Why do you believe in the trinity when God and his word is simple

[stuart lawrence]

If one is led by the Spirit then they speak the truth. Prophets speak the truth of God. If one says they speak the truth of God, but deny the power of that truth, they are to be avoided.

I for one believe the Spirit is at work in me and in those whom I speak with about God's truth, to deny this would be foolish.

2 Timothy 3:1-5
"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking I different kinds of tongues.
Icor12:28

Apostles and prophets are the first two appointments, before teachers/ ministers. Only in peoples minds would they have been appointed as such and be on internet debating websites.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Seriously you and all of your trinitarian buddies spend some time and rebut all of that evidence. If you can't then we know why.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Only God can forgive sins? How many Gods to you believe there are?

If you forgive anyone his sins they are forgiven, if you do not forgive them they are not forgiven
John 20:23

It seems it isn't a trinity, but at least fourteen now!!

 

[redleghunter]

Only God can forgive sins? How many Gods to you believe there are?

If you forgive anyone his sins they are forgiven, if you do not forgive them they are not forgiven
John 20:23

It seems it isn't a trinity, but at least fourteen now!!

Interesting reply. Perhaps Matthew 18:15–20 will shed some light on this.

If we can take your assertion to it's natural conclusion, then Christ did not have to be the sacrifice for our sins. We just could go around and say "hey Joe, you committed adultery....No problem, I forgive you."

 

[stuart lawrence]

Interesting reply. Perhaps Matthew 18:15–20 will shed some light on this.

If we can take your assertion to it's natural conclusion, then Christ did not have to be the sacrifice for our sins. We just could go around and say "hey Joe, you committed adultery....No problem, I forgive you."

Its quite simple. Christ received authority from the father to forgive sins, and he gave his disciples the authority to forgive sins. As his father sent him, so he sent the disciples.
But of course, that would never satisfy the would be scholar or theologian
Its very plainly written. Christ told the disciples if they forgive anyone their sins they are forgiven.
But as I said the other day, no one admits to error on these websites

 

[redleghunter]

Its quite simple. Christ received authority from the father to forgive sins, and he gave his disciples the authority to forgive sins. As his father sent him, so he sent the disciples.
But of course, that would never satisfy the would be scholar or theologian
Its very plainly written. Christ told the disciples if they forgive anyone their sins they are forgiven.
But as I said the other day, no one admits to error on these websites

Jesus gave the disciples the authority to forgive sins in what way?

This is where the 'simple' becomes a bit more complex due to the misconception Jesus Christ, Son of God Son of Man is somehow a lesser 'god.'

The answer to your incomplete assertion is a failing in knowing what Jesus Christ taught from Torah.

There are two relationships within Torah commanded by YHWH which Jesus summarizes quite nicely here:


Matthew 22:

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Two relationships humans have with (1) God and (2) each other.

 

[civilwarbuff]

That is a strong rebuttal....I will have to go back and see the context....thx.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jesus gave the disciples the authority to forgive sins in what way?

This is where the 'simple' becomes a bit more complex due to the misconception Jesus Christ, Son of God Son of Man is somehow a lesser 'god.'

The answer to your incomplete assertion is a failing in knowing what Jesus Christ taught from Torah.

There are two relationships within Torah commanded by YHWH which Jesus summarizes quite nicely here:


Matthew 22:

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Two relationships humans have with (1) God and (2) each other.

All you are doing is proving what I repeatedly state. The unstated rule for many is:

I shall never admit to error.

Jesus said if the disciples forgave anyone their sins they are forgiven. And rather than admit that rebuttal is obviously wrong( Jesus is God because only God can forgive sins) you want to try and argue it

 

[redleghunter]

All you are doing is proving what I repeatedly state. The unstated rule for many is:

I shall never admit to error.

Jesus said if the disciples forgave anyone their sins they are forgiven. And rather than admit that rebuttal is obviously wrong( Jesus is God because only God can forgive sins) you want to try and argue it

I gave you the expository on what you called 'simple.' Pulling these verses out and using such to suggest that Christ in His capacity gave the authority of God to forgive all sins to His disciples would make the cross and empty tomb irrelevant.

You did not consider what I posted about mankind's relationship to God and to fellow man. The Greatest Commandment.

The next step would be to see how the NT church applied the forgiveness of sins. Look at the relationships involved and what the commissioned work of the apostles and disciples consisted of:


Ephesians 4:32

Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Matthew 6:14-15

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 6:37

“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Colossians 3:13

Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

Matthew 18:21-22

Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

Mark 11:25

And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

Luke 17:3-4

Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

1 Peter 3:9

Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Matthew 5:44

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Matthew 6:14

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,

James 5:16

Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

1 Peter 3:7

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

Matthew 18:35

So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Luke 23:34

And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

Romans 5:10

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Hebrews 12:1-2

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[thebackyardpreacher]

These are ancient sacred text that span thousands of years. Who ever told you that it is simple is well in fact, simple.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I gave you the expository on what you called 'simple.' Pulling these verses out and using such to suggest that Christ in His capacity gave the authority of God to forgive all sins to His disciples would make the cross and empty tomb irrelevant.

You did not consider what I posted about mankind's relationship to God and to fellow man. The Greatest Commandment.

The next step would be to see how the NT church applied the forgiveness of sins. Look at the relationships involved and what the commissioned work of the apostles and disciples consisted of:


Ephesians 4:32

Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Matthew 6:14-15

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 6:37

“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Colossians 3:13

Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

Matthew 18:21-22

Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

Mark 11:25

And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

Luke 17:3-4

Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

1 Peter 3:9

Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Matthew 5:44

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Matthew 6:14

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,

James 5:16

Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

1 Peter 3:7

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

Matthew 18:35

So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Luke 23:34

And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

Romans 5:10

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Hebrews 12:1-2

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

The conclusion of your first paragraph is frankly ridiculous. A
Jesus said all authority had been given to him. Who by?
That should only need a one word answer! ( I live in hope)
Jesus gave authority also to his disciples.
<Staff Edit>

 

[redleghunter]

These are ancient sacred text that span thousands of years. Who ever told you that it is simple is well in fact, simple.

Indeed and ensuring we take in the whole counsel of God.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I understand you do not want to address the nature of Christians forgiving Christians and thus instituting church discipline; contrasted with only God can forgive transgressions against Him.

Perhaps exploring the epistle to the Hebrews will clear up the matter as it is stated in the text Christ is our High Priest.

I understand you do not want to address the nature of Christians forgiving Christians and thus instituting church discipline; contrasted with only God can forgive transgressions against Him.

Perhaps exploring the epistle to the Hebrews will clear up the matter as it is stated in the text Christ is our High Priest.

Christ could only forgive sins because he was given the ability from his father as the son of man. He couldn't do it on his own. He had a lot of help. All of his miracles all of his knowledge was from the father. If a trinitarian can't understand the basic concept that all of Christ's abilities and knowledge and healings and works were from the father then you aren't going to understand that he isn't God. Christ forgave sins through the father. Not on his own. If God gave you or me the ability we could do it as well.

 

[redleghunter]

Christ could only forgive sins because he was given the ability from his father as the son of man. He couldn't do it on his own. He had a lot of help. All of his miracles all of his knowledge was from the father. If a trinitarian can't understand the basic concept that all of Christ's abilities and knowledge and healings and works were from the father then you aren't going to understand that he isn't God. Christ forgave sins through the father. Not on his own. If God gave you or me the ability we could do it as well.

What does the OT say about the Son of man?

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus existed in one form, Philippians 2, vs. 6, but took upon himself another form, vs. 7.

What was Jesus’ form before? If he was literally, actually a man afterward what was he literally, actually before?

Philippians 2:6-11 6. Who, being [continual existence] in the form [μορφη] of God, thought it not robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God:

(Greek Interlinear) Philippians 2:6-11 ος {who,} εν {in [the]} μορφη {form} θεου {of god} υπαρχων {subsisting,} ουχ {not} αρπαγμον {something to be used to his own advantage} ηγησατο το {esteemed it} ειναι {the being} ισα {equal} θεω {with god;}​

The verb ειναι, translated ”to be,” in the KJV, which appears to be a future tense in English, is a present infinitive, not a future tense. “the being equal with god,” was a, then, present reality not something considered and declined.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him[self] the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:​

The conclusion of your first paragraph is frankly ridiculous. A
Jesus said all authority had been given to him. Who by?
That should only need a one word answer! ( I live in hope)
Jesus gave authority also to his disciples.
However, I let myself down by continuing such a discussion with you. All you are trying to do as usual is overturn the plainly written text to fit in with your errant beliefs. To admit error would be unthinkable!

Jesus’ earthly ministry occurred between verses, 7 and 8. Where the one who was equal with God, vs. 6, the one who, acting upon himself, became flesh, cf. John 1:14, made himself of no reputation, vs. 7, cf. Heb 2:17, took upon himself the form of a servant, and was in the likeness of men, vs. 7. After which God, not merely exalted him, but “highly exalted” him, and glorified him with the same glory he had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)

It was here where all the things anti-Trinitarians cannot comprehend happened, e.g. “If Jesus was God, why didn’t he know the hour of his return?” etc., etc., etc.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.​

If Jesus was only a mere human being, how does a human being, “humble himself and become obedient unto death?” All mankind is appointed to death, no obedience or humbling involved! Heb 9:27. Were the criminals who were crucified with Jesus also obedient, did they also humble themselves unto death on the cross?

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, cf. [יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] to the glory of God the Father.​

In verses 10,11 Paul applies Isaiah 45:23, which refers to יהוה/YHWH, to Jesus as I have shown above!

The Committee on Bible Translation worked at updating the New International Version of the Bible to be published in 2011.

In it's notes under "Progress in Scholarship" it discusses the following change:

When the NIV was first translated, the meaning of the rare Greek word αρπαγμον /harpagmos, rendered ‟something to be grasped,” in Philippians 2:6 was uncertain. But further study has shown that the word refers to something that a person has in their possession but chooses not to use to their own advantage. The updated NIV reflects this new information, making clear that Jesus really was equal with God when he determined to become a human for our sake: ‟[Christ Jesus], being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.”​

See full translators notes at: Bible Gateway NIV Translator’s Notes​

A short excerpt from the 25 page Harvard theological review article αρπαγμον /harpagmos, by Roy Hoover, referenced in the NIV.

‘O petros de arpagmon ton dia stavrou thanton epoieito dia tas soterious elpidas”

(And Peter considered death by means of the cross harpagmon on account of the hope of salvation, Comm in Luc 6)

“Tines…ton thanaton arpagma themenoi ten ton dussebon moxtherias”
(Since some regarded death as harpagma in comparison with the depravity of ungodly men. Hist. Eccl VCIII,12.2)

Not only are arpagma and arpagmos used synonymously in these two statements, but they are used synonymously by the same author in reference to the same object—death—and in expressions whose form precisely parallels that of the arpagmos remark in Phil 2:6.

What [Eusebius] wants to say, rather, is that because of the hope of salvation crucifixion was not a horror to be shunned, but an advantage to be seized.

“Arpagma” is used exactly this way in Hist. Eccl. VIII,12.2. At this point Eusebius is recounting the sufferings of Christians in periods of persecution. Some believers in order to escape torture threw themselves down from rooftops. There can be no suggestion of “robbery” or of violent self-assertion in this remark, nor can self-inflicted death under such circumstances be considered an unanticipated windfall.
Roy W. Hoover, Harvard Theological Review (1971) 95-119, pg. 108

Link to: Hoover Article​

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jesus existed in one form, Philippians 2, vs. 6, but took upon himself another form, vs. 7.

What was Jesus’ form before? If he was literally, actually a man afterward what was he literally, actually before?

Philippians 2:6-11 6. Who, being [continual existence] in the form [μορφη] of God, thought it not robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God:

(Greek Interlinear) Philippians 2:6-11 ος {who,} εν {in [the]} μορφη {form} θεου {of god} υπαρχων {subsisting,} ουχ {not} αρπαγμον {something to be used to his own advantage} ηγησατο το {esteemed it} ειναι {the being} ισα {equal} θεω {with god;}​

The verb ειναι, translated ”to be,” in the KJV, which appears to be a future tense in English, is a present infinitive, not a future tense. “the being equal with god,” was a, then, present reality not something considered and declined.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him[self] the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:​

Jesus’ earthly ministry occurred between verses, 7 and 8. Where the one who was equal with God, vs. 6, the one who, acting upon himself, became flesh, cf. John 1:14, made himself of no reputation, vs. 7, cf. Heb 2:17, took upon himself the form of a servant, and was in the likeness of men, vs. 7. After which God, not merely exalted him, but “highly exalted” him, and glorified him with the same glory he had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)

It was here where all the things anti-Trinitarians cannot comprehend happened, e.g. “If Jesus was God, why didn’t he know the hour of his return?” etc., etc., etc.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.​

If Jesus was only a mere human being, how does a human being, “humble himself and become obedient unto death?” All mankind is appointed to death, no obedience or humbling involved! Heb 9:27. Were the criminals who were crucified with Jesus also obedient, did they also humble themselves unto death on the cross?

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, cf. [יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] to the glory of God the Father.​

In verses 10,11 Paul applies Isaiah 45:23, which refers to יהוה/YHWH, to Jesus as I have shown above!

The Committee on Bible Translation worked at updating the New International Version of the Bible to be published in 2011.

In it's notes under "Progress in Scholarship" it discusses the following change:

When the NIV was first translated, the meaning of the rare Greek word αρπαγμον /harpagmos, rendered ‟something to be grasped,” in Philippians 2:6 was uncertain. But further study has shown that the word refers to something that a person has in their possession but chooses not to use to their own advantage. The updated NIV reflects this new information, making clear that Jesus really was equal with God when he determined to become a human for our sake: ‟[Christ Jesus], being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.”​

See full translators notes at: Bible Gateway NIV Translator’s Notes​

A short excerpt from the 25 page Harvard theological review article αρπαγμον /harpagmos, by Roy Hoover, referenced in the NIV.

‘O petros de arpagmon ton dia stavrou thanton epoieito dia tas soterious elpidas”

(And Peter considered death by means of the cross harpagmon on account of the hope of salvation, Comm in Luc 6)

“Tines…ton thanaton arpagma themenoi ten ton dussebon moxtherias”
(Since some regarded death as harpagma in comparison with the depravity of ungodly men. Hist. Eccl VCIII,12.2)

Not only are arpagma and arpagmos used synonymously in these two statements, but they are used synonymously by the same author in reference to the same object—death—and in expressions whose form precisely parallels that of the arpagmos remark in Phil 2:6.

What [Eusebius] wants to say, rather, is that because of the hope of salvation crucifixion was not a horror to be shunned, but an advantage to be seized.

“Arpagma” is used exactly this way in Hist. Eccl. VIII,12.2. At this point Eusebius is recounting the sufferings of Christians in periods of persecution. Some believers in order to escape torture threw themselves down from rooftops. There can be no suggestion of “robbery” or of violent self-assertion in this remark, nor can self-inflicted death under such circumstances be considered an unanticipated windfall.
Roy W. Hoover, Harvard Theological Review (1971) 95-119, pg. 108

Link to: Hoover Article​

I don't get my opinions by reading the thought of others. If I did I may come out with statements like:

Jesus is God because only God can forgive sins.

Jesus is God because he said the words I am.

Relying on scholars and theologians to learn, alongside lexicons and concordances leads to weak knowledge, often error

 

[stuart lawrence]

Please show me the verse where Jesus was given the power to forgive sins by the Father? The disciples being given one power did not make them totally equal to Jesus. Could the disciples heal the sick, make the blind see, raise the dead, walk on water, calm storms, feed thousands of people with only one boy's lunch, foretell the future, etc.?

Jesus said he had authority to forgive sins.
He also said all power and authority had been GIVEN to him. Matt28:18

Simple question

Who gave authority and power to Jesus?

 

[Der Alte]

I don't get my opinions by reading the thought of others. If I did I may come out with statements like:
Jesus is God because only God can forgive sins.
Jesus is God because he said the words I am.
Relying on scholars and theologians to learn, alongside lexicons and concordances leads to weak knowledge, often error

I speak more than one language, I read 4 languages, I was not born with that ability I had to learn from scholars. None of those scholars taught me opinion, they taught using time tested principles. Once upon a time I learned how to fly helicopters the instructors did not teach me opinion but used time tested principles. There are many heterodox religious groups all making the same claim "spiritual guidance" for their beliefs, JW, SDA, WWCG, OP, UPCI, UU, etc. All different but all claiming they are right and all the others are wrong. I don't get opinions from scholars, theologians, lexicons and concordances, I gain knowledge.
<Staff Edit>

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus said he had authority to forgive sins.
He also said all power and authority had been GIVEN to him. Matt28:18

Simple question

Who gave authority and power to Jesus?

Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Matthew 28:18 after the resurrection? During His earthly ministry Jesus did not have some powers/authority, e.g. the day and hour of His return, but after His resurrection "all authority in heaven and earth" was given to Him. See Philippians 2:6-11. Especially Philippians 2:9.

 

[Anto9us]

Interesting point... Does the Son KNOW NOW, DA? The day and hour of His return? Many think The Son does know NOW