Why God created some when he knew they would experience hell?

icxn

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(According to Orthodox beliefs) God created some when he knew they would experience hell because____________________?
Because had He not have (or had?) created them on account of their evil choices, it would have meant that their evil choices prevailed upon His goodness that wishes and creates everything good. This is St John's Damascene argument*.

Quote:
God in His goodness brought what exists into being out of nothing, and has foreknowledge of what will exist in the future. If, therefore, they were not to exist in the future, they would neither be evil in the future nor would they be foreknown. For knowledge is of what exists and foreknowledge is of what will surely exist in the future. For simple being comes first and then good or evil being. But if the very existence of those, who through the goodness of God are in the future to exist, were to be prevented by the fact that they were to become evil of their own choice, evil would have prevailed over the goodness of God. Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil.​

_______
* In his book Exposition of the Orthodox Faith.
 
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Anna Scott

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Because had He not have (or had?) created them on account of their evil choices, it would have meant that their evil choices prevailed upon His goodness that wishes and creates everything good. This is St John's Damascene argument*.

Quote:
God in His goodness brought what exists into being out of nothing, and has foreknowledge of what will exist in the future. If, therefore, they were not to exist in the future, they would neither be evil in the future nor would they be foreknown. For knowledge is of what exists and foreknowledge is of what will surely exist in the future. For simple being comes first and then good or evil being. But if the very existence of those, who through the goodness of God are in the future to exist, were to be prevented by the fact that they were to become evil of their own choice, evil would have prevailed over the goodness of God. Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil.​

_______
* In his book Exposition of the Orthodox Faith.

icxn,
Thank you for responding and providing a source. The problem is that this makes no sense to me. I'm sure I'm the problem. lol.

In the end, all will be made right. So, why couldn't that have been accomplished sooner rather than thousands of years of more and more people being born. God is God. He makes the rules. Why not set things right as soon as they went wrong with the sin of Adam and Eve?

As your source stated, "Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil."

If God is the creator of all things, did he not create evil also? Did he not create man with the potential to sin?
 
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Anna Scott

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. . . . . This is St John's Damascene argument*.

Quote:
. . . . .For simple being comes first and then good or evil being. But if the very existence of those, who through the goodness of God are in the future to exist, were to be prevented by the fact that they were to become evil of their own choice, evil would have prevailed over the goodness of God. . . . . .​

_______
* In his book Exposition of the Orthodox Faith.

Also, is it really possible for evil to prevail over the goodness of God, if God prevented the existence of those who "were to become evil of their own choice"?

Edited to add: Is it possible under any circumstance for evil to prevail over the goodness of God?
 
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Anna Scott

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links? no, what I gave you were books. the thing with St Xenia is her husband.

Thanks ArmyMatt,
That's a tall order for a thread. I can read books over time; but for the purposes of this discussion, do you have some quotes from these books?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thanks ArmyMatt,
That's a tall order for a thread. I can read books over time; but for the purposes of this discussion, do you have some quotes from these books?

sure. St Mark of Ephesus teaches that there will be many souls who will be tormented in hades after death, only to be saved on Judgment Day. so God allows for that because He knows what every soul needs for salvation.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Romans 2:12-16
12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts
will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.


So, those who do not possess the law, but do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves, would mean even non Christians could be saved on the day of judgement. Is that what you are saying?
That's really what the passage says. Some translations are a bit more direct than the one you quoted, but read the part in red carefully. They will be accused or excused ... in the judgement.

It's not a direct statement about Christianity, or non-Christians - at least not completely explicit. But it presents a principle of God's mercy, and it isn't too much of a stretch to understand that non-Christians are in the same category as those "not having the law".

If a person is inclined toward God, or wants to do good, God is at work in him even if he doesn't explicitly realize it or know the Gospel message. After all, creation itself testifies of God, and some come to believe through contemplation of creation.

It goes back to whether a person can "accept Christ" after death. That's sort of a Protestant view of salvation, so the question is a bit slanted. But a person can live their lives inclined toward God, with a varying level of understanding about the existence of God and/or the basic goodness of God/Truth/etc. ... and such a person when dying WILL meet God. If st that time they recognize in Christ what their soul always loved ... the good and pure ... then why should God reject them? The souls in Hades prior to Christ's Incarnation had the opportunity to look to Him for salvation after He was crucified. If God is no respecter of persons, why would He not give those after the Cross who never had a true opportunity the same chance as those before the Cross had?

I think that was part of your question?

It's hard for me to imagine anyone encountering the real Christ wanting to reject Him.

But perhaps there are people so evil, or full of hate, or whatever twists them away from God and love and truth and purity that they truly would despise any of that and WILL reject God. And God will allow them, though He loves them. The torment they experience will be of their own making though. Yes, they will hate God and be tormented by His very Presence. But only because they truly desired the utter opposite of God.

Still, none of this really answers the OP's question, as I noted in a previous post,

I've read through this thread. I still haven't actually seen a direct answer to the OP's question. If it's here, I apologize. Maybe I'm just not getting it (that is a real possibility.)

Also, please provide sources, including Holy Scripture to support the answer. That would really be helpful, to me anyway.

(According to Orthodox beliefs) God created some when he knew they would experience hell because____________________?


So why did God create such people? Maybe we can't fully answer that to anyone's satisfaction, because I think the truth is that God creates because He loves, and He gives freedom because He loves.

I think (and this is me, not the Church that I'm aware of) - that whatever might in any way lessen their torment, God would do/allow. I'm thinking of the Scriptures that speak of "outer darkness" where the condemned will be. Of course God is everywhere and they can't escape His presence, but perhaps it is somehow possible for them to retreat from - where those who are sharing communion with God are, perhaps, and so experience a lesser intensity somehow? I don't know.

Have you ever read CS Lewis' The Great Divorce? It's highly allegorical but it does sort of suggest God in His mercy allowing the best possible condition for those who hate Him, while giving them all freedom. I think that seems more in line with the character of God as I have come to understand Him.

I don't think we know the details of how or why ... but I DO believe in God's love and mercy, and trust that it will be reflected in however things turn out to be.
 
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ArmyMatt

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the torment is the torment of love. we see this all the time. Family Matters was a great example. throughout most of the series, Steve loved Laura, but Laura didn't love Steve. so his love for her tormented her (he was annoying, followed her around, etc). once the final season came, Laura started to love Steve. Steve didn't change, but Laura did. so the very same love from him which tormented her for so long, became paradise to her in the end.
 
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Anna Scott

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sure. St Mark of Ephesus teaches that there will be many souls who will be tormented in hades after death, only to be saved on Judgment Day. so God allows for that because He knows what every soul needs for salvation.

OK, ArmyMatt,
I found this link Feast of St. Mark of Ephesus January 19th (OS) / February 1st (NS)
It does give hope that souls may not be tormented in Hades forever, but it seems to contradict the idea that we choose Hell.

". . . . . But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which — even though they have repented over them — they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have aid, has not at all been handed down to us). . . . ."

Someone is doing the punishing and the cleansing by "purgatorial fire." So, this someone would be God, right?
 
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Anna Scott

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the torment is the torment of love. we see this all the time. Family Matters was a great example. throughout most of the series, Steve loved Laura, but Laura didn't love Steve. so his love for her tormented her (he was annoying, followed her around, etc). once the final season came, Laura started to love Steve. Steve didn't change, but Laura did. so the very same love from him which tormented her for so long, became paradise to her in the end.

Source for "torment of love"? Links would be helpful.
 
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~Anastasia~

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OK, ArmyMatt,
I found this link Feast of St. Mark of Ephesus January 19th (OS) / February 1st (NS)
It does give hope that souls may not be tormented in Hades forever, but it seems to contradict the idea that we choose Hell.

". . . . . But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which — even though they have repented over them — they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have aid, has not at all been handed down to us). . . . ."

Someone is doing the punishing and the cleansing by "purgatorial fire." So, this someone would be God, right?
NOT by means of purgatorial fire. This treatise was against purgatory as taught by the Latins, wasn't it?

So not a place, not a punishment by God. That doesn't mean residual sins won't torment us in some way though.
 
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Anna Scott

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That's really what the passage says. Some translations are a bit more direct than the one you quoted, but read the part in red carefully. They will be accused or excused ... in the judgement.

It's not a direct statement about Christianity, or non-Christians - at least not completely explicit. But it presents a principle of God's mercy, and it isn't too much of a stretch to understand that non-Christians are in the same category as those "not having the law".

If a person is inclined toward God, or wants to do good, God is at work in him even if he doesn't explicitly realize it or know the Gospel message. After all, creation itself testifies of God, and some come to believe through contemplation of creation.

It goes back to whether a person can "accept Christ" after death. That's sort of a Protestant view of salvation, so the question is a bit slanted. But a person can live their lives inclined toward God, with a varying level of understanding about the existence of God and/or the basic goodness of God/Truth/etc. ... and such a person when dying WILL meet God. If st that time they recognize in Christ what their soul always loved ... the good and pure ... then why should God reject them? The souls in Hades prior to Christ's Incarnation had the opportunity to look to Him for salvation after He was crucified. If God is no respecter of persons, why would He not give those after the Cross who never had a true opportunity the same chance as those before the Cross had?

I think that was part of your question?

It's hard for me to imagine anyone encountering the real Christ wanting to reject Him.

But perhaps there are people so evil, or full of hate, or whatever twists them away from God and love and truth and purity that they truly would despise any of that and WILL reject God. And God will allow them, though He loves them. The torment they experience will be of their own making though. Yes, they will hate God and be tormented by His very Presence. But only because they truly desired the utter opposite of God.




So why did God create such people? Maybe we can't fully answer that to anyone's satisfaction, because I think the truth is that God creates because He loves, and He gives freedom because He loves.

I think (and this is me, not the Church that I'm aware of) - that whatever might in any way lessen their torment, God would do/allow. I'm thinking of the Scriptures that speak of "outer darkness" where the condemned will be. Of course God is everywhere and they can't escape His presence, but perhaps it is somehow possible for them to retreat from - where those who are sharing communion with God are, perhaps, and so experience a lesser intensity somehow? I don't know.

Have you ever read CS Lewis' The Great Divorce? It's highly allegorical but it does sort of suggest God in His mercy allowing the best possible condition for those who hate Him, while giving them all freedom. I think that seems more in line with the character of God as I have come to understand Him.

I don't think we know the details of how or why ... but I DO believe in God's love and mercy, and trust that it will be reflected in however things turn out to be.

Anastasia,
Thank you. Also very hopeful. I think Orthodoxy is more hopeful, regarding the love of God and the fate of the soul, than many of the views in Protestantism.

So, is the OP's question unanswerable?
 
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Anna Scott

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NOT by means of purgatorial fire. This treatise was against purgatory as taught by the Latins, wasn't it?

So not a place, not a punishment by God. That doesn't mean residual sins won't torment us in some way though.

Anastasia,
I'm not really sure about the treatise. I'm having to search for sources named, but not linked. It would really be helpful if people would source their positions with a link.
 
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Anna Scott

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Because had He not have (or had?) created them on account of their evil choices, it would have meant that their evil choices prevailed upon His goodness that wishes and creates everything good. This is St John's Damascene argument*. . . . . . . .
_______
* In his book Exposition of the Orthodox Faith.

I still need answers to these questions about St John's Damascene argument:

As your source stated, "Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil."

If God is the creator of all things, did he not create evil also? Did he not create man with the potential to sin?

Also, is it really possible for evil to prevail over the goodness of God, if God prevented the existence of those who "were to become evil of their own choice"?

Is it possible under any circumstance for evil to prevail over the goodness of God?

In the end, all will be made right. So, why couldn't that have been accomplished sooner rather than thousands of years of more and more people being born. God is God. He makes the rules. Why not set things right as soon as they went wrong with the sin of Adam and Eve?
 
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ArmyMatt

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OK, ArmyMatt,
I found this link Feast of St. Mark of Ephesus January 19th (OS) / February 1st (NS)
It does give hope that souls may not be tormented in Hades forever, but it seems to contradict the idea that we choose Hell.

". . . . . But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which — even though they have repented over them — they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have aid, has not at all been handed down to us). . . . ."

Someone is doing the punishing and the cleansing by "purgatorial fire." So, this someone would be God, right?

the purging fire is God Himself. which means, since God doesn't change, the change would be in the departed soul.
 
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icxn

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I still need answers to these questions about St John's Damascene argument:

As your source stated, "Wherefore God makes all His works good, but each becomes of its own choice good or evil."

If God is the creator of all things, did he not create evil also? Did he not create man with the potential to sin?
God didn't create anything evil, as in sinful, and before you quote me the OT verse that seems to contradict this, let me say that the Church Fathers interpreted evil in that context as calamities that cause pain and suffering, none of which are sinful. Also, our potential to sin because of the gift of free will, doesn't make God responsible.
Also, is it really possible for evil to prevail over the goodness of God, if God prevented the existence of those who "were to become evil of their own choice"?

Is it possible under any circumstance for evil to prevail over the goodness of God?
Evidently no, which is why He creates people that end up commiting evil. Sounds perplexing, I know!
In the end, all will be made right. So, why couldn't that have been accomplished sooner rather than thousands of years of more and more people being born. God is God. He makes the rules. Why not set things right as soon as they went wrong with the sin of Adam and Eve?
Because the problem is not as simple as the question makes it to be. How many of us have ancestors that weren't exactly holy? How many Saints throughout the centuries had evil parents? If God were to eliminate the latter, He would have also eliminated His Saints. Also, how many Saints attribute their virtue to the testing of the evil ones? The long-suffering to those who tormented them, the martyrs to those who persecuted and killed them, etc. How are we to forgive our enemies if there are no enemies? Tares and wheat are planted together for a reason or rather many reasons that are beyond our grasp and we should trust God that human history as we know is the best possible scenario.
 
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I still haven't seen the meat of the questions answered - and I am also interested in the answer. Please direct me to an answer if I missed it.

But, why did the Most High God make people when He knew they would be separated from Him forever?

I, personally, don't want to know why we need Him, and how it shows us His character. We know that. I want to know why people think He would make entities knowing they would "fail" in the first place - fully understanding the consequences.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I still haven't seen the meat of the questions answered - and I am also interested in the answer. Please direct me to an answer if I missed it.

But, why did the Most High God make people when He knew they would be separated from Him forever?

I, personally, don't want to know why we need Him, and how it shows us His character. We know that. I want to know why people think He would make entities knowing they would "fail" in the first place - fully understanding the consequences.

again, because He loves them.
 
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Anna Scott

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God didn't create anything evil, as in sinful. . . . .
Because the problem is not as simple as the question makes it to be. How many of us have ancestors that weren't exactly holy? How many Saints throughout the centuries had evil parents? If God were to eliminate the latter, He would have also eliminated His Saints. Also, how many Saints attribute their virtue to the testing of the evil ones? The long-suffering to those who tormented them, the martyrs to those who persecuted and killed them, etc. How are we to forgive our enemies if there are no enemies? Tares and wheat are planted together for a reason or rather many reasons that are beyond our grasp and we should trust God that human history as we know is the best possible scenario.

You said, if God eliminates evil, He would also have eliminated His Saints. So, in essence, you're saying "evil" is necessary.

If there are no Saints without evil. "Evil" is a necessary "evil." So, how do you know God didn't create evil? If He didn't create evil, He didn't create all things. If God didn't create all things, then wouldn't that mean there is another creator at work?
 
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