Why Genesis Matters - Dr. Jason Lisle

[Hoghead1]

I don't quite agree, KWCrazy. Divinely inspirited as it may be, it does comes from a pre-scientific culture and therefore was not intended to be an accurate geophysical witness. Pitting the Bible against science distorts the purpose of both of them. Also, you are holding the view that Scripture has to be inerrant. OK, fine. Thing is, that is simply a human-produced, possibly fallible theory about how God and Scripture might interact. Like any theory, it needs tested out. Having done so, I submit that Scripture is not inerrant, given the contradictions alone. That doesn't mean we should throw it out ort that it is al a big fantast. It just means some events may not have happened the way Scripture describes them. The Bible isn't the one in the wrong here; what is wrong is the inerrancy theory of Scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

KWCrazy said: ↑
From what He taught, it is very clear that Jesus is a young earth creationist who believes that the Scriptures are the breathed word of God and accurate for teaching and reproof. Knowing that, all of man's INTERPRETATIONS of evidence cannot trump the teaching of the Lord. As the video points out there is nothing in the Scriptures that support long ages or evolution. Therefore, those man-made concepts are quite simply wrong.

Of course and pious, first century Jew is going to believe in Adam. You will respond, I am sure, that Jesus was God and therefore had perfect knowledge of the creation. However, Philippians 2 says that he 'emptied himself' when he took on the form of a man.

Is this where you then claim to be an atheist -- or you claim you don't follow the Christ of the Gospels -- only the Christ that you suppose is now in heaven denying whatever he said on earth about trust in the Bible and the literal creation week??

So you agree that Jesus was a YEC. Thank you.
I disagree, however, that you know more about the creation than the son of God.

Indeed - the Son of God while on earth - tells us to tell others what HE taught on earth - see Matt 28 and the great commission.

I personally view the teaching of evolution as heresy and false teaching. Teaching that the Scriptures are wrong and the doctrine of man is right is actually a pretty big sin.
Revelation 22:
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

We don't get to pick and choose which portions of God's word we wish to believe and which we wish to reject.

They are "Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men" when it comes to setting aside the WORD of God - in the case of the doctrine on origins.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't quite agree, KWCrazy. Divinely inspirited as it may be, it does comes from a pre-scientific culture and therefore was not intended to be an accurate geophysical witness.

So then..

No virgin birth.
No resurrection of Christ
No ascension into heaven.
No miracles in the Bible.
No world wide flood.
No creation week as stated in the actual Bible.

That kind of "religion" is the junk-science religion of blind-faith-evolutionism and is something that a lot of atheists on this board have affirmed.

Pitting the Bible against science distorts the purpose of both of them. Yet T.E.'s love to do that all day long.

I submit that Scripture is not inerrant, given the contradictions alone. That doesn't mean we should throw it out ort that it is al a big fantast. It just means some events may not have happened the way Scripture describes them.

Atheism could not agree more.

Atheism does not require "every word in the Bible" to be a lie. And this is true with other religious texts as well. Some truth in all of them - and atheism is still just fine.

 

[-57]

Really? Why did he say that, not he, but only the Father knew the time of the end?

Are we addressing Jesus' humanity or divinity..with respect to this question?

Keep in mind, the expression of Jesus' divinity can be seen elsewhere. For example:

God forgives sins.
Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, 
And I will not remember your sins.

Mark 2:5-7

5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

If Jesus forgives sin...then Jesus must be God.

 

[Hoghead1]

That's not a fair comparison, KW. The same could be sais of Scripture Who wrote Scripture? Fallible human males who were bound to the limits imposed on them by a pre-scientific culture. .

 

[KWCrazy]

That's not a fair comparison, KW. The same could be sais of Scripture Who wrote Scripture? Fallible human males who were bound to the limits imposed on them by a pre-scientific culture. .

1 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
It does not say that Scripture was written by ignorant, stupid people who didn't understand that ax heads really couldn't float or that you couldn't make living people out of dust. You are not smarter than they were. It is not out of ignorance that they saw Christ walking on water and calming the seas, but likely with the fear of seeing an actual miracle happening before their eyes. Your arrogance notwithstanding, you aren't the first to realize these things could not happen naturally.

 

[Hoghead1]

I would appreciate it, KWCrazy, if you would read more carefully what I said. My point is that the biblical writers lived in a pre-scientific culture and therefore could not be expected to produce an accurate geophysical account in Scripture. God did not intend Scripture to be a scientific witness. When it comes to cosmology and geophysics, yes, we definitely do know more today than the ancient Hebrews. You jumped the gun and went into the issue about miracles. That is not something immediately relevant to the discussion. Whether the miracles did or did not happen, the Bible was not intended to be an accurate geophysical witness to creation or the cosmos. That's the important point I am making.

 

[dougangel]

Anyone else watch this, I thought he made some hard to overlook points and agree with him.

I really take exception to this guy. Saying people who don't think that the purpose of the bible is to be scientific are of lesser faith than him.



Joshua 12:1

Now these are the kings of the land, which the children of Israel smote, and possessed their land on the other side Jordan toward the rising of the sun, from the river Arnon unto mount Hermon, and all the plain on the east:

Psalm 50:1

The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Malachi 1:11

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

The suns coming up. A house hold saying. That’s what it looks like to the person. But It’s not scientific

Isaiah 11:12

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Won’t get my science from that statement. The earths a ellipse sphere. But we know what they mean “”all the earth”” But did they at the time. Did they think it was a flat earth ???

Job 38:13

13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

The earth doesn’t have an end it's a sphere won’t get my science from there.

Jeremiah 16:19

19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

Won't get my science here

Does Isaiah 40:22 really say that Earth is a Round circle ?

The Hebrew word that is used in Isaiah 44:22 (חוּג, chug) does not at all imply a spherical earth. The root word only occurs in the Hebrew Bible once as a verb (Job 26:10). In nominal forms, the same root occurs four times, three as the noun חוּג (chug; Job 22:14, Prov 8:27, Isa 40:22), and once as the noun מְחוּגׇה (mechugah; Isa 44:13). This term refers to a "circle instrument," a device used to make a circle, what we call a compass.


Isaiah 44:13 refers to this "circle instrument."


Isa 44:13 The carpenter stretches a line, marks it out with a stylus, fashions it with planes, and marks it with a compass; he makes it in human form, with human beauty, to be set up in a shrine. [NIV]


The verbal form of the word basically means "to make a circle" or "to scribe a circle."


Job 26:10 He has described a circle on the face of the waters, at the boundary between light and darkness. [NRSV]


Most modern translators agree that this "scribing a circle" in relation to the world refers to the horizon of the earth.


NIV: He marks out the horizon on the face of the waters for a boundary between light and darkness.


NLT: He created the horizon when he separated the waters; he set the boundary between day and night.


GWT: He marks the horizon on the surface of the water at the boundary where light meets dark.


Ancient people were very good at observing the physical properties of the earth without necessarily understanding how all of those properties worked. The horizon of the earth is easily seen from any high vantage point or open area as an encompassing circle. This led ancient peoples to describe this "circle" or the horizon as the "edge" or "end" of the earth (Deut 13:7, 1 Sam 2:10, Job 28:24, Psa 48:10, etc.).


The poetic hymn of Proverbs 30:4 uses this "ends of the earth" language to say much the same thing that Isaiah 44:13 says by "circle of the earth" and that Job 26 expresses by saying "he scribed a circle on the face of the waters."


Prov 30:4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of the hand? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is the person's name? And what is the name of the person's child? Surely you know!


The other uses of the same Hebrew root reveal a similar meaning.


Job 22:14 Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.


Ancient people of 2,000 or 1,000 BC did not have modern scientific knowledge. Yet they developed perceptions of the physical world based on observations. It was certainly not scientific but practical, based on what they could observe simply by looking at the earth and sky.


People of the Ancient Near East, as well as ancient Hebrews and Israelites, conceptualized the world as a large, flat, circular disk anchored in water below (the deep, Prov 8:27, Gen 1:2, 49:25, etc.) by pillars or foundations (1 Sam 2:8, Prov 8:29, etc.). Between the earth and this deep was Sheol, the place of the dead. -2- The earth was covered by a "firmament," conceived as a large solid upside down bowl or "dome" (Job 22:14, 37:18), in which the stars were placed (Gen 1:14-20). Above the dome was also water, which was the source of rain.


Gen 1:7 So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.


The dome had "doors" and "windows" to let the waters above fall to the earth (Gen 7:11, Isa 24:18, Mal 3:10, etc.). God was described as ruling the world from his throne above the dome (Psa 33, Psa 113:4-6, Matt 5:34, etc.).


These references are not just isolated anomalies amidst an otherwise scientific grasp of the world. These conceptions are pervasive throughout the biblical narratives, not only in describing the physical world, but extended into metaphorical applications relating to other topics or even simply as ways to talk about the world and God. For example, creation hymns (Psa 33, 104, Hab 3, etc.) evoke these images as a form of praise. Or in the Babel story God must "come down" to see the puny work of humanity (Gen 11:5).


While there are many graphic depictions of ancient cosmology, we need to keep in mind that this was not a pictorial conception, but a functional and descriptive one. It is we in the modern world who tend to want visual imagery and reduce ideas to graphics and charts. Yet for ancient people this was simply a way of expressing what they saw about the operation of the physical world.


Also, we should not conclude that this way of talking about the physical world is what the Bible teaches as a reality, something in which we must believe in order to believe Scripture. Instead, this is the way ancient people talked about their experience of the world in the absence of any scientific knowledge about the processes at work in the world. Certainly we would describe the world today in much different terms. But then we live 3,000 years later in human history with much more knowledge about the physical world, and a different conceptual model and different vocabulary with which to describe the world.


We certainly affirm that Scripture is fully inspired by God (plenary inspiration; see Revelation and Inspiration of Scripture). Yet what is interesting is that even with inspiration, God allowed these ancient ways of looking at the world to stand without correction. In other words, God did not reveal modern scientific knowledge to the ancient Israelites, or correct their ancient views of the way the world works. He let them express marvelous truths about God in the language and culture in which they lived. That incarnational dimension of Scripture is crucial for us to understand if we are to hear adequately the important confessions about God and humanity that Scripture expresses.

http://www.crivoice.org/circle.html

this what Jesus said about the Law and the prophets.

Mathew 7:12

12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Treat people the way you want to be treated this is the total of the Law and the prophets.

It's a mind blowing statement. That is the sum of what we should take out of what went on in the past before the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe in a literal fall, and a literal Adam and Eve, who were miraculously designed by God, perhaps 200,000 years ago. But even if Genesis 2 was a myth it would still be normal for Paul to use it as he did, since a myth's purpose is to teach a moral lesson, so an inspired myth would be intended for the very sort of thing Paul used it for.

Not in real life. In real life Paul uses the Genesis account about Adam created first, and Eve deceived first - to argue for women being submissive to their husbands.

There is no such thing as "the easter bunny's wife is always submissive to him and this shows that human women should be submitted to their husbands" -- in the actual Bible. That sort of nonsense does not work for those sorts of commands.

In the same way in Exodus 20 we have "legal" code and the death penalty is applied for violation of it - and it appeals to the Genesis 1-2:3 "Fact" in Ex 20:11. There is NO "appeal to the easter bunny" in Legal code -- in the actual Bible.

And we all know it.

 

[dougangel]

Not in real life. In real life Paul uses the Genesis account about Adam created first, and Eve deceived first - to argue for women being submissive to their husbands.

There is no such thing as "the easter bunny's wife is always submissive to him and this shows that human women should be submitted to their husbands" -- in the actual Bible. That sort of nonsense does not work for those sorts of commands.

In the same way in Exodus 20 we have "legal" code and the death penalty is applied for violation of it - and it appeals to the Genesis 1-2:3 "Fact" in Ex 20:11. There is "easter bunny fact" in Legal code -- in the actual Bible.

And we all know it.

That's not right there are quite a few examples of non literal unscientific sayings and text in the bible.

God said the sun is coming up. This is unscientific as it the earths movement that is coming up.

Psalm 50:1
[ Psalm 50 ] [ A psalm of Asaph. ] The Mighty One, God, the Lord, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to where it sets.

From a non literal point of view this is not incorrect as it has become a household saying and when God designed universe he did do these things non literal sense.
But scientifically and in reality its wrong. Just how ancient bronze age man saw the universe.

The four corners of the earth.

Same thing this non literal. Even though there can be a non literal explanation for this. In reality there are not four corners of the earth.

There is a controversy about where this saying comes from. The flat earth or the 4 corners of the map.



Genesis 1 the lesser light.
this is scientifically wrong. The moon is not a source of light but in Genesis the moon is put with the sun as a sources of light.

Genesis 1
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night," and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years," 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so." 16 God made two great lights—the greater light" to govern" the day and the lesser light to govern" the night." He also made the stars." 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night,"> and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good." 19 And there was evening, and there was morning"

This is just a few. There is quite a few more.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe in a literal fall, and a literal Adam and Eve, who were miraculously designed by God, perhaps 200,000 years ago. But even if Genesis 2 was a myth it would still be normal for Paul to use it as he did, since a myth's purpose is to teach a moral lesson, so an inspired myth would be intended for the very sort of thing Paul used it for.

Not in real life. In real life Paul uses the Genesis account about Adam created first, and Eve deceived first - to argue for women being submissive to their husbands.

There is no such thing as "the easter bunny's wife is always submissive to him and this shows that human women should be submitted to their husbands" -- in the actual Bible. That sort of nonsense does not work for those sorts of commands.

In the same way in Exodus 20 we have "legal" code and the death penalty is applied for violation of it - and it appeals to the Genesis 1-2:3 "Fact" in Ex 20:11. There is no appeal to "easter bunny nonsensel" in Legal code as the reason/proof/basis for keeping the command -- in the actual Bible.

And we all know it.

That's not right there are quite a few examples of non literal unscientific sayings

bait and switch -- I did not say that there are no symbols. What I said is that in things like legal code - there is no such thing as a easter-bunny-myth being used as the basis for legal code... in the actual Bible.

I said

In the same way in Exodus 20 we have "legal" code and the death penalty is applied for violation of it - and it appeals to the Genesis 1-2:3 "Fact" in Ex 20:11. There is no appeal to "easter bunny nonsensel" in Legal code as the reason/proof/basis for keeping the command -- in the actual Bible.

And we all know it.

Details matter.

God said the sun is coming up. This is unscientific

Not true at all.

Even Einstein admits that motion can be described in terms of frame of reference.

Hence we still to this day have sun rise and sun set calendars - nothing "unscientific" about this - except in the extreme imagination of "some".

The four corners of the earth.

A great example of something that is NOT legal code - NOR legal code declaring that that man should not blaspheme God because the earth has a sharp corner on it.

Genesis 1 the lesser light.
this is scientifically wrong.

Also not true - frame of reference dictates both are source of light for the Earth - the fact that the source of light for the Sun is a fusion reaction and the source of light for the moon is -- light from the sun -- just more 'details'.

Nobody denies the sun as a light no matter how far back in time it is observed simply because 'they did not know about nuclear fusion so how can they say that'.

Please be serious.

 

[dougangel]

Malachi 1:11

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

http://www.christianforums.com/goto/post?id=70295391#post-70295391

God said the sun is coming up. This is unscientific
Not true at all.

Even Einstein admits that motion can be described in terms of frame of reference.

Hence we still to this day have sun rise and sun set calendars - nothing "unscientific" about this - except in the extreme imagination of "some".

Can only answer these points one at a time due to time restraints and effort. You might like to read my post #48 as it reinforces these things.

The problem with Malachi is that. It is saying, God said "that". Not someone on earth. You must admit God has a different frame of reference than someone on earth.
Scientifically It is the earth that is rising due to it's rotation on it's axis. The point is the bible isn't a science book and you should not be proving science with it.
This is my understanding of the topic.

Also, we should not conclude that this way of talking about the physical world is what the Bible teaches as a reality, something in which we must believe in order to believe Scripture. Instead, this is the way ancient people talked about their experience of the world in the absence of any scientific knowledge about the processes at work in the world. Certainly we would describe the world today in much different terms. But then we live 3,000 years later in human history with much more knowledge about the physical world, and a different conceptual model and different vocabulary with which to describe the world.

We certainly affirm that Scripture is fully inspired by God (plenary inspiration; ). Yet what is interesting is that even with inspiration, God allowed these ancient ways of looking at the world to stand without correction. In other words, God did not reveal modern scientific knowledge to the ancient Israelites, or correct their ancient views of the way the world works. He let them express marvelous truths about God in the language and culture in which they lived. That incarnational dimension of Scripture is crucial for us to understand if we are to hear adequately the important confessions about God and humanity that Scripture expresses.

 

[dougangel]

Not in real life. In real life Paul uses the Genesis account about Adam created first, and Eve deceived first - to argue for women being submissive to their husbands.

Paul is using this as a teaching authority. This doesn't prove whether it's a parable or a history or a mixture of both or not.
An example to prove the point.
Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Now if such expressions as these were used to describe the destruction that came upon Jerusalem and Judah in Old Testament times, surely these same symbols were fitting ones to describe the destruction that came upon that same city and country in 70 A. D. By Jesus’ use of these symbols, the disciples knew Jerusalem would be destroyed again. The tribulation that was to come upon that city and people would not be merely a time of passing trouble, but the condition of things immediately after the tribulation of those days would be utter destruction and desolation — as symbolized by the familiar Biblical expression: the sun, moon, and stars shall be darkened.

Looking further, we find these same expressions are used in the scriptures to symbolize destruction upon other countries as well. Concerning the destruction that came upon EGYPT, we read: “Thus saith the Lord God; I will also make the multitude of EGYPT to cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. He and his people . . . shall be brought to destroy the land . . . the day shall be DARKENED . . . a cloud shall cover her, and her daughters shall go into captivity” (Ez. 30:6-18). And concerning Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, we read: “And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the STARS thereof DARK; I will cover the SUN with a cloud, and the MOON shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make DARK over thee, and set DARKNESS upon thy land . . . I shall bring thy destruction . . . I shall make the land of Egypt desolate” (Ez. 32:2-15).

Thus the overthrow and destruction that came upon Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar — who carried out the judgment of God — is described with the figures of the sun, moon, and stars being darkened.

Likewise, we read of the utter destruction that God brought upon IDUMEA. “And all the hosts of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fall down . . . For my sword . . . shall come down upon Idumea . . . from generation to generation it shall lie waste” (Isaiah 34:4-10). And the land remains a desolation to this day! Again we notice the pictorial language used to portray a dark time — even an overthrow and destruction.

Then there is the prophecy about the fall of Babylon which was to come “as destruction from the Almighty”, even though heathen armies were the instruments he used. “He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the STARS of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the SUN shall be darkened in his going forth, and the MOON shall not cause her light to shine . . . Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them . . . and Babylon . . . shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited . . . but wild beasts of the desert shall lie there” (Isaiah 13:9, 10, 17-21).

That this prophecy was fulfilled is evident. The kingdom was given to the Medes (Daniel 5:28-31). It did become a desolation — as predicted — and the desolate condition of that land to this day is a mute testimony to the fulfillment. This desolation, even as we have seen in the other cases, is described in language that is highly figurative — sun darkened, moon not giving her light, and the stars darkened. In short, a very dark, dark time for Babylon was predicted — and so it was.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,
This not literal or scientific and not going to happen in reality to the universe. Stars don't really fall down and the heavens can't shake.
It's actually prophetic language which is a code for destruction coming on a nation.
Just Because Jesus references this doesn't make it a real life reality. It's a prophetic code for destruction and calamity on a nation.

So things have been referenced by Jesus and other NT authors that are not literal.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul is using this as a teaching authority. This doesn't prove whether it's a parable or a history or a mixture of both or not.
An example to prove the point.
Matthew 24:
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Now if such expressions as these were used to describe the destruction that came upon Jerusalem and Judah in Old Testament times, surely these same symbols were fitting ones to describe the destruction that came upon that same city and country in 70 A. D. By Jesus’ use of these symbols,

Tortured logic -- noted.

1. Matt 24:29 is about the end of the world - and vs 29 speaks of the great tribulation unlike any that ever had happened or ever would happen in all of time. Bend-wrenching it to 70 A.D. is nonsense. And we all know it.

hint: the question being answered is "3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


=================================

2. Paul's statement relies on the Genesis account being fact.

"11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man (husband), but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. (Genesis 2 fact)

14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. (Genesis 3 fact) 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

The tortured logic for bend-and-wrench the Bible that you propose in the 1 Timothy 2 example only works this way "no woman should be in submission to a man any more than it was even remotely true that Adam was first created and then Eve." - it appeals to the idea of a fully accepted joke/myth for claiming that woman should not be under any restrictions since all admit to this joke/myth as not being reality.

And yet self-conflicted self-contradictingly you argue as if Paul says "woman should be in submission to a man just as the easter bunny is subject to the Santa Claus" -- such tortured logic would have worked in utter nonsense fashion to negate his intent. And we all know it.

 

[BobRyan]

God said the sun is coming up. This is unscientific

Not true at all.

Even Einstein admits that motion can be described in terms of frame of reference.

Hence we still to this day have sun rise and sun set calendars - nothing "unscientific" about this - except in the extreme imagination of "some".

The four corners of the earth.

A great example of something that is NOT legal code - NOR legal code declaring that that man should not blaspheme God because the earth has a sharp corner on it.

Genesis 1 the lesser light.
this is scientifically wrong.

Also not true - frame of reference dictates both are source of light for the Earth - the fact that the source of light for the Sun is a fusion reaction and the source of light for the moon is -- light from the sun -- just more 'details'.

Nobody denies the sun as a light no matter how far back in time it is observed simply because 'they did not know about nuclear fusion so how can they say that'.

Please be serious.

Malachi 1:11

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

In that case it is "from east to west" - as all readers would know - even to this very day.

Again I must insist -- "please be serious".

The problem with Malachi is that. It is saying, God said "that". Not someone on earth. You must admit God has a different frame of reference than someone on earth.

You must admit that God can speak of the sun without having to first explain nuclear physics and fusion reactions. No Hebrew scholar argues that the people were confused about this point meaning "from east to west".

The point remains.

next.

Scientifically It is the earth that is rising due to it's rotation on it's axis.

Scientifically Einstein said it was scientifically accurate to describe motion in the context of frame of reference. When speaking to humans one must not assume that they have God's frame of reference - but one uses the frame of reference of the intended audience to explain facts.

Obviously.

Also, we should not conclude that this way of talking about the physical world is what the Bible teaches as a reality, something in which we must believe in order to believe Scripture.

You make not effort at all to prove that the intended audience did not know that this was a way of referring to "from east to west" - even today's readers can see it - and then you expect us to "just not notice" that elephant in your living room?

You are using rabbit trail examples that dead end almost instantly.

Again I say "please be serious".

Now back to the topic - the Genesis account.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

in this example a local event is used as a "type" to predict a much more literal - much larger future Messianic event. The same is true with local kings and destruction of local kingdoms in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 used to predict a much more literal much larger future end-time eschatological event.


Isaiah 8
3 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz; 4 for before the boy knows how to cry out ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria.”

Isaiah 9

6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.

 

[KWCrazy]

[QUOTE="dougangel, post: 70295391, member: 307457] God said the sun is coming up. This is unscientific as it the earths movement that is coming up. [/QUOTE]
And yet this morning you will have a sunrise and in the evening you will have a sun set. These terms are not just because it's what we see with the naked eye, but also because sunrise is much easier than saying "The first glimpse of the sun in the morning as determined by the rotation of the earth on its axis." The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. The Bible doesn't address the cosmology.

The four corners of the earth.

I actually heard that phrase used on the radio a couple of days ago. The four corners are: North, South, East and West. They are relative to the four directions you can go from any place on earth except the poles. Again, the Bible never states that the earth is flat. You do, however, find in Job "He hangs the earth on nothing." Now how did Job know the planet was in space?

Genesis 1 the lesser light.
this is scientifically wrong. The moon is not a source of light but in Genesis the moon is put with the sun as a sources of light.

I have a set of headlamps that don't give off light by your definition. They shine into reflectors which sculpt the beams into patters of illumination that are designed to not blind oncoming traffic. You'll note that the Bible didn't mention a photon generator, only a lesser light. Why lesser? For one, it is dependent on the light of the sun. Don't like it? Take it up with anyone who has ever used the term moonlight.

Now then, another question. Why are you using the arguments of atheists to discredit the Bible if you're a Christian? Don't you know that truth lies not in the rocks but in the Creator of the rocks? Do you not understand that the laws of this world govern only the things which keep this world functioning, and that those laws bow to the will of the Creator? If God decided to reverse the rotation of the earth He could do so without consequence. The Bible gives testimony to the nature of the Creator, not the governing rules of a temporary world that will soon be destroyed.

 

[dougangel]

Tortured logic -- noted.

1. Matt 24:29 is about the end of the world - and vs 29 speaks of the great tribulation unlike any that ever had happened or ever would happen in all of time. Bend-wrenching it to 70 A.D. is nonsense. And we all know it.

hint: the question being answered is "3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Ok well you have this mixed up and you don't seem to understand that it's a repeating prophecy. And you don't seem to understand that there are two major questions being asked.

Matthew 24New International Version (NIV)

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times

24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Jesus makes a statement. He's looking at Herod's temple and says “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
The disciples ask privately when will the destruction of the temple happen and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age. This is dealing with more than just the end of age.

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
This is talking about the church age. The gospel being preached to the whole world and then the end will come.

So now it goes back and starts at the temple being desolated and the Roman destruction of the temple and sacking of Jerusalem. Dealing with the first question.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Here Jesus seems to talking of Israel and Jews with words like the holy place
Judea, the Sabbath'
He is warning the disciples to get out of Jerusalem and Israel before the destruction by the Romans of it. Which did happen in 70 ad.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

The disciples know Old testament scripture. Jesus is telling them calamity and destruction is going to come on Israel.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The end comes again

 

[dougangel]

And yet this morning you will have a sunrise and in the evening you will have a sun set. These terms are not just because it's what we see with the naked eye, but also because sunrise is much easier than saying "The first glimpse of the sun in the morning as determined by the rotation of the earth on its axis." The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. The Bible doesn't address the cosmology

You could call it earth rise and earth set.
The reality and science is that earth is moving faster against the sun. Not the sun faster than the earth. The point is even though sunrise and sunset is a non literate household saying. It's not science and you can't use it to prove science.

I actually heard that phrase used on the radio a couple of days ago. The four corners are: North, South, East and West. They are relative to the four directions you can go from any place on earth except the poles. Again, the Bible never states that the earth is flat. You do, however, find in Job "He hangs the earth on nothing." Now how did Job know the planet was in space?

Well some people think four corners of the earth and the ends of the earth are flat earth sayings but as i said in my previous post this is argued. Maps were finite and did have a end so on maps before the world was known to be a sphere. There would have been 4 corners and the end of earth on the maps of the world.

"He hangs the earth on nothing."

Umm. This really isn't that scientific either. The earth is moving at 108000 km/hour around the sun. Held in it's moving orbit by the suns gravitational pull to it. He isn't technically hanging the earth on nothing.

Science has come to the consensus that space is dark matter and it does have properties. It is not nothing.

I wouldn't get my science from Job and Ecclesiastes.
"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

The Earth has pillars?

"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"

Genesis 1 the lesser light.
this is scientifically wrong. The moon is not a source of light but in Genesis the moon is put with the sun as a sources of light.

I have a set of headlamps that don't give off light by your definition. They shine into reflectors which sculpt the beams into patters of illumination that are designed to not blind oncoming traffic. You'll note that the Bible didn't mention a photon generator, only a lesser light. Why lesser? For one, it is dependent on the light of the sun. Don't like it? Take it up with anyone who has ever used the term moonlight.

Is the dark side of the moon a light ?
Would you or advise someone to put the lesser light in a science exam ?

Got to go. I will answer your last question later. although I do think it's obvious why I take the position that I do.

 

[KWCrazy]

You could call it earth rise and earth set.

The earth neither rises nor sets.

The point is even though sunrise and sunset is a non literate household saying. It's not science and you can't use it to prove science.

It may come as some surprise to you that saying "the evening and the morning were the first day" had nothing to do with teaching science.
Science is the study of the physical world around us. The Bible deals with the greater picture; the eternal connection between God and man.

Well some people think four corners of the earth and the ends of the earth are flat earth sayings but as i said in my previous post this is argued.

Atheists use this to try to discredit the Bible, which, by the way, never claims the earth is flat.

Umm. This really isn't that scientific either.

In an era where most believed that the earth was a fixed, immobile plane, the concept of it hanging in space with no visible support was quite radical and doubtless not understood. That said, the Bible is not a science book.

Science has come to the consensus that space is dark matter and it does have properties. It is not nothing.

It's a giant dark nothingness that does have some physical properties. Nothing is not the absence of anything. That would be called a vacuum.

"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (From the NIV Bible, Ecclesiastes 1:5)"

Pretty accurate description taken from any place on the earth.

The Earth has pillars?
"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (From the NIV Bible, Job 9:6)"

The earth has its foundations on which it is laid, and its pillars by which it is supported; but these are no other than the power and providence of God; otherwise the earth is hung upon nothing, in the open circumambient air: and that God can and does do this may well be thought, and to do all the above things in providence and grace, related in the preceding verses; in the support, and for the proof of which, this is observed. Figuratively, the pillars of the earth may design the princes of the world, the supreme rulers of it, and civil magistrates, who are sometimes called cornerstones, and the shields of the earth (Zech. 10:4, Ps 47:9) and so pillars, because they are the means of cementing, supporting, and protecting the people of the earth, and of preserving their peace and property. Likewise good men may be meant in a figurative sense, who, as they are the salt of the earth, are the pillars of it, for whose sake it was made, and is supported, and continued in being; the church is the pillar and ground of truth; and every good man is a pillar in the house of God, and especially ministers of the Gospel (see Rev. 3:12, 1Tim. 3:15, Gal 2:9, Pr 9:1). Commentary from John Gill, 1766.

It is clear that, in context, the reference is to the noble ones, princes, not the physical Earth. Immediately before, the context is people, and immediately after the context is also about people. It is quite clear that this is the meaning, as Gill points out (Ryrie’s Study Bible notes also say the same thing). source

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:4)"

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? - The first appeal is to the creation. The question here, "Where wast thou?" implies that Job was not present. He had not then an existence. He could not, therefore, have aided God, or counselled him, or understood what he was doing. How presumptuous, therefore, it was in one so short-lived to sit in judgment on the doings of him who had formed the world! How little could he expect to be able to know of him! The expression, "laid the foundations of the earth," is taken from building an edifice. The foundations are first laid, and the super-structure is then reared. It is a poetic image, and is not designed to give any intimation about the actual process by which the earth was made, or the manner in which it is sustained.

If thou hast understanding - Margin, as in Hebrew "if thou knowest." That is, "Declare how it was done. Explain the manner in which the earth was formed and fixed in its place, and by which the beautiful world grew up under the hand of God." If Job could not do this, what presumption was it to speak as he had done of the divine administration! From Barnes Notes on the Bible. source

Is the dark side of the moon a light ?

Is it mentioned in the Bible? No.

Would you or advise someone to put the lesser light in a science exam ?

If your god is science your soul is lost, because like this world its properties will be destroyed. If your god is the Lord, then you understand that His will reigns supreme over the physical laws which govern the word He created.

although I do think it's obvious why I take the position that I do.

Not obvious to me at all.
You're a Christian putting forward the exact same arguments against the Bible that we see from atheists.
As you can see from the commentaries I posted, these questions have been put forward from scoffers and unbelievers for generations. Why do you, a Christian, put forward that same ignorance and lack of understanding? Have you asked any of these questions of your pastor? What was his response?
The Bible is the word of God. Many of the things withing its pages defy the laws of nature. In fact, there are 333 recorded miracles, all of which defy natural law. The Bible doesn't deal with science. It deals with the ultimate truth of the universe.