Why do you believe your religion is real?

[GaryS]

This seems like the most obvious and important question for anyone who chooses to believe in a religion, yet it's rarely a focus of discussion, and many believers haven't given it much thought:


Why, of all the religions in the world, do you believe that yours is the "real" one? Why do you believe its extraordinary claims are true, and not a work of fiction, as so many others clearly must be?


It would make no sense to respond with, "I know it's true because the bible says it is" - that would be circular reasoning. Many other supposed holy books make mutually exclusive claims. They can't all be right.

Sometimes believers justify their faith on the basis of "gut feelings." While those may be convincing to the individual who experiences them, these clearly don't constitute evidence in any broader sense: People have gut feelings that turn out to be wrong all the time, like the perpetual gambler who is always convinced that he's about to win on his next big bet, even though he usually turns out to be wrong. And, again, believers from many different religions report "gut feelings" that their religion is the right one. Either most or all of them must be wrong.

Another response that sometimes comes up is prophecy - a claim that the bible contained accurate predictions about the future, or knowledge of nature, which no ordinary mortal could possibly have known. (This context refers to those predictions which could be later verified, of course). This would be a very sensible and convincing response, but the prophecies contained in the bible aren't very extensive and don't have an excellent record of coming true. In this category, the Christian bible doesn't necessarily out-perform other holy books, like the qu'ran, or other historical forecasters. It's a good premise, but if it leads to concluding, "if that's my basis, I guess I should worship Nostradamus instead," then it doesn't really support the religion.


There's another answer that could be given: "I believe in my religion because my mom/dad did, or I was born into a part of the world where it's popular and I'm following the crowd, or because I find it comforting or convenient to do so, even if there's no logical reason behind it." That might be incredibly honest, and I think most anyone could appreciate that much, so long as the believer didn't move from that into the idea that such beliefs should dictate public policy or be forced upon others.


So, why do you believe your religion is real, and all the others false? What is the reasoning behind the most important belief in your life?

 

[juvenissun]

This seems like the most obvious and important question for anyone who chooses to believe in a religion, yet it's rarely a focus of discussion, and many believers haven't given it much thought:


Why, of all the religions in the world, do you believe that yours is the "real" one? Why do you believe its extraordinary claims are true, and not a work of fiction, as so many others clearly must be?


It would make no sense to respond with, "I know it's true because the bible says it is" - that would be circular reasoning. Many other supposed holy books make mutually exclusive claims. They can't all be right.

Sometimes believers justify their faith on the basis of "gut feelings." While those may be convincing to the individual who experiences them, these clearly don't constitute evidence in any broader sense: People have gut feelings that turn out to be wrong all the time, like the perpetual gambler who is always convinced that he's about to win on his next big bet, even though he usually turns out to be wrong. And, again, believers from many different religions report "gut feelings" that their religion is the right one. Either most or all of them must be wrong.

Another response that sometimes comes up is prophecy - a claim that the bible contained accurate predictions about the future, or knowledge of nature, which no ordinary mortal could possibly have known. (This context refers to those predictions which could be later verified, of course). This would be a very sensible and convincing response, but the prophecies contained in the bible aren't very extensive and don't have an excellent record of coming true. In this category, the Christian bible doesn't necessarily out-perform other holy books, like the qu'ran, or other historical forecasters. It's a good premise, but if it leads to concluding, "if that's my basis, I guess I should worship Nostradamus instead," then it doesn't really support the religion.


There's another answer that could be given: "I believe in my religion because my mom/dad did, or I was born into a part of the world where it's popular and I'm following the crowd, or because I find it comforting or convenient to do so, even if there's no logical reason behind it." That might be incredibly honest, and I think most anyone could appreciate that much, so long as the believer didn't move from that into the idea that such beliefs should dictate public policy or be forced upon others.


So, why do you believe your religion is real, and all the others false? What is the reasoning behind the most important belief in your life?

Because my religion answered all my questions. Others can not.

 

[razeontherock]

^ ^ What he said

Sometimes believers justify their faith on the basis of "gut feelings." While those may be convincing to the individual who experiences them, these clearly don't constitute evidence in any broader sense

While I agree this is certainly not the solid Rock foundation Jesus teaches to "build our house upon," during the ongoing process that is Salvation G-d has given me a good heart; "a good gut" if you will, that I should learn to listen to. I haven't really learned to do that yet.

Another response that sometimes comes up is prophecy - a claim that the bible contained accurate predictions about the future, or knowledge of nature, which no ordinary mortal could possibly have known. (This context refers to those predictions which could be later verified, of course). This would be a very sensible and convincing response, but the prophecies contained in the bible aren't very extensive and don't have an excellent record of coming true.

Yes it does. Of course to realize this you have to know what the text is saying, so your conclusion here makes that part suspect.

There's another answer that could be given: "I believe in my religion because my mom/dad did, or I was born into a part of the world where it's popular and I'm following the crowd, or because I find it comforting or convenient to do so, even if there's no logical reason behind it." That might be incredibly honest, and I think most anyone could appreciate that much, so long as the believer didn't move from that into the idea that such beliefs should dictate public policy or be forced upon others.

I don't deny that such people exist, or even that they make up the majority of those who sit in pews on Sunday. I haven't met people like that on CF though. (Which kinda makes sense; why would such people spend time here?)

So, why do you believe your religion is real, and all the others false? What is the reasoning behind the most important belief in your life?

Logic. Experience. These things don't point me to "religion" at all, and the connotations that word is loaded with are the subject of an in-depth conversation among Christians here, that gets repeated every so often, as you can probably imagine. It does point to a Creative God though. I readily admit that going from there to the God of the bible and then Jesus Christ, requires a leap of Faith. That is when things get interesting, and when G-d shows up

"the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following." (Mark 16:20)

 

[drich0150]

This seems like the most obvious and important question for anyone who chooses to believe in a religion, yet it's rarely a focus of discussion, and many believers haven't given it much thought:


Why, of all the religions in the world, do you believe that yours is the "real" one? Why do you believe its extraordinary claims are true, and not a work of fiction, as so many others clearly must be?


It would make no sense to respond with, "I know it's true because the bible says it is" - that would be circular reasoning. Many other supposed holy books make mutually exclusive claims. They can't all be right.

Sometimes believers justify their faith on the basis of "gut feelings." While those may be convincing to the individual who experiences them, these clearly don't constitute evidence in any broader sense: People have gut feelings that turn out to be wrong all the time, like the perpetual gambler who is always convinced that he's about to win on his next big bet, even though he usually turns out to be wrong. And, again, believers from many different religions report "gut feelings" that their religion is the right one. Either most or all of them must be wrong.

Another response that sometimes comes up is prophecy - a claim that the bible contained accurate predictions about the future, or knowledge of nature, which no ordinary mortal could possibly have known. (This context refers to those predictions which could be later verified, of course). This would be a very sensible and convincing response, but the prophecies contained in the bible aren't very extensive and don't have an excellent record of coming true. In this category, the Christian bible doesn't necessarily out-perform other holy books, like the qu'ran, or other historical forecasters. It's a good premise, but if it leads to concluding, "if that's my basis, I guess I should worship Nostradamus instead," then it doesn't really support the religion.


There's another answer that could be given: "I believe in my religion because my mom/dad did, or I was born into a part of the world where it's popular and I'm following the crowd, or because I find it comforting or convenient to do so, even if there's no logical reason behind it." That might be incredibly honest, and I think most anyone could appreciate that much, so long as the believer didn't move from that into the idea that such beliefs should dictate public policy or be forced upon others.


So, why do you believe your religion is real, and all the others false? What is the reasoning behind the most important belief in your life?

Why do i know it is real, because I followed the prescribed path and found what the bible promised. or at least a portion of it. Hopefully the rest will come in 50 or so years

 

[Lukaris]

I believe the words of scripture that testify to the truth of God in the incarnation of His Son Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:15-17

King James Version (KJV)


15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.



A God who loves us so we do not die in mortal terror:


John 3:16-17

King James Version (KJV)


16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.




A God who saves those by faith and commands us to reciprocate in goodness towards all.

Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



A God who will not overlook anyone whose heart He knows, but we cannot determine or judge, in the virtues shared by Christian & non Christian alike (except the final one reserved for Christian martyrs etc.):

Matthew 5:1-12

King James Version (KJV)

Matthew 5


1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.



A God who is sovereign and just:

Romans 9:14-18

King James Version (KJV)


14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.



A God who calls us to believe for our salvation:

Romans 10:9-13

King James Version (KJV)


9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.



A God who calls us to love Him and our neighbor:

Matthew 22:36-40

King James Version (KJV)


36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[1watchman]

The world is full of religions --works, so I have chosen instead to follow the Bible, which is clearly the Word of God. Think about it: would not the God of all creation give us His immutable Word, so we would know what He requires and expects of His people? --elementary!

Many people say they follow the Bible, and that because they believe a few verses, but God calls us to embrace "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27) and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (2 Tim. 2:15). That is my intention, my surety, and my eternal security.

 

[Faulty]

Claiming the prophesies in the bible aren't extensive, demonstrates a complete lack of understanding concerning them.

There are hundreds fulfilled to the smallest detail, and zero misses. No one else had that.

 

[mindfulness]

I don't.

I believe Christ is real.

Huge difference there.

 

[ebia]

Experience; because it makes coherent sense of that experience.

Which is pretty much why we "believe" most things we find to be true.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I have some mystical experience, which indicates either I am slightly crazy, or there may be a God, or both. Or neither. Meh.

However I aqm quite tentative in my general religious beliefs, and am experimenting with the Catholic rather than a priori 100% rationistically dedicated to the veracity of everything she teaches.

 

[GaryS]

Thanks very much to those who took the time to respond. I appreciate your responses, and welcome further responders as well.

I'd like to ask some follow-up questions regarding some of your replies:

Because my religion answered all my questions. Others can not.

Would you be willing to elaborate on this? What sort of questions did you have that no other religion could answer, and what makes you think other religions don't have their own answers to those questions?

I readily admit that going from there to the God of the bible and then Jesus Christ, requires a leap of Faith.

Thank you for acknowledging this. How do you know you're leaping in the right direction?

I believe the words of scripture that testify to the truth of God in the incarnation of His Son Jesus Christ: ...

I don't fully understand your reply. Could you clarify? You've stated that you believe what the bible says, and I don't doubt that you do, but the question I was asking was, "How do you know you've picked the right thing to believe in?"

The world is full of religions --works, so I have chosen instead to follow the Bible, which is clearly the Word of God. Think about it: would not the God of all creation give us His immutable Word, so we would know what He requires and expects of His people? --elementary!

Many people say they follow the Bible, and that because they believe a few verses, but God calls us to embrace "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27) and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (2 Tim. 2:15). That is my intention, my surety, and my eternal security.

How do you know you've rightly divided the word of truth, as you say? Suppose someone came to you and said, "That's a nice bible you have there, but I have this different book which ALSO claims to be the true word of god." How would you determine which person has the right book?

Claiming the prophesies in the bible aren't extensive, demonstrates a complete lack of understanding concerning them.

There are hundreds fulfilled to the smallest detail, and zero misses. No one else had that.

"Fulfilled to the smallest detail, and zero misses"? If you honestly believe there are zero failed prophecies, then what do you call these?:


1) The prophet Isaiah declares that no one who is uncircumcised will enter the city of Jerusalem again:

"Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. " (Isaiah 52:1)

That turned out to be false. Many uncircumcised people have entered Jerusalem. Uncircumcised people travel freely through the city even now.


2) Isaiah further promises Jerusalem will be a permanent safe refuge for the Jewish people:

"Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken. " (Isaiah 33:20)

Of course, control of Jerusalem went on to change hands many times, in several bloody conflicts. The city was frequently a violent and unsafe place for the Jewish people, far from the "quiet habitation" Isaiah predicted.


3) Jeremiah relays this prophecy to King Zedekiah, promising him a peaceful death:

"This is what the LORD says: I am about to give this city into the hands of the king of Babylon, and he will burn it down. You will not escape from his grasp but will surely be captured and given into his hands. You will see the king of Babylon with your own eyes, and he will speak with you face to face. And you will go to Babylon. Yet hear the LORD’s promise to you, Zedekiah king of Judah. This is what the LORD says concerning you: You will not die by the sword; you will die peacefully." (in Jeremiah 34:2-5)

But, here's what happens to Zedekiah:

"There at Riblah the king of Babylon killed the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes; he also killed all the officials of Judah. Then he put out Zedekiah’s eyes, bound him with bronze shackles and took him to Babylon, where he put him in prison till the day of his death. " (Jeremiah 52:10-11)

Can you honestly say that having your sons and countrymen killed in front of you, getting your eyes torn out, and dying in your enemies' prison counts as a "peaceful death"? Most people would feel very un-peaceful under those circumstances.


4) The prophecies of the book of Revelation were promised to be imminent: According to the text, they would "shortly come to pass" (Rev. 1:1), and "the time [was] at hand" (Rev. 1:3). It's been about 2000 years, and unfortunately, we're still waiting on those fire-breathing lion-horses and seven-headed dragons.


5) Ezekiel prophesied that the city of Tyre would be sacked by Nebuchadnezzar, who would plunder its wealth, and utterly and permanently annihilate the city, leaving only bare rock, never to be rebuilt:

“For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD." (Ezekiel 26:7-14)

That didn't happen. Nebuchadnezzar failed a 13-year siege against the city. Tyre survived his attack. The city is still around today. In fact, it's the fourth-largest city in Lebanon, very much alive and occupied at this moment.

Now, you could confirm that in many ways (Look at a map, perhaps? Yep, still there.) But you could simply keep reading Ezekiel, where the prophet himself later makes reference to Nebuchadnezzar's failure, and the fact that he did not succeed in pillaging Tyre:

"In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month on the first day, the word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon drove his army in a hard campaign against Tyre; every head was rubbed bare and every shoulder made raw. Yet he and his army got no reward from the campaign he led against Tyre. Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he will carry off its wealth. He will loot and plunder the land as pay for his army." (Ezekiel 29:17-19)

Even strictly using the bible itself as your reference, you have clear proof that Ezekiel's prophecy turned out to be false.


I hope this section is not derailing to the thread at large; my intent is not generally to focus on points of scripture, nor do I think everyone would find these points relevant to their beliefs. However, you presented an extraordinary claim, and I cannot really understand where you're coming from without hearing your response to tangible examples such as these.




Thank you again to everyone who has responded so far! Your time and thoughts are appreciated.

 

[RevelationSong]

I chose Christianity partially because of early exposure, and I fell away for a couple of years, then I began reattending church because my stress was making me fall apart. I became non-Dom, because I never found a Denomination that I completely identified with.

 

[AlexBP]

Would you be willing to elaborate on this? What sort of questions did you have that no other religion could answer, and what makes you think other religions don't have their own answers to those questions?

I hope you won't mind if I answer this, though it wasn't addressed to me. I was raised in an atheist household and from childhood through my college years, I was absolutely certain that all religion was superstitious nonsense and that I was superior because everything I believed was based on reason and proof. I held onto this set of beliefs until my second year of graduate school, in the last few years I was starting to be bothered by questions such as:

• Why is it that, even though I participate in all the activities that the secular world encourages me to do, none of them bring me any happiness?
• Why do I constantly have depression and suicidal thoughts, even though I have as many material things as anyone could want?
• Why do so many people who claim to be acting on reason do so many unreasonable things?
• Why does our society accept so many things that are morally wrong?

Then I was introduced to Christianity by meeting and speaking with real-life Christians and through the works of authors such as G. K. Chesterton and E. F. Schumacher and finally by reading the gospels. I found the answers to all of the deep questions about my life and human existence there.

 

[Jonathan95]

I know it mainly because of my experiences. Once you become born-again, you will have a new love towards everyone, and a new way of looking at them, and at the nature and animals, and a new love for them.

 

[Jonathan95]

Even strictly using the bible itself as your reference, you have clear proof that Ezekiel's prophecy turned out to be false.

No, everything in the bible is true, you have no proof it's false.

 

[Lukaris]

Originally Posted by Lukaris

I believe the words of scripture that testify to the truth of God in the incarnation of His Son Jesus Christ: ...
​

I don't fully understand your reply. Could you clarify? You've stated that you believe what the bible says, and I don't doubt that you do, but the question I was asking was, "How do you know you've picked the right thing to believe in?"


Sorry if I was not clear to you. It all comes down to life, death & accountability in our lives (according to the varying conditions of an indivdual). I beleive there is a God who has created us & will render a judgement according to our way of life. We can never live truly rightoeusly here but the Lord Jesus Christ will save those who know Him & act according to His will & those who may not know HIm now but He will determine as being blessed to be saved.

 

[food4thought]

Thanks very much to those who took the time to respond. I appreciate your responses, and welcome further responders as well.

I'd like to ask some follow-up questions regarding some of your replies:





"Fulfilled to the smallest detail, and zero misses"? If you honestly believe there are zero failed prophecies, then what do you call these?:


1) The prophet Isaiah declares that no one who is uncircumcised will enter the city of Jerusalem again:

"Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. " (Isaiah 52:1)

That turned out to be false. Many uncircumcised people have entered Jerusalem. Uncircumcised people travel freely through the city even now.


2) Isaiah further promises Jerusalem will be a permanent safe refuge for the Jewish people:

"Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken. " (Isaiah 33:20)

Of course, control of Jerusalem went on to change hands many times, in several bloody conflicts. The city was frequently a violent and unsafe place for the Jewish people, far from the "quiet habitation" Isaiah predicted.


3) Jeremiah relays this prophecy to King Zedekiah, promising him a peaceful death:

"This is what the LORD says: I am about to give this city into the hands of the king of Babylon, and he will burn it down. You will not escape from his grasp but will surely be captured and given into his hands. You will see the king of Babylon with your own eyes, and he will speak with you face to face. And you will go to Babylon. Yet hear the LORD’s promise to you, Zedekiah king of Judah. This is what the LORD says concerning you: You will not die by the sword; you will die peacefully." (in Jeremiah 34:2-5)

But, here's what happens to Zedekiah:

"There at Riblah the king of Babylon killed the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes; he also killed all the officials of Judah. Then he put out Zedekiah’s eyes, bound him with bronze shackles and took him to Babylon, where he put him in prison till the day of his death. " (Jeremiah 52:10-11)

Can you honestly say that having your sons and countrymen killed in front of you, getting your eyes torn out, and dying in your enemies' prison counts as a "peaceful death"? Most people would feel very un-peaceful under those circumstances.


4) The prophecies of the book of Revelation were promised to be imminent: According to the text, they would "shortly come to pass" (Rev. 1:1), and "the time [was] at hand" (Rev. 1:3). It's been about 2000 years, and unfortunately, we're still waiting on those fire-breathing lion-horses and seven-headed dragons.


5) Ezekiel prophesied that the city of Tyre would be sacked by Nebuchadnezzar, who would plunder its wealth, and utterly and permanently annihilate the city, leaving only bare rock, never to be rebuilt:

“For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD." (Ezekiel 26:7-14)

That didn't happen. Nebuchadnezzar failed a 13-year siege against the city. Tyre survived his attack. The city is still around today. In fact, it's the fourth-largest city in Lebanon, very much alive and occupied at this moment.

Now, you could confirm that in many ways (Look at a map, perhaps? Yep, still there.) But you could simply keep reading Ezekiel, where the prophet himself later makes reference to Nebuchadnezzar's failure, and the fact that he did not succeed in pillaging Tyre:

"In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month on the first day, the word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon drove his army in a hard campaign against Tyre; every head was rubbed bare and every shoulder made raw. Yet he and his army got no reward from the campaign he led against Tyre. Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he will carry off its wealth. He will loot and plunder the land as pay for his army." (Ezekiel 29:17-19)

Even strictly using the bible itself as your reference, you have clear proof that Ezekiel's prophecy turned out to be false.


I hope this section is not derailing to the thread at large; my intent is not generally to focus on points of scripture, nor do I think everyone would find these points relevant to their beliefs. However, you presented an extraordinary claim, and I cannot really understand where you're coming from without hearing your response to tangible examples such as these.




Thank you again to everyone who has responded so far! Your time and thoughts are appreciated.

If you don't mind, I can answer for Faulty.

1 and 2: Both of these are prophecies which are yet future. They will be fullfilled in the Millenium Age (Isa 33:20 fulfilled in Rev 20:4-9) and in the future eternal state (Isa 52:1 fulfilled in Rev 21:27)

3: Zedekiah did experience horrible things, but the fact remains that he was not killed as a result of the seige nor executed for his rebellion, but lived out his life and died a natural death.

4: Believe it or not God inhabits eternity, and with Him a 1000 years is as a day.

5: Nebuchadnezzar did conquer the city proper of Tyre, just as the first part of the prophecy (v7-11) indicate. The city had an Island fortress which he did not manage to conquer, and thus was denied the majority of Tyre's wealth, just as the later prophecy (Eze 29) indicates. If you will notice in verse 12, the pronouns used by Ezekiel changes from primarily "he" (indicating Nebuchadnezzar) to "they". At this point the prophecy skips forward a few hundred years and speaks of what Alexander the Great was able to accomplish. He was able to conquer both the city and the island fortress and utterly destroyed it... after this, the fortress was never again rebuilt, nor was the original site of the city, and currently both the island and original location of the city are indeed used as places for fishermen to dry their nets. The city of Tyre itself was later rebuilt in another spot, where it stands today. The prophecy was literally fulfilled.

As faulty indicated, your understanding of the prophecies was lacking. This is not an insult, it is simply the truth... sadly, a truth that you share with a large percentage of modern Christians who have not taken the time to do an in depth study of the prophetic books.

 

[GaryS]

I hope you won't mind if I answer this, though it wasn't addressed to me.

Not at all, I appreciate your response. It sounds like your belief is based on the experience that you are happier and more fulfilled with it than without, because it encourages you to look past materialism, and provides a moral framework that you agree with. That makes sense, and I respect where you're coming from. Does your position also entail a conviction that the solutions offered by other religions are false? If you met a Muslim who told you a similar story ("I, too, found secular life empty and materialistic, etc., but then I discovered Islam and felt fulfilled, and my questions were answered") would you think he's lying? Or would there be something fundamentally less valid about his experience than yours?

If you don't mind, I can answer for Faulty.

1 and 2: Both of these are prophecies which are yet future. They will be fullfilled in the Millenium Age (Isa 33:20 fulfilled in Rev 20:4-9) and in the future eternal state (Isa 52:1 fulfilled in Rev 21:27)

3: Zedekiah did experience horrible things, but the fact remains that he was not killed as a result of the seige nor executed for his rebellion, but lived out his life and died a natural death.

4: Believe it or not God inhabits eternity, and with Him a 1000 years is as a day.

5: Nebuchadnezzar did conquer the city proper of Tyre, just as the first part of the prophecy (v7-11) indicate. The city had an Island fortress which he did not manage to conquer, and thus was denied the majority of Tyre's wealth, just as the later prophecy (Eze 29) indicates. If you will notice in verse 12, the pronouns used by Ezekiel changes from primarily "he" (indicating Nebuchadnezzar) to "they". At this point the prophecy skips forward a few hundred years and speaks of what Alexander the Great was able to accomplish. He was able to conquer both the city and the island fortress and utterly destroyed it... after this, the fortress was never again rebuilt, nor was the original site of the city, and currently both the island and original location of the city are indeed used as places for fishermen to dry their nets. The city of Tyre itself was later rebuilt in another spot, where it stands today. The prophecy was literally fulfilled.

As faulty indicated, your understanding of the prophecies was lacking. This is not an insult, it is simply the truth... sadly, a truth that you share with a large percentage of modern Christians who have not taken the time to do an in depth study of the prophetic books.

Ezekiel was perfectly clear who he was referring to: Nebuchadnezzar and his army. This is not an ambiguous verse: "From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. He will ..." Ezekiel goes on to list the things Nebuchadnezzar and his army will do.

At no point does he give any indication that his subject has changed from "Nebuchadnezzar and his army." There is no basis for concluding that "they" are anyone other. He didn't say "Alexander," he didn't say "... but then a different guy will come along," or "Hundreds of years later, a second attack, unrelated to the one I've been describing for the last nine sentences, will commence." To say that he has suddenly changed subjects mid-speech is to display a disregard for context that borders on contempt.

Your assertion that the island and original site of the city remained unbuilt upon is utterly, demonstrably false. Look for yourself, here is the city today. That's the island portion there on the left. It extends onto the shore, on the right. You can zoom in and see that it is very much still occupied. Here is a map showing its historical location, just off shore. Here is an illustration of how it was built into the modern-day peninsula. Tyre is a remarkable place in that it has preserved some of its ancient ruins scattered amongst the modern structures (for archaeology, and of course tourism); you can see in this photo that the ancient ruins and the modern city are in the same place, and it is just a stone's throw from an ancient structure to a modern one; the city is built in, around, and on top of its old location.

It is clearly not a "bare rock." It was not annihilated, and the area has obviously been extensively rebuilt. You yourself said Tyre was rebuilt in another spot, which is not only demonstrably false, it also contradicts God's promise that it would "never be rebuilt." You can see with your own eyes that the city stands, and where; you can read for yourself where the bible promises this shall not be so.

I don't say this for the purpose of arguing with you. I don't even want to change your mind. I fully expect that no amount of evidence, however convincing, could ever get you to admit that your bible contains a lie, since you are probably operating under the immutable assumption that it is faultless, and where reality is at odds with this, reality must bend. But I beg you to tell me this: Could you honestly look someone in the eye, and swear upon your eternal soul and those of your children that you really, truly believe the city of Tyre does not survive today? That Isaiah made his promises to the Jews knowing that none among them, nor their descendents for millennia hence would see them fulfilled? That when Zedekiah died in the hands of his enemies, broken and mutilated, and the last thing he ever saw was the murder of his sons, that God was fulfilling his promise of peace? And that two thousand years and more is what "soon" means?

 

[ChristianT]

The only lies are in quotes.

 

[food4thought]

Not at all, I appreciate your response. It sounds like your belief is based on the experience that you are happier and more fulfilled with it than without, because it encourages you to look past materialism, and provides a moral framework that you agree with. That makes sense, and I respect where you're coming from. Does your position also entail a conviction that the solutions offered by other religions are false? If you met a Muslim who told you a similar story ("I, too, found secular life empty and materialistic, etc., but then I discovered Islam and felt fulfilled, and my questions were answered") would you think he's lying? Or would there be something fundamentally less valid about his experience than yours?

Good questions. I am happier and more fulfilled as a Christian, it has encouraged me to look beyond materialism, and it does provide a moral framework (although I do struggle with understanding where God is coming from on certain OT laws). Still, this is not my reason for accepting Christianity nor is it the reason for my firm faith. I have personally experienced the touch of God in my heart and some supernatural direction through His Holy Spirit... these are the reasons for my faith.

As for other religions, I can make no real deductions on the experiences of their adherents. I do believe that Christ is necessary for justification before God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, though. I believe that Satan is the great imitator of God, as it is his expressed desire to take the place of God. Before I became a Christian, I experienced different things through drugs that I interpreted as spiritual; but I can only say that my experience with God has been of an entirely different nature, and I have never heard any other religion's adherent claim the type of experience that I have.

Ezekiel was perfectly clear who he was referring to: Nebuchadnezzar and his army. This is not an ambiguous verse: "From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. He will ..." Ezekiel goes on to list the things Nebuchadnezzar and his army will do.

At no point does he give any indication that his subject has changed from "Nebuchadnezzar and his army." There is no basis for concluding that "they" are anyone other. He didn't say "Alexander," he didn't say "... but then a different guy will come along," or "Hundreds of years later, a second attack, unrelated to the one I've been describing for the last nine sentences, will commence." To say that he has suddenly changed subjects mid-speech is to display a disregard for context that borders on contempt.

If you begin with what it says in verses 1-6 as an overview of the entire prophecy, then it makes perfect sense. In verse 3 it says that God "...will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up." This indicates many successive waves, not one. The switch of pronouns is there, and it does indicate a change of some sort in who He is referring to.

Your assertion that the island and original site of the city remained unbuilt upon is utterly, demonstrably false. Look for yourself, here is the city today. That's the island portion there on the left. It extends onto the shore, on the right. You can zoom in and see that it is very much still occupied. Here is a map showing its historical location, just off shore. Here is an illustration of how it was built into the modern-day peninsula. Tyre is a remarkable place in that it has preserved some of its ancient ruins scattered amongst the modern structures (for archaeology, and of course tourism); you can see in this photo that the ancient ruins and the modern city are in the same place, and it is just a stone's throw from an ancient structure to a modern one; the city is built in, around, and on top of its old location.

It is clearly not a "bare rock." It was not annihilated, and the area has obviously been extensively rebuilt. You yourself said Tyre was rebuilt in another spot, which is not only demonstrably false, it also contradicts God's promise that it would "never be rebuilt." You can see with your own eyes that the city stands, and where; you can read for yourself where the bible promises this shall not be so.

Thank you. I am going to have to do some study to help me find out exactly how to interpret this prophecy. I am sorry for expounding something that was not true, but I did it in sincere belief that it was accurate.

I don't say this for the purpose of arguing with you. I don't even want to change your mind. I fully expect that no amount of evidence, however convincing, could ever get you to admit that your bible contains a lie, since you are probably operating under the immutable assumption that it is faultless, and where reality is at odds with this, reality must bend. But I beg you to tell me this: Could you honestly look someone in the eye, and swear upon your eternal soul and those of your children that you really, truly believe the city of Tyre does not survive today? That Isaiah made his promises to the Jews knowing that none among them, nor their descendents for millennia hence would see them fulfilled? That when Zedekiah died in the hands of his enemies, broken and mutilated, and the last thing he ever saw was the murder of his sons, that God was fulfilling his promise of peace? And that two thousand years and more is what "soon" means?

I admit to not understanding the prophecy of Tyre entirely. The NT testifies that the prohets often did not fully understand the revelations they were given, so what they believed regarding these prophecies is not important. It is our jobs as students of Scripture to understand as the Lord gives us insight, and I believe the Lord will give me understanding in His time. God did not promise Zedekiah a peaceful life, he promised that he would die peacefully, something entirely different. If possible, I would look you in the eyes and honestly say that I entrust my eternal soul to Jesus, and that I believe that the original autagraphs of the Old and New Testament Scriptures were without error.

I don't think you really understand my faith very well... I do not deny reality, as you see, I admit my error when it is presented to me. My faith is not in how well I understand the Bible, my faith is in the One who authored the Bible through various men over the centuries. The Bible is a tool God has given us to better understand Him and how He has interacted with man throughout history. It's primary purpose is to reveal some of Himself to us, and to direct us into a relationship with Him. The fact that myself and various Bible expositors are in error regarding the modern state of Tyre does not affect my faith in God... The Bible is crystal clear on how wrong it is to put ones trust in men. Again, I thank you for correcting my understanding of this text, as I do not want to continue teaching something that is not true. I will have to study the prophecy again after reading up as best I can on the history of Tyre, and see if I can understand what the Lord, through Ezekiel, was revealing.