Why do you believe your religion is real?

andreha

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This seems like the most obvious and important question for anyone who chooses to believe in a religion, yet it's rarely a focus of discussion, and many believers haven't given it much thought:


Why, of all the religions in the world, do you believe that yours is the "real" one? Why do you believe its extraordinary claims are true, and not a work of fiction, as so many others clearly must be?


It would make no sense to respond with, "I know it's true because the bible says it is" - that would be circular reasoning. Many other supposed holy books make mutually exclusive claims. They can't all be right.

Sometimes believers justify their faith on the basis of "gut feelings." While those may be convincing to the individual who experiences them, these clearly don't constitute evidence in any broader sense: People have gut feelings that turn out to be wrong all the time, like the perpetual gambler who is always convinced that he's about to win on his next big bet, even though he usually turns out to be wrong. And, again, believers from many different religions report "gut feelings" that their religion is the right one. Either most or all of them must be wrong.

Another response that sometimes comes up is prophecy - a claim that the bible contained accurate predictions about the future, or knowledge of nature, which no ordinary mortal could possibly have known. (This context refers to those predictions which could be later verified, of course). This would be a very sensible and convincing response, but the prophecies contained in the bible aren't very extensive and don't have an excellent record of coming true. In this category, the Christian bible doesn't necessarily out-perform other holy books, like the qu'ran, or other historical forecasters. It's a good premise, but if it leads to concluding, "if that's my basis, I guess I should worship Nostradamus instead," then it doesn't really support the religion.


There's another answer that could be given: "I believe in my religion because my mom/dad did, or I was born into a part of the world where it's popular and I'm following the crowd, or because I find it comforting or convenient to do so, even if there's no logical reason behind it." That might be incredibly honest, and I think most anyone could appreciate that much, so long as the believer didn't move from that into the idea that such beliefs should dictate public policy or be forced upon others.


So, why do you believe your religion is real, and all the others false? What is the reasoning behind the most important belief in your life?

I have believed in Jesus Christ as my Saviour, since age 5. Not because of my parents, mind you. They didn't give me any religious instruction of any kind at that age. See, I suffered from demonic oppression, and this made me lose the will to live. It's rather harsh at such an age to suffer from depression. So, after starting school, on the first day, we were told about Jesus - who He is, and so on. So, by myself, I decided to ask Him for Help. After doing so, I was freed from the suffering, and now, 35 years later, I am still free.

My life is filled with answered prayers and miraculous testimonies. I would have been dead numerous times, were it not for divine intervention. I remember once, when God took physical control of me, to stop me from dying in a car accident. I only came to my senses when my car actually stopped.

I could write tens of thousands of words...
 
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GaryS

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If possible, I would look you in the eyes and honestly say that I entrust my eternal soul to Jesus, and that I believe that the original autagraphs of the Old and New Testament Scriptures were without error.

I don't think you really understand my faith very well... I do not deny reality, as you see, I admit my error when it is presented to me. My faith is not in how well I understand the Bible, my faith is in the One who authored the Bible through various men over the centuries. The Bible is a tool God has given us to better understand Him and how He has interacted with man throughout history. It's primary purpose is to reveal some of Himself to us, and to direct us into a relationship with Him. The fact that myself and various Bible expositors are in error regarding the modern state of Tyre does not affect my faith in God... The Bible is crystal clear on how wrong it is to put ones trust in men. Again, I thank you for correcting my understanding of this text, as I do not want to continue teaching something that is not true. I will have to study the prophecy again after reading up as best I can on the history of Tyre, and see if I can understand what the Lord, through Ezekiel, was revealing.

Thank you for expounding on your beliefs, and for having the courage to seriously consider evidence which may contradict them. Sometimes people just close their minds and say, "nope, not listening!" - a couple of the replies in this thread have fallen in that category, and I misjudged you in assuming that would be your response.

Another question, if you're willing: If indeed the autographs were the sole inerrant documents, then why did God allow them to be lost to us? The idea is that he specifically revealed them because he wanted us to have them, right? Why are we left with faulty copies? And when men were selecting which Christian documents to include in the canon, and which to exclude, did God start intervening again to inspire them to make the right choices, or were those men just as imperfect as the copyists before and after them?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I will have to study the prophecy again after reading up as best I can on the history of Tyre, and see if I can understand what the Lord, through Ezekiel, was revealing.[/quote

Perhaps I can help. The Tyre that was destroyed was never rebuilt. What was rebuilt and perpetuated the name 'Tyre' was a harmless fishing village that bears no resemblance to the great Tyre that was such an affront to God. So the prophecy stands. :preach:
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So, why do you believe your religion is real, and all the others false? What is the reasoning behind the most important belief in your life?

If there is no objective reality what's wrong with a 'subjective' one?

But seriously, we don't choose the Christian faith, it chooses us. Only pretenders claim to have 'chosen' the Christian faith (although there is that darned 'importuning widow' :p).
 
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GaryS

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I will have to study the prophecy again after reading up as best I can on the history of Tyre, and see if I can understand what the Lord, through Ezekiel, was revealing.

Perhaps I can help. The Tyre that was destroyed was never rebuilt. What was rebuilt and perpetuated the name 'Tyre' was a harmless fishing village that bears no resemblance to the great Tyre that was such an affront to God. So the prophecy stands. :preach:

"Bare rock." Not even close.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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"Bare rock." Not even close.

A study of 'tells', or the mounds of successive cities built upon one another over millenia should help you understand that although the several successions of the cities built on that coastal location were renamed after the former glorious Tyrus, they were not the same city. That city was destroyed by God, never to be rebuilt.

Every major detail in Ezekiel's prophecy concerning the fall of ancient Tyre are supported by secular historians and archeologists.

The scaping of the earth (dust) was a common practice throughout the ancient world as everything of value was removed, even the topsoil. The rest was destroyed leaving little trace of the conquered city.

That Alexander used the 'rubble' (another Hebrew meaning of 'dust') of the destroyed mainland part of Tyre to build a causeway out to the island city may further explain the passage.
 
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GaryS

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A study of 'tells', or the mounds of successive cities built upon one another over millenia should help you understand that although the several successions of the cities built on that coastal location were renamed after the former glorious Tyrus, they were not the same city. That city was destroyed by God, never to be rebuilt.

Every major detail in Ezekiel's prophecy concerning the fall of ancient Tyre are supported by secular historians and archeologists.

The scaping of the earth (dust) was a common practice throughout the ancient world as everything of value was removed, even the topsoil. The rest was destroyed leaving little trace of the conquered city.

That Alexander used the 'rubble' (another Hebrew meaning of 'dust') of the destroyed mainland part of Tyre to build a causeway out to the island city may further explain the passage.

Thank you for your reply. Your rationalizations are fascinating to me. Let's see if I've followed you correctly, is this right?:


* "Never be rebuilt" means "... with every stone exactly as it was; building a more advanced city in the same spot with the same name doesn't count"

* "I will make you a bare rock" means "... you'll still go on to be covered by cities and inhabitants, though"

* Those ruins which are still standing don't contradict the idea that the area was scraped bare

* "Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates" means "he won't actually breach your fortress"

* "his horses will trample all your streets" means "actually, he'll be held off outside for 13 years, then abandon the siege"

* "Nebuchadnezzar and his army" means "... and 200 years later, Alexander"

* ... who is henceforth identified as "they," despite having already begun the speech by identifying a different plural entity, and making no direct reference whatsoever to this change in subject

* "They will plunder your wealth" means "... not the guy I started off talking about, though - he won't get squat"


And you find all this more plausible than simply saying Ezekiel was wrong, or the text is flawed, or that you can't understand what God really meant?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Thank you for your reply. Your rationalizations are fascinating to me. Let's see if I've followed you correctly, is this right?:


* "Never be rebuilt" means "... with every stone exactly as it was; building a more advanced city in the same spot with the same name doesn't count"

* "I will make you a bare rock" means "... you'll still go on to be covered by cities and inhabitants, though"

* Those ruins which are still standing don't contradict the idea that the area was scraped bare

* "Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates" means "he won't actually breach your fortress"

* "his horses will trample all your streets" means "actually, he'll be held off outside for 13 years, then abandon the siege"

* "Nebuchadnezzar and his army" means "... and 200 years later, Alexander"

* ... who is henceforth identified as "they," despite having already begun the speech by identifying a different plural entity, and making no direct reference whatsoever to this change in subject

* "They will plunder your wealth" means "... not the guy I started off talking about, though - he won't get squat"


And you find all this more plausible than simply saying Ezekiel was wrong, or the text is flawed, or that you can't understand what God really meant?

Regarding 'they':

3:"Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
4:And they ( the 'many nations' of the above verse) shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock."
 
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razeontherock

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I see you are harping on the Prophecy of Tyre. First of all, post #20 is an appropriate response. Second of all, did you read this for yourself and object, or is this something you copypastad off Ihategod.com?


Next, I replied re: God's existence to the Bible, "I readily admit that going from there to the God of the bible and then Jesus Christ, requires a leap of Faith."

Thank you for acknowledging this. How do you know you're leaping in the right direction?

I see no answer other than personal revelation. It's what Peter got, what doubting Thomas got, what Jesus builds His Church with, what I got, and I see no reason he wouldn't also show the same thing(s) to you, if you could approach Him the same "Way" we did. The question is, can you?


"Fulfilled to the smallest detail, and zero misses"? If you honestly believe there are zero failed prophecies, then what do you call these?:

1) The prophet Isaiah declares that no one who is uncircumcised will enter the city of Jerusalem again:

"Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. " (Isaiah 52:1)

You're going to have to understand the text before you can pick at it. You're really in no position to even attempt to do so. (Esp based on your comment here) The same applies even moreso to your other examples
 
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GaryS

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I see you are harping on the Prophecy of Tyre. First of all, post #20 is an appropriate response. Second of all, did you read this for yourself and object, or is this something you copypastad off Ihategod.com?

I agree, post #20 contained some very reasonable sentiments. It was thoughtful and interesting. I liked it.

The other respondent on that topic took a very different position to post #20. The idea that biblical prophecies cannot necessarily be understood by mankind, and may appear flawed as a result of human error at any step along the way, seems entirely valid. It is an idea that would be in complete disagreement with an earlier poster's viewpoint, which was that those prophecies constitute proof of divine authorship when evaluated on rational grounds.

To answer your accusation, every biblical reference I've made has been one I read and researched myself.


I see no answer other than personal revelation. It's what Peter got, what doubting Thomas got, what Jesus builds His Church with, what I got, and I see no reason he wouldn't also show the same thing(s) to you, if you could approach Him the same "Way" we did. The question is, can you?

I have approached Christianity with an open mind and an open heart. If God spoke to me then, he told me something very different than he told you.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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To answer your accusation, every biblical reference I've made has been one I read and researched myself.

You read and accepted the research of skeptics. That said I must add the postscript that in order to more fully understand the destruction of Tyrus one must also read Chapters 27-28. One must also understand that the account contains many literary devices, as does most of the bible. It seems that you want to put bible accounts into a 'literal' box, when in fact the bible is richly filled with metaphor, typology, allegory, poetry, etc. The main message of the bible is often hidden within these devices, albeit often hidden 'in plain sight'.
 
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razeontherock

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I agree, post #20 contained some very reasonable sentiments. It was thoughtful and interesting. I liked it.

The other respondent on that topic took a very different position to post #20. The idea that biblical prophecies cannot necessarily be understood by mankind, and may appear flawed as a result of human error at any step along the way, seems entirely valid. It is an idea that would be in complete disagreement with an earlier poster's viewpoint, which was that those prophecies constitute proof of divine authorship when evaluated on rational grounds.

Post #26 also took yet another tack. I'm not knowledgeable enough on those specifics to be able to comment, but you and OWG are taking past each other.

To answer your accusation, every biblical reference I've made has been one I read and researched myself.

It wasn't an accusation; just a question. You must admit your list of things to trot out certainly looks like you're serving up copypasta.

I have approached Christianity with an open mind and an open heart. If God spoke to me then, he told me something very different than he told you.

It would be interesting to compare notes. Do you think G-d spoke to you then, are you not sure, or do you think He didn't?
 
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razeontherock

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You read and accepted the research of skeptics. That said I must add the postscript that in order to more fully understand the destruction of Tyrus one must also read Chapters 27-28. One must also understand that the account contains many literary devices, as does most of the bible. It seems that you want to put bible accounts into a 'literal' box, when in fact the bible is richly filled with metaphor, typology, allegory, poetry, etc. The main message of the bible is often hidden within these devices, albeit often hidden 'in plain sight'.

:thumbsup:
 
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GaryS

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It would be interesting to compare notes. Do you think G-d spoke to you then, are you not sure, or do you think He didn't?


Since you asked, here is what was revealed to me, in a thousand places and in a thousand voices:

Insofar as there is a God, His testimony is in the universe all around us. It is in the stars above, in the earth under our feet, in every living cell and every law of nature. He who created all the wonders of the cosmos also blessed us with precious gifts: He gave us eyes with which to see, and minds with which to think, and hearts with which to feel. He must want us to use them.

The god of the bible is not that God. The biblical god expects us to accept without question, and to defer to an ancient book instead of the evidence that surrounds us. The biblical god tells us that the earth does not move, and that it has ends, that it's shaped so that standing on a high mountain would enable you to see every kingdom in the world, that there is a mass of water sitting on top of the sky, underneath of which are the stars and moon. The biblical god doesn't know that tsunamis exist, that insects have six legs, or that rabbits don't chew cud.

These are exactly the kind of misconceptions that iron-age tribesmen would have. But the God of creation would obviously know better.

The God who made us gave us hearts with which to know good from evil, and blessed us with a boundless potential for love and compassion. The god of the bible is cruel and capricious; he punishes unborn children with death if their mothers are unfaithful to their husbands, and orders his servants to butcher women and children en masse. The biblical god lies about his nature constantly, claiming at once to be merciful and slow to anger, then declaring himself wrathful and unforgiving. He tells us his mind never changes, then he changes it repeatedly.

If I were to ignore the screamingly obvious explanation that the bible is merely written by ordinary men, I would be rejecting all the gifts that the God of creation has granted me. He gave me common sense, surely He expects me to use it.

I have seen countless apologetics struggle to convince themselves of insane rationalizations. They resort to redefining words at whim, or inserting them into God's mouth, stretching and twisting the scripture like a contortionist trying to fit into a suitcase. When the text is unsalvagable, they claim it is metaphorical. When the metaphor is unpalatable, they claim it is literal. Either they are convinced that they alone hold the key to the bible's meanings, even as they contradict themselves and each other, or they cast the net of ambiguity so wide that none of their claims warrant certainty.

If God Almighty, who wove the fabric of the universe and set the stars alight, wished to communicate with us, he could do far better than to leave us the piecemeal remains of a collection of contradictory Levantine tribal law and inconsistent third-hand accounts of miracles like those that have been claimed in nearly every culture throughout history.

The terrifying and beautiful truth is that God didn't leave us an instruction manual. He gave us something better: The ability to think for ourselves.


And that's all.
 
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razeontherock

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What I see is you were exposed to horrible teaching, and/or read the Bible w/o mixing it with Faith. Your first paragraph is accurate though:

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. (Psalm 19:3) [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard."

This says the same thing
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The biblical god doesn't know that................. rabbits don't chew cud.

"Rabbits don't chew the cud", is called one of the 'most beloved bible contradictions by unbelievers'. Problem is that rabbits do 'chew' the 'cud', when the Hebrew language concerning it, and the actual digestive process of the animal, is considered.
 
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GaryS

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"Rabbits don't chew the cud", is called one of the 'most beloved bible contradictions by unbelievers'. Problem is that rabbits do 'chew' the 'cud', when the Hebrew language concerning it, and the actual digestive process of the animal, is considered.

Feces is not cud. The term was used to describe animals which actually do chew cud, and erroneously included rabbits. The "actual digestive process" of a ruminant is fundamentally different.

You're willing to convince yourself that swallowing excrement is the same thing as eating food, if your religion tells you so. You obviously know better, but your unshakable obedience means more to you than common sense.


I started this thread because I found it so hard to believe that there really are people who think this way. You've been tremendously helpful in enabling me to accept and comprehend that fact. Thank you.
 
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Feces is not cud. The term was used to describe animals which actually do chew cud, and erroneously included rabbits. The "actual digestive process" of a ruminant is fundamentally different.

You're willing to convince yourself that swallowing excrement is the same thing as eating food, if your religion tells you so. You obviously know better, but your unshakable obedience means more to you than common sense.


I started this thread because I found it so hard to believe that there really are people who think this way. You've been tremendously helpful in enabling me to accept and comprehend that fact. Thank you.

Rabbits chew the cud. If it stands "Feces", than that is cud. You have no proof they don't chew cud. Everything in the bible is correct. Stop acting like you know more than God. The Bible is true science, and knowledge.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 
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