shall understand,mainly because, most of the parables were interpreted by Jesus himself and they are in HIS WORD!


earthmover.

Blade

 

[martymonster]

Yes, it is fuzzy by design. It has been done that way, to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Jamdoc]

But to ask a question like that is the same as in Gen3:1...'yeah hath GOD said?"

The Bible(HisWORD) tells us that there is HOPE and only one way to His father and that is through Jesus Christ...Many churches are not Preaching/teaching this.

earthmover

Well ultimately I think the promise of salvation is inseparably connected to why we would love and choose to serve God. So it was a question that was kind of a thought exercise I suppose, but I don't think God would expect us to serve and love Him if all He had for us was this one mortal life on this cursed Earth. Paul seemed to think "if this is it? and we sacrifice what pleasures are available to us just to die and that's all? We're even more miserable than other people"
Cause I mean, Paul's ministry got him lashed and imprisoned and even stoned to near death. If it was just this one life? Yeah Paul would consider himself miserable.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I like your (and @Saint Steven 's) descriptions, but I don't think ambiguity is the right word for the phenomenon. (Not that I have a better one currently handy —maybe 'unclear' is better; it doesn't equal 'ambiguous', but it is vague). I think, not only that God always has a specific meaning to even the general statements he makes, but that we are the ones who get ambiguity from it. Even as your quote from Paul (1 Corinthians 13:12) says "...we see darkly..." (my emphasis). And Paul then shows that there is clarity, but it is not for us quite yet, in, "...then shall I know fully..."

I think it is, however, incumbent on us to think and wonder about these things, rather than to be lazy or worse, and just shrug our shoulders, saying, "Oh well, God doesn't see fit to make it plain what he means, so I guess he doesn't intend that I know", and turn our minds to other, more easy, pickings.

Jesus was speaking to unconverted Jews before His crucifixion and resurrection. He promised that for those who received Him, the Helper, who is the Holy Spirit, who will be in them, will bring to remembrance all that Jesus taught them and will lead them into all truth. Paul says that eye has not seen nor ear heart the things that God has for us, but they have been clearly revealed. The Holy Spirit does not speak to us in parables. The Apostle John says that the Anointing, the Holy Spirit, will teach us all things.

So, the account of Jesus teaching in parables, is part of the descriptive historical narrative about the life and teaching of Jesus to the unconverted Jews. It does not apply to converted Christian believers, because there is nothing in the text to say that it should be prescriptive to believers who will have the indwelling Holy Spirit on and after the Day of Pentecost.

We need to be careful not to try to apply Biblical text that is not intended to apply directly to us. To say that Jesus is deliberately deceiving us by teaching the Jews in parables is just sheer nonsense and butchering the Scripture text to try to make it mean something that it doesn't.

 

[Hmm]

Suspected jihadists kill more than 130 civilians in central Mali, officials say

Everyone knows how much evil there is in the world. War is not only in Ukraine. I'm posting this link for emphasis. If UR is true, God has a very difficult job to do. How does He get these monsters to repent?

It's a tough question. I'd like to think that even the people who committed those war crimes in the link would, if they were shown and were somehow made to understand the extent of the sorrow they caused, genuinely repent. We do hear conversion stories sometimes of where that does happen. I agree, it would be a difficult job, not least because people usually try to justify their actions to themselves. A common theme in these stories is that it was very hard to admit to themselves what they had done and they needed God's love to help them forgive themselves. But, however hard it must be to acknowledge responsibility for crimes of this magnitude, can a finite will hold out forever against God?

 

[Hmm]

Jesus also told us that those listening who were believers, understood the parables and those that did not believe, did not understand them...

We have a lot of people that bring the cause of their unbelief as the parables. when it should be the other way around. Believe and Ye shall understand,mainly because, most of the parables were interpreted by Jesus himself and they are in HIS WORD!


earthmover.

Blade

But does every believer understand the parables in the exact same way? If they did, wouldn't the church be as one?

Universalists understand the parables of the The Lost Sheep, The Lost Coin, and The Lost (Prodigal) Son as conveying the message of universal restoration but you, as a Calvinist, probably interpret them as the restoration of the Elect only. So the fuzziness is still there and we haven't understood what Jesus meant by those words you quoted.

 

[Hmm]

So, the account of Jesus teaching in parables, is part of the descriptive historical narrative about the life and teaching of Jesus to the unconverted Jews. It does not apply to converted Christian believers, because there is nothing in the text to say that it should be prescriptive to believers who will have the indwelling Holy Spirit on and after the Day of Pentecost.

Is that the Pentecostal position? I would have thought that the parables are meant for everyone and for all time even though the Bible doesn't explicitly say that. It doesn't sound right to me to say, to take just one at random, that the parable of the Good Samaritan was only intended for unconverted Jews who lived at the time of Jesus. Or is it also meant for unconverted Jews living today? Does the Bible explicitly say that?

Like you, I believe that the Holy Spirit helps us understand things but he (if that's the pronoun) doesn't work in a vacuum and some of the things he helps us understand are the parables.

 

[martymonster]

OK, so I was on my phone before, which does not make it very easy to post properly on this forum, but I'm back on my desktop now, so here goes.

Christ tells us point blank, why scripture is deliberately fuzzy, and yes, I said deliberately.


Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


Christ just couldn't be anymore explicit about the subject, if he tried. But how many believe his words? Not many, because the can't hear his words. Most Christians are too busy trying to sidestep the word of God, to have time to believe anything he says.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is that the Pentecostal position? I would have thought that the parables are meant for everyone and for all time even though the Bible doesn't explicitly say that. It doesn't sound right to me to say, to take just one at random, that the parable of the Good Samaritan was only intended for unconverted Jews who lived at the time of Jesus. Or is it also meant for unconverted Jews living today? Does the Bible explicitly say that?

Like you, I believe that the Holy Spirit helps us understand things but he (if that's the pronoun) doesn't work in a vacuum and some of the things he helps us understand are the parables.

There are things in Scripture that are written for us, in that they are there for our education. But the are not direct instructions to us.

You mentioned the parable of the good Samaritan. It is there for our education in that if we see a person in trouble, even it they are not, in our view, loveable people, or racially different from us, we need to do what we can to help them. But we cannot apply that particular situation to us because we wouldn't be travelling in an area where there are robbers, and we wouldn't be seeing Jewish Levites or priests along the road. Also we wouldn't be required to take the person to the nearest hotel and to pay enough money to have him looked after until he got well.

If we saw a person injured and bleeding on the street, we would phone an ambulance for him so he can be taken to hospital to be treated.

So is what I mean about the difference between a Scripture written for our education, and another Scripture written as direction to do exactly what the Scripture says.

 

[Hmm]

There are things in Scripture that are written for us, in that they are there for our education. But the are not direct instructions to us.

I don't think Jesus was giving a academic lecture when He told us the parables. He was describing what the Christian life should look like.

But we cannot apply that particular situation to us because we wouldn't be travelling in an area where there are robbers, and we wouldn't be seeing Jewish Levites or priests along the road.

I find this remark totally bizarre. We'll see that there is need all around us if we open our eyes.

Also we wouldn't be required to take the person to the nearest hotel and to pay enough money to have him looked after until he got well.

Why ever not? Jesus told us to go the extra mile, to be our brother's keeper and if someone asks for a shirt, to give them our coat as well.

If we saw a person injured and bleeding on the street, we would phone an ambulance for him so he can be taken to hospital to be treated.

I would too but we can't rule out in advance that sometimes God will require more of us. We need to use our discernment according to the circumstances, not have a set of pre-prepared rules that we can use to excuse token or no effort.

So is what I mean about the difference between a Scripture written for our education, and another Scripture written as direction to do exactly what the Scripture says.

But that's the whole point of parables - they don't say exactly what we need to do. We are called to be mature and discerning.