Why do you think people find it so hard to walk away from the RCC?

[Jacob069190]

There are plenty of Churches that teach the harsh true about sin and punishment which is something i agree with the Catholic church on. If you want a feel good happy time every sunday morning and don't like to think about how our God is to be feared and you can't just do whatever you want and still get to heaven then you aren't a christian. However i believe the biggest reason is because the catholic church is the largest and one of the oldest denominations around.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Catholicism is a religion. Of course I have faith in Christ. That's unwavering. But the CC is an institution, it claims to be Christ's True Church, anyone who departs from it to another is considered in a risky state of spiritual affairs, and the CC teaches that religion as far as the organization of the Church on earth, is absolutely necessary. You're oversimplifying things a lot.

Catholicism is both a religion and an institution.

It's a religion in the sense that it's where people respond to the faith(God's revelation) they've received in order to grow closer to God.

It's also an institution for as any thing on this earth, requires administration and principles which it teaches by.

The principles of the Catholic Church which are her dogmas, are Christ centered. If you have doubt about it you know little about them.


The point in all of this however, is our relationship with Jesus Christ, and whether we are following His will, or our own agenda.

If Christ calls you to the Catholic Church, this is where you should be.

He he calls you elsewhere, this is also where you should be.

Jesus feeds us where he knows we will be opened to him.

For me, it's through the Catholic Church. For others, it's somewhere else.

I don't concern myself where Christ leads others, only where he wants me.

Jim

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Honestly aside from NFP, Catholicism is a super easy religion if you ask me. Orthodoxy, wow, now THERE is a tough faith. You have to fast 60% of the year, you have to fast every Sunday morning from the time you wake up until the Eucharist, you stand for two hours during Divine Liturgy, there are extensive thanksgiving prayers required to be prayed after the liturgy is over if you took communion, there is no anonymous confession, and holy week is way more intense. Overall there is more of everything and everything is harder. When I look back at Catholicism, it's not half as tough. NFP and that stuff is incredibly hard, but other than that, piece of cake.

I think Jim's words were very wise indeed. Catholicism can be what you make of it. I don't mean that in a liberal sense, but I do mean that the yoke is not as heavy as many think it is.

 

[MKJ]

I'm not saying they equate in every way. My point is trusting in God, reading Scripture & fellowship. Following Christ & producing good fruit. A person does not need to be Catholic to do this.

A protestant leaving Church for a time or leaving for another does not compare to Catholics leaving for TLM or whatever. You'll hear everytime it is going where one feels spiritually fed & growing spiritually.

They do not see it as leaving Christ & somehow that particular Church hinges on their salvation. They trust Christ for their salvation.

Who saves? Christ or the Church? The Church is an aid to our salvation & supposed to be a light to a dark world.

It seems Catholics check off lists for their salvation of do's & don't to get their salvation points in because they worry so much about the Church being the true Church. In between time they worry about screwing up & getting to confession before they die & burn in Hell. They pour over documents & theology usually to the exclusion of Christ & Scripture.

There is joy in the Catholic faith. But I wonder why some feel shackled by it to the point of being afraid to leave it if they do not believe what She teaches. Even the Church acknowledges that people can leave out of ignorance which they are not responsible for.

Or they just try to change it from the inside regardless of what the Church teaches.

Faith is hard no matter where you sit. But Faith is also supposed to be a comfort. A lot of Catholics are miserable & seem to find no comfort in the faith. Unlike protestants which we will see in heaven as well.


Protestants seem to possess a peace & freedom in their faith in Christ that Catholics sorely lack.

So where does this fear stem from? Is it of God? Does God mean for us to live our faith miserably?

I don't think so.

No, I don't think God means us to live our faith miserably. I don't experience that kind of guilt problem myself - although I have a sometimes acute sense of the total overhaul needed on my soul, I never have a feeling like God is out to get me, which seems to be what you are describing. But although my dad's family is Catholic and I had some exposure there, I grew up in the Lutheran Church. I know plenty of Catholics who don't have that experience either, but it does seem to be fairly common there, wheras I don't know if I have ever really encounterd it in the Anglican Church.

I am not sure though, thinking about it more, that it is totally a Catholic/Protestant divide. I have seen the same thing among some Calvinists. And I don't see it among the Orthodox. I don't know if that might be helpful in pinpointing the distinction or not.

 

[Memento Mori]

(Sigh.) I was working on a substantial post when I timed out. I was responding to something Michie said about Protestants seeming to possess more peace about their faith. The gist of it was that a Protestant's peace comes from his belief in assurance of salvation. Compare this to St. Teresa of Avila who was terribly afraid of hell and received visions of her own potential damnation. Teresa, as any reasonable believer-in-eternity would, dreaded the loss of her soul, and yet she possessed a supernatural peace.

My point is that fear of hell and trembling for our souls are not bad things (they are even urged on us by Jesus and by His saints) as long as they don't stem from diseases of the mind. I wouldn't worry about the peace that Protestants seem to possess, because the psychological peace that comes from the absence of an uncomfortable idea is only valuable to the degree that the uncomfortable idea is false. In this case, the uncomfortable idea (that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling) is resoundingly and incontrovertibly true. The comfortable idea of eternal security is of no value to us because we know that potential to turn away from heaven is really, really real.

I often hear that Catholicism is too fear-based. I don't know. Others may have a kind of irrational or unhelpful fear, but I have sincerely prayed for more fear. Too often I find myself complacent and presume that I will die in God's friendship. If I loved Him more, I would fear losing Him more. I know I should dread hell with every fiber of my being. That is not an unhealthy desire. Rather it's the counsel of the saints. I was just listening to a sermon by St. Alphonsus de Liguori "On the Eternity of Hell" in which he urged the soul to think often of eternity and his final end, and to dread the loss of that end. We must do everything in our power to avoid mortal sin. "When eternal happiness is at stake, no security is too great."

 

[underheaven]

There are plenty of Churches that teach the harsh true about sin and punishment which is something i agree with the Catholic church on. If you want a feel good happy time every sunday morning and don't like to think about how our God is to be feared and you can't just do whatever you want and still get to heaven then you aren't a christian. However I believe the biggest reason is because the catholic church is the largest and one of the oldest denominations around.

I am not afraid of God. Fear drives out love,and love drives out fear.
What I fear ,and you too if you really think about it ,is not God,who IS LOVE,and He sent his only son
to prove that to us ; no, what you fear, is yourself.
The distance between your lack of love and faith in Him ,is what makes you afraid. Deep down inside,
you have to face the problems which keep you from knowing this loving God. Only when you are ready
to accept the Love that Christ offers,will you be saved from this false idea .

What in fact you and many do ,is to mix up the Heart's purpose ,which is love ,and sacrifice for yours
and others good,and the Intellect's purpose which is to examine evidence,which informs the heart.
What you see when you are hurt ,ill,lost ,war etc .and blame it on God,
is in fact the consequence of mixing up the roles of the heart and intellect. What happens when you
stop loving your 'neighbour',honouring your parents,ignoring God is that you suffer the consequences
of being seperated from Him,and his light and love. You then apply false Logic[intellect] to your situation ,
and say God is angry with me ,you etc. But that is not true.
God has set up His Creation to work according to a preset of laws,like this computer is set to laws.
We are part of this interactive Living Created World,and when we break those laws an automatic
crisis situation ensues for the individual,and sometimes for the society.This happens whether you
believe or not,it is automatic,and punishment ensued,automatically.

However in order to be really just, God set up a way for those who believe in HIM,and work with
him ,not against Him to be saved from the negative consequences of this 'automatic system' ;
He sent Jesus.
There were always those who loved Him,and had a relationship with Him ,as we know in the bible,
but many were condemned automatically to hell. No one is condemned to hell who follow Jesus.
He bypasses the default position ;He is the Way ,and not to be feared but loved.

 

[underheaven]

You (and I, and every person) should try to focus more on what and who Od is, and less on what we percieve.

Whether God seems kind or mean or arbitrary or random or structure tired or inconsistent to our finite pea-brains matters not. We have been given the Truth, that He is all wise, all-knowing, all-loving, all-merciful and all-just. That we don't understand is our shortcoming, not His.


(not saying that you were stating otherwise, just saying...)

Well ! Who would have believed it ? ; out of the pen of ...... ! ! ; comes great wisdom.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Honestly aside from NFP, Catholicism is a super easy religion if you ask me. Orthodoxy, wow, now THERE is a tough faith. You have to fast 60% of the year, you have to fast every Sunday morning from the time you wake up until the Eucharist, you stand for two hours during Divine Liturgy, there are extensive thanksgiving prayers required to be prayed after the liturgy is over if you took communion, there is no anonymous confession, and holy week is way more intense. Overall there is more of everything and everything is harder. When I look back at Catholicism, it's not half as tough. NFP and that stuff is incredibly hard, but other than that, piece of cake.

There is nothing in Catholicism that forbids you from fasting your own way, there is nothing that says you CAN NOT have a face to face with a priest; there's nothing that says you can not walk into a rectory and ask for a priest to talk with. Have you been to some Churches during Holy Week? Moving from one Station of the Cross to the other on your knees.

If you still are dismayed, join the Franciscans or Dominicans. Spend some time with them. There are multiple reports of people who tried them instead of being sent to prison or any detention center, only to have said person go willingly to prison or a detention center.

 

[QuantaCura]

Honestly aside from NFP, Catholicism is a super easy religion if you ask me. Orthodoxy, wow, now THERE is a tough faith. You have to fast 60% of the year, you have to fast every Sunday morning from the time you wake up until the Eucharist, you stand for two hours during Divine Liturgy, there are extensive thanksgiving prayers required to be prayed after the liturgy is over if you took communion, there is no anonymous confession, and holy week is way more intense.

When it comes to fasts and whatnot, I've been told by Orthodox people that they don't bind under pain of sin--ie if you can't do them, it's ok. In other words, in the East they set the ideal as a goal, but its ok if you fall short. The Western tradition marks the bare minimum one can do without sinning, but exhorts one to do more if able. In both cases, the "difficulty" is what one makes of it.

 

[Jacob069190]

When it comes to fasts and whatnot, I've been told by Orthodox people that they don't bind under pain of sin--ie if you can't do them, it's ok. In other words, in the East they set the ideal as a goal, but its ok if you fall short. The Western tradition marks the bare minimum one can do without sinning, but exhorts one to do more if able. In both cases, the "difficulty" is what one makes of it.

The Ethiopian church has over 250 fasting days a year and most adults keep them.

 

[underheaven]

(Sigh.) I was working on a substantial post when I timed out. I was responding to something Michie said about Protestants seeming to possess more peace about their faith. The gist of it was that a Protestant's peace comes from his belief in assurance of salvation. Compare this to St. Teresa of Avila who was terribly afraid of hell and received visions of her own potential damnation. Teresa, as any reasonable believer-in-eternity would, dreaded the loss of her soul, and yet she possessed a supernatural peace.

My point is that fear of hell and trembling for our souls are not bad things (they are even urged on us by Jesus and by His saints) as long as they don't stem from diseases of the mind. I wouldn't worry about the peace that Protestants seem to possess, because the psychological peace that comes from the absence of an uncomfortable idea is only valuable to the degree that the uncomfortable idea is false. In this case, the uncomfortable idea (that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling) is resoundingly and incontrovertibly true. The comfortable idea of eternal security is of no value to us because we know that potential to turn away from heaven is really, really real.

I often hear that Catholicism is too fear-based. I don't know. Others may have a kind of irrational or unhelpful fear, but I have sincerely prayed for more fear. Too often I find myself complacent and presume that I will die in God's friendship. If I loved Him more, I would fear losing Him more. I know I should dread hell with every fiber of my being. That is not an unhealthy desire. Rather it's the counsel of the saints. I was just listening to a sermon by St. Alphonsus de Liguori "On the Eternity of Hell" in which he urged the soul to think often of eternity and his final end, and to dread the loss of that end. We must do everything in our power to avoid mortal sin. "When eternal happiness is at stake, no security is too great."

I think your analysis is, in part wrong .I think Catholics are depressed because they are not engaged in a personal relationship with God ,but one dictated by a distant power. It is this personal relationship ,which brings joy. Also many are not blase about their salvation.

 

[christseeker45]

I think your analysis is, in part wrong .I think Catholics are depressed because they are not engaged in a personal relationship with God ,but one dictated by a distant power. It is this personal relationship ,which brings joy. Also many are not blase about their salvation.

Very true.

 

[MKJ]

When it comes to fasts and whatnot, I've been told by Orthodox people that they don't bind under pain of sin--ie if you can't do them, it's ok. In other words, in the East they set the ideal as a goal, but its ok if you fall short. The Western tradition marks the bare minimum one can do without sinning, but exhorts one to do more if able. In both cases, the "difficulty" is what one makes of it.

I think there is some truth to this, but I tend to think that putting out the maximum and allowing individuals to privately or with their priest work out what is appropriate for them, is more successful than the Western tendency to always give the minimum required. (And this is something common, I think, to Catholicism and Protestantism.)

That seems to lead to an attitude which says things like "do I really need to get baptized/take the Eucharist/join a congregation/whatever to be saved?" "Do we really need a liturgy or sermon that is theologically substantial in order to benefit from the Eucharist?" "Isn't this Mass valid even if the music is pretty bad light rock with banal lyrics?". And then "the priest./pastor/leader can't tell me I should be doing more than what is required for my spiritual development, I just need the minimum required to be saved/not in mortal sin/whatever."

It seems to me that there is a link between setting out the minimum as what people should do and people focusing on that as their goal.

 

[Assisi]

I think there is some truth to this, but I tend to think that putting out the maximum and allowing individuals to privately or with their priest work out what is appropriate for them, is more successful than the Western tendency to always give the minimum required. (And this is something common, I think, to Catholicism and Protestantism.)

That seems to lead to an attitude which says things like "do I really need to get baptized/take the Eucharist/join a congregation/whatever to be saved?" "Do we really need a liturgy or sermon that is theologically substantial in order to benefit from the Eucharist?" "Isn't this Mass valid even if the music is pretty bad light rock with banal lyrics?". And then "the priest./pastor/leader can't tell me I should be doing more than what is required for my spiritual development, I just need the minimum required to be saved/not in mortal sin/whatever."

It seems to me that there is a link between setting out the minimum as what people should do and people focusing on that as their goal.

The reverse would be scrupulosity, where people are so worried about not living up to a standard that it interferes in their relationship with God, or alternatively deciding for themselves that any number of 'rules' don't apply too them.

In both Catholic and Orthodox cases the reality is that people are working out (hopefully with guidance) what is best for their spiritual growth. I think the Catholic way works better for me I think I would feel pretty guilty in an unhealthy way if I were Orthodox.

 

[Chany]

Most people are culture Catholics. You do it because its what you always done. It's attachment, not some much in a sentimental way, but like you'd be leaving a part of yourself behind.

 

[Jacob069190]

I am not afraid of God. Fear drives out love,and love drives out fear.
What I fear ,and you too if you really think about it ,is not God,who IS LOVE,and He sent his only son
to prove that to us ; no, what you fear, is yourself.
The distance between your lack of love and faith in Him ,is what makes you afraid. Deep down inside,
you have to face the problems which keep you from knowing this loving God. Only when you are ready
to accept the Love that Christ offers,will you be saved from this false idea .

What in fact you and many do ,is to mix up the Heart's purpose ,which is love ,and sacrifice for yours
and others good,and the Intellect's purpose which is to examine evidence,which informs the heart.
What you see when you are hurt ,ill,lost ,war etc .and blame it on God,
is in fact the consequence of mixing up the roles of the heart and intellect. What happens when you
stop loving your 'neighbour',honouring your parents,ignoring God is that you suffer the consequences
of being seperated from Him,and his light and love. You then apply false Logic[intellect] to your situation ,
and say God is angry with me ,you etc. But that is not true.
God has set up His Creation to work according to a preset of laws,like this computer is set to laws.
We are part of this interactive Living Created World,and when we break those laws an automatic
crisis situation ensues for the individual,and sometimes for the society.This happens whether you
believe or not,it is automatic,and punishment ensued,automatically.

However in order to be really just, God set up a way for those who believe in HIM,and work with
him ,not against Him to be saved from the negative consequences of this 'automatic system' ;
He sent Jesus.
There were always those who loved Him,and had a relationship with Him ,as we know in the bible,
but many were condemned automatically to hell. No one is condemned to hell who follow Jesus.
He bypasses the default position ;He is the Way ,and not to be feared but loved.

I wasn't talking about Jesus I was talking about the Father.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 10:28 - "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Isaiah 66:3b-4a - "They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations, so I also will choose harsh treatment for them and will bring upon them what they dread." This tells us that those who delight in abominations are not fearing God but practicing sin and fearing things other than God.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 19:23 - "The fear of the Lord leads to life; then one rests content, untouched by trouble."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 31:19 - "How great is your goodness which you have stored up for those who fear you, which you bestow in the sight of men on those who take refuge in you."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Proverbs 14:26-27 - "He who fears the Lord has a secure fortress, and for his children it will be a refuge. {27} The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death." I can be secure in the Lord if I fear Him and continue to do what is right.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Luke 12:4–5 - "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."[/FONT]

 

[JBMM]

Because of hell.

True. Also because the Roman Catholic church was the first true Church and the only true church.

 

[MKJ]

The reverse would be scrupulosity, where people are so worried about not living up to a standard that it interferes in their relationship with God, or alternatively deciding for themselves that any number of 'rules' don't apply too them.

In both Catholic and Orthodox cases the reality is that people are working out (hopefully with guidance) what is best for their spiritual growth. I think the Catholic way works better for me I think I would feel pretty guilty in an unhealthy way if I were Orthodox.

I can see why you might think this would make you feel guilty, but I haven't seen it much among the Orthodox in practice. I think it is because the "rules" are not presented as a binary choice, but as a continuous path to spiritual perfection. Trying to move too far along that path too quickly is not only not effective and seen as immature, it can be spiritually dangerous - a form of hubris that can lead to serious dangers. With that kind of teaching, people don't tend to feel guilt about taking the approach mandated by their own spiritual state and their priest or bishop's advice - and they do actually ask their advice and follow it.

 

[Ave Maria]

Perhaps its because of the Eucharist. I mean, personally, every time I have considered leaving the Church, I always stay Catholic because of the Eucharist. It is the one thing that non-Catholics other than the Orthodox do not have.

 

[underheaven]

I can see why you might think this would make you feel guilty, but I haven't seen it much among the Orthodox in practice. I think it is because the "rules" are not presented as a binary choice, but as a continuous path to spiritual perfection. Trying to move too far along that path too quickly is not only not effective and seen as immature, it can be spiritually dangerous - a form of hubris that can lead to serious dangers. With that kind of teaching, people don't tend to feel guilt about taking the approach mandated by their own spiritual state and their priest or bishop's advice - and they do actually ask their advice and follow it.

You have hit on something which in my opinion is the fundamental error of the RCC. This black and
white rule making 'forces' spiritual progress,which in reality creates terrible hypocrisy,so that people
are, including the priest hood pretending to be 'perfect and all knowing',when in fact as you say it is
a process,and any good teacher,takes their pupil 'along' both intellectually as well as emotionally.

Pretending to be perfect is very tiring ,creates hypocrisy,and seperates. It means that the outer
self ,becomes more important,than the inner hidden one. So we have people who willl not have a
relationship outside of marriage [in the church] ,but will look secretly at inappropriate contentography. What I ask
is the more damaging for a soul. I know which one is ,without doubt. And So on.
We create lies within lies Another would be the public burial of someone like Pinochet .In fact
where does it end ?
''When the inner is like the outer ,and the outer like the inner '' in the RCC