Why God created some when he knew they would experience hell?

[ArmyMatt]

Are you talking about the post below? Could you provide a link for that? If you already did, I'm sorry. Just point to the post number.

no, sorry, I said I don't have links, but did give some books.

 

[Anna Scott]

no, sorry, I said I don't have links, but did give some books.

Oh well. I'll sign off.

 

[Kaon]

again, because He loves them.

Loves who?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Loves who?

those in hell. it's what makes hell, hell.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh well. I'll sign off.

oh please don't, I just gave book references off the top of my head.

 

[Kaon]

those in hell. it's what makes hell, hell.

Right. But, this doesn't address why He allegedly did what He did (make these vessels of destruction), especially if He loves them. So far, we are discussing the sentiment for the consequences instead of the reason for the case altogether.

For example, why couldn't the Most High God find another way to exhibit His wrath without the need for hell?

I don't want to debate anything, I just wanted to know if it was possible to explain.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Right. But, this doesn't address why He allegedly did what He did (make these vessels of destruction), especially if He loves them. So far, we are discussing the sentiment for the consequences instead of the reason for the case altogether.

For example, why couldn't the Most High God find another way to exhibit His wrath without the need for hell?

I don't want to debate anything, I just wanted to know if it was possible to explain.

wrath IS love in the face of the unrepentant.

 

[Anna Scott]

oh please don't, I just gave book references off the top of my head.

It just doesn't seem like we are getting anywhere with an answer regarding why God created people knowing they were destined for torment.

Maybe the answer is simply that God created man for His pleasure and His glory. For a reason known only to God, He chose to create people who will suffer eternally.

As I said before, God is God. He makes the rules. If nothing is higher than God, if nothing imposes limitations on God, if nothing dictates to God; then we are left with the reality that God chose to make us as He did. He chose to create man knowing many will suffer eternally. God could have created us differently, but He didn't. That's the cold hard reality.

And it seems that it is a sin to even question God's reasons. We are, after all, the clay, the created.

Isaiah 29:15-17 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
15 Woe to those who hide deep from the Lord their counsel,
whose deeds are in the dark,
and who say, “Who sees us? Who knows us?”
16 You turn things upside down!
Shall the potter be regarded as the clay;
that the thing made should say of its maker,
“He did not make me”;
or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?


It's all really depressing, when I think about it very much. We are born through suffering. Life is full of suffering. Salvation was accomplished through suffering, and eternity is full of suffering for many, of which I may be one. Even if that is not the case, those I love may suffer eternally. How could that bring any happiness to my eternal state? All of this comes from God who is Love. It makes no sense to me, but I am a mere mortal, suffering through this life.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It just doesn't seem like we are getting anywhere with an answer regarding why God created people knowing they were destined for torment.

Maybe the answer is simply that God created man for His pleasure and His glory. For a reason known only to God, He chose to create people who will suffer eternally.

As I said before, God is God. He makes the rules. If nothing is higher than God, if nothing imposes limitations on God, if nothing dictates to God; then we are left with the reality that God chose to make us as He did. He chose to create man knowing many will suffer eternally. God could have created us differently, but He didn't. That's the cold hard reality.

And it seems that it is a sin to even question God's reasons. We are, after all, the clay, the created.

I hope you'll keep asking. What I can say is that you seem to be confirming a certain Protestant bias, and haven't yet gotten at what Orthodoxy teaches. I understand it may be frustrating.

 

[Toolbelt]

It just doesn't seem like we are getting anywhere with an answer regarding why God created people knowing they were destined for torment.

Maybe the answer is simply that God created man for His pleasure and His glory. For a reason known only to God, He chose to create people who will suffer eternally.

As I said before, God is God. He makes the rules. If nothing is higher than God, if nothing imposes limitations on God, if nothing dictates to God; then we are left with the reality that God chose to make us as He did. He chose to create man knowing many will suffer eternally. God could have created us differently, but He didn't. That's the cold hard reality.

And it seems that it is a sin to even question God's reasons. We are, after all, the clay, the created.

Isaiah 29:15-17 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
15 Woe to those who hide deep from the Lord their counsel,
whose deeds are in the dark,
and who say, “Who sees us? Who knows us?”
16 You turn things upside down!
Shall the potter be regarded as the clay;
that the thing made should say of its maker,
“He did not make me”;
or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?


It's all really depressing, when I think about it very much. We are born through suffering. Life is full of suffering. Salvation was accomplished through suffering, and eternity is full of suffering for many, of which I may be one. Even if that is not the case, those I love may suffer eternally. How could that bring any happiness to my eternal state? All of this comes from God who is Love. It makes no sense to me, but I am a mere mortal, suffering through this life.

This isn't the whole story. Our perception of god is transformed when we see things that are veiled. don't despair because your analysis of the situation isn't clear.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It just doesn't seem like we are getting anywhere with an answer regarding why God created people knowing they were destined for torment.

Maybe the answer is simply that God created man for His pleasure and His glory. For a reason known only to God, He chose to create people who will suffer eternally.

As I said before, God is God. He makes the rules. If nothing is higher than God, if nothing imposes limitations on God, if nothing dictates to God; then we are left with the reality that God chose to make us as He did. He chose to create man knowing many will suffer eternally. God could have created us differently, but He didn't. That's the cold hard reality.

And it seems that it is a sin to even question God's reasons. We are, after all, the clay, the created.

Isaiah 29:15-17 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
15 Woe to those who hide deep from the Lord their counsel,
whose deeds are in the dark,
and who say, “Who sees us? Who knows us?”
16 You turn things upside down!
Shall the potter be regarded as the clay;
that the thing made should say of its maker,
“He did not make me”;
or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?


It's all really depressing, when I think about it very much. We are born through suffering. Life is full of suffering. Salvation was accomplished through suffering, and eternity is full of suffering for many, of which I may be one. Even if that is not the case, those I love may suffer eternally. How could that bring any happiness to my eternal state? All of this comes from God who is Love. It makes no sense to me, but I am a mere mortal, suffering through this life.

because you yourself will be so filled with the love of God and neighbor, that is all you will be focused on. this is the subplot of basically every Hallmark movie. two young people are so in love with each other, that they don't notice time, other people, etc.

 

[Anna Scott]

This isn't the whole story. Our perception of god is transformed when we see things that are veiled. don't despair because your analysis of the situation isn't clear.

I hope you'll keep asking. What I can say is that you seem to be confirming a certain Protestant bias, and haven't yet gotten at what Orthodoxy teaches. I understand it may be frustrating.

Toolbelt & Anastasia,
I know that you are trying to help, but telling me I have a "Protestant bias" or indicating that I am not seeing what is "veiled" doesn't directly address anything in my post.

What part of what I have said is not true?

Are we not created for God's pleasure and glory?
Maybe the answer is simply that God created man for His pleasure and His glory. For a reason known only to God, He chose to create people who will suffer eternally.

Is God not able to make the rules and create as He chooses?
As I said before, God is God. He makes the rules. If nothing is higher than God, if nothing imposes limitations on God, if nothing dictates to God; then we are left with the reality that God chose to make us as He did. He chose to create man knowing many will suffer eternally. God could have created us differently, but He didn't. That's the cold hard reality.

Can you deny that all this suffering exists?
It's all really depressing, when I think about it very much. We are born through suffering. Life is full of suffering. Salvation was accomplished through suffering, and eternity is full of suffering for many, of which I may be one. Even if that is not the case, those I love may suffer eternally. How could that bring any happiness to my eternal state? All of this comes from God who is Love. It makes no sense to me, but I am a mere mortal, suffering through this life.

 

[Anna Scott]

because you yourself will be so filled with the love of God and neighbor, that is all you will be focused on. this is the subplot of basically every Hallmark movie. two young people are so in love with each other, that they don't notice time, other people, etc.

Wouldn't those suffering eternally be my neighbors too? Isn't it rather tragic that I could become so consumed by my own joy that I am unable to see the suffering of others. That would be tragic in this life and it happens often. Wouldn't it be tragic in the life to come as well?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

That's a question I have heard from atheists quite often, and I would be interested in an Orthodox response to that question.

Unfortunately, i am very pessimistic about this subject because in the eyes of man, God seems unkind to make a final destination of torment. A kind God would pick a completely different enternal code that would not include such torments. Yet again, i am looking though man's eyes and perspectives.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Wouldn't those suffering eternally be my neighbors too? Isn't it rather tragic that I could become so consumed by my own joy that I am unable to see the suffering of others. That would be tragic in this life and it happens often. Wouldn't it be tragic in the life to come as well?

no, because you will glorify God in all things, even in His giving the freedom to people who want nothing to do with His love.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Sorry was at work, not meaning to be unhelpful. Will reply more later.

 

[Not David]

Unfortunately, i am very pessimistic about this subject because in the eyes of man, God seems unkind to make a final destination of torment. A kind God would pick a completely different enternal code that would not include such torments. Yet again, i am looking though man's eyes and perspectives.

Well, if you read the posts, you will see hell in Orthodoxy is really different from a Protestant understanding.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Well, if you read the posts, you will see hell in Orthodoxy is really different from a Protestant understanding.

Yes i understand.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

How do you answer that question when atheists ask you?

I think there is a good response to the question, but my answer is not considered orthodox.

I suppose mine isnt either

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Well, if you read the posts, you will see hell in Orthodoxy is really different from a Protestant understanding.

I realized after the fact lol