Why do some reject Baptism as only a symbol?

[mikedsjr]

This is a question I wish to pose to those who reject value in Baptism except as symbolic. What is it, without giving some long form lecture you copy and paste, that we can start the conversation on that brings you to support Baptism is symbolic?

 

[JackRT]

To me, baptism is a public rite that celebrates something that has already taken place.

 

[Tigger45]

The majority of scriptures referring to baptism clearly indicate that there is much more than just symbolism going on.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Deluxe Super wash - makes us Holy as He is Holy, at least for a little while.

 

[mikedsjr]

Why do many Protestants reject baptism is more than a symbol? What is the background?

 

[mikedsjr]

Deluxe Super wash - makes us Holy as He is Holy, at least for a little while.

I don't understand your position.

 

[timewerx]

Deluxe Super wash - makes us Holy as He is Holy, at least for a little while.

I have a good reason to believe this. I must assume the first event took place in a spring where the water is of exceptional quality and killed harmful bacteria. Mountain spring water is often cold, similar to cold water from the fridge and can kill most (but not all) harmful bacterial by temperature alone.

At one point, I have managed to cleanse my room of some evil spirits using a small amount of bleach diluted in water.

I believe John the Baptist is trying to get rid of evil spirits that hang on to people all their life. An initiative to cleanse a society of evil spirits.

Evil spirits literally avoid sterile, and well-sanitized places. Literally unclean and stinking places are also hotspots for crime and lawlessness, if you observe.

 

[JackRT]

Bacteria are not killed by cold.

 

[robycop3]

I'm a Baptist, so I believe I have the right to comment on baptism.

Baptism is a public proclamation of one's salvation by Jesus. Our sins are washed away by His blood and His grace(unmerited favor), not by whatever H2O one is immersed in. And all we have in baptizing a baby is a wet baby.

Whet PROOF do we have that baptism is NOT essential for salvation? We have the example of the repentant thief on the cross beside the cross of Jesus. Jesus saved that man, who could not possibly be baptized. And also, Jesus told several people whom He'd healed & saved to "go and be baptized". We never see any definitely-unsaved person in Scripture being commanded to be baptized.

I believe every saved person SHOULD be baptized if at all possible, and GOD will know if it's possible or not for each individual. But baptism is definitely NOT A REQUIREMENT for salvation!

 

[Hammster]

Why do many Protestants reject baptism is more than a symbol? What is the background?

Because scripture doesn't represent it as any more than symbolic. Symbolic doesn't mean unimportant, though.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Baptism should be understood in the light of the Torah God gave to Israel.

Immersion is virtually always a rite that indicates a change of status. A man could meet the all the qualifications to be a priest (age, health, deformity etc.) but could not participate in the Temple activities until he was immersed.

Another example: any person who had finished the period of ritual impurity could enter the Temple until they had immersed, even though that period was over.

 

[robycop3]

Baptism should be understood in the light of the Torah God gave to Israel.

Immersion is virtually always a rite that indicates a change of status. A man could meet the all the qualifications to be a priest (age, health, deformity etc.) but could not participate in the Temple activities until he was immersed.

Another example: any person who had finished the period of ritual impurity could enter the Temple until they had immersed, even though that period was over.

Jesus fulfilled the OT ceremonial and sacrificial law in its entirety. Man is no longer condemned for eating non-kosher food, etc.

JESUS-not the Torah-is our example. He was baptized, and told several people He'd healed & saved to be baptized, but He also saved the repentant thief on the cross who couldn't be baptized before death.

 

[Rick Otto]

This is a question I wish to pose to those who reject value in Baptism except as symbolic. What is it, without giving some long form lecture you copy and paste, that we can start the conversation on that brings you to support Baptism is symbolic?

You should then be willing to answer "why do some reject symbolism as ineffective or meaningless?"
Peter explained it is the response of a good conscience toward Christ and Paul put it in perspective as well.
Superstition dies hard along with its craving for MYSTERY - (Saturnalia)

 

[Rick Otto]

Deluxe Super wash - makes us Holy as He is Holy, at least for a little while.

That is why Constantine waited until he was on his deathbed to do it. He too, misunderstood symbology and let superstion lead him to believe it would guarantee his sinlessness right after death, when it matters most, right before judgement.
smh

 

[AntoineL]

http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html

Does a good job with explaining this.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The Christian historical pattern of baptism has 2 aspects: John the baptist's preliminary preparation for entrance into the Kingdom, then after the resurrection of Christ baptism by fire which is from the Holy Spirit. One is the visible expression and the other the invisible aspect.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:41
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

What's visible to the world is the testimony of sharing in His death and what's invisible is the reality of the working of the Holy Spirit within. Without the working of the Holy Spirit in the invisible any outward show is just vainglory. Just as much as the lack of testimony makes the invisible something abstract and not practical.

Romans 6:3-4
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Galatians 3:27
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Water, symbolizing the death of Christ in His burial, associates us in the way that the history of the old self is no longer a factor, the old life being terminated also. And since Christ represents Father ,Son and Holy Spirit, Colossians 2:9 , in turn the invisible germinates life which is the eternal life of the Godhead and therefore the true baptism is into the life of the Body for the sake of the Kingdom. 1 Corinthians 12:13

 

[Imagican]

Acts 10:37
That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

Acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Acts 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.


1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

Hebrews 6King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

These words in particular point to such 'signs' or 'acts' to be a FIRST step that we are to MOVE ON from. Not continuing to lay the FOUNDATION of. In other words, these were the BEGINNING, but those who would GROW UP would move PAST these 'things'. Working towards PERFECTION instead of continuing to LAY the FOUNDATION.

It's like those that feel a NEED to continually RE dedicate themselves each week. Like ONCE isn't ENOUGH. They put Christ BACK on the cross EACH week as if there is NO POWER other than THEIR OWN.

If one has EVER dedicated their lives to Christ, I can assure you, ONCE was ENOUGH.

Baptism, (water Baptism) is NOT 'magic'. It merely shows a DESIRE. We are NOT 'magically transformed' by being DUNKED in water. If that were the case, we could go out tomorrow and start systematically dunking all our deviates in water turning them into "CHRISTIANS".

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

We can liken the BELIEF that Baptism is ALL IMPORTANT to the same words Paul offered about ANY of the 'gifts'. That there is something MUCH more IMPORTANT than 'spiritual gifts'. And that pertains to 'water Baptism' as well. While there is nothing WRONG with being Baptized in water, there is something MUCH MORE IMPORTANT: growing UP in Christ rather than focusing on 'childish things', (baby steps).

One does NOT HAVE to be Baptized in water. If that were the case, we would have to determine WHO, WHAT, WHERE and WHEN to make it EFFECTIVE. Can someone following SATAN offer TRUE Baptism rites? And what KIND of water is NEEDED? Is there a specific PLACE that it must take place or can we simply fill up a tub of water and it be effective? And is there a TIME in one's LIFE that must be reached BEFORE it is TRULY effective?

So the obvious answer is that we don't NEED to determine these 'things' for 'water Baptism' IS INDEED 'symbolic' rather than MAGIC.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[KingCrimson250]

I used to believe Baptism was symbolic. I don't anymore. I'm still a Baptist, just not a very good one.

For me, it honestly came down to personal experience. Something changed when I was baptized. I don't believe baptism is salvific, necessarily, but I certainly believe that there's something mystical to it. Unfortunately, Scripture never really lays out a distinct theology of baptism, so the claim on either side that "Scripture is clear that baptism is/isn't purely symbolic" is sophistry at best.

I've also come to the conclusion that the Eucharist is more than symbolic. Shhh! Don't tell the other Baptists!

So the obvious answer is that we don't NEED to determine these 'things' for 'water Baptism' IS INDEED 'symbolic' rather than MAGIC.

Yeah, okay. Proper Exegesis Rule #1: If you're gonna go through the Bible and look at the different instances of which words are used in which contexts, don't do this in English. Especially not with the KJV, but not in English in general. Also, this is nitpicking, but generally capitalization is a poor way of conveying emphasis. Tone should be sufficient. If not, go with italicization. Capitalization makes it seem like you randomly scream individual words in the middle of an ordinary sentence, which can make a statement seem more combative than it actually is.

 

[Tigger45]

I used to believe Baptism was symbolic. I don't anymore. I'm still a Baptist, just not a very good one.

For me, it honestly came down to personal experience. Something changed when I was baptized. I don't believe baptism is salvific, necessarily, but I certainly believe that there's something mystical to it. Unfortunately, Scripture never really lays out a distinct theology of baptism, so the claim on either side that "Scripture is clear that baptism is/isn't purely symbolic" is sophistry at best.

I've also come to the conclusion that the Eucharist is more than symbolic. Shhh! Don't tell the other Baptists!



Yeah, okay. Proper Exegesis Rule #1: If you're gonna go through the Bible and look at the different instances of which words are used in which contexts, don't do this in English. Especially not with the KJV, but not in English in general. Also, this is nitpicking, but generally capitalization is a poor way of conveying emphasis. Tone should be sufficient. If not, go with italicization. Capitalization makes it seem like you randomly scream individual words in the middle of an ordinary sentence, which can make a statement seem more combative than it actually is.

Sounds like you're a crypto Lutheran. Come on over, we have room for one more

 

[Imagican]

I used to believe Baptism was symbolic. I don't anymore. I'm still a Baptist, just not a very good one.

For me, it honestly came down to personal experience. Something changed when I was baptized. I don't believe baptism is salvific, necessarily, but I certainly believe that there's something mystical to it. Unfortunately, Scripture never really lays out a distinct theology of baptism, so the claim on either side that "Scripture is clear that baptism is/isn't purely symbolic" is sophistry at best.

I've also come to the conclusion that the Eucharist is more than symbolic. Shhh! Don't tell the other Baptists!



Yeah, okay. Proper Exegesis Rule #1: If you're gonna go through the Bible and look at the different instances of which words are used in which contexts, don't do this in English. Especially not with the KJV, but not in English in general. Also, this is nitpicking, but generally capitalization is a poor way of conveying emphasis. Tone should be sufficient. If not, go with italicization. Capitalization makes it seem like you randomly scream individual words in the middle of an ordinary sentence, which can make a statement seem more combative than it actually is.

Well, it would SEEM that you recognize that the reason I often use capital letters IS merely to emphasize. Then you go on to act like using capital letters is 'screaming'. When I speak I DO emphasize certain words. But I can assure you that as I'm speaking I don't have turrets that causes me to scream out one word in a sentence.

You are the ONLY person I have ever heard of that actually stated that 'water Baptism' actually brought about a 'recognizable change'. From my experience, that would certainly make you 'special'.

I notice only ONE difference when I was Baptized with water: I was WET. No change in ANYTHING. No 'new' understanding, no 'special feeling'. NO warm fuzzies whatsoever. Just WET.

It was YEARS after my 'water Baptism' that I was 'born again'. At THAT moment there was 'certainly' a change. No 'warm fuzzies', but my understanding was altered and I experienced an extended period of time in which I would only break down and CRY when I thought about who I had been PREVIOUS. And it was like LITERALLY, the next day, the manner in which I FELT things had changed. I recognized things that previous I was OBLIVIOUS to.

But this didn't happen to me when I was Baptized in water. It was YEARS LATER. Could 'rebirth' accompany 'water Baptism'? I assume that anything is possible. I only know that it had NO effect upon me other than making me WET.

So let me offer this: Since my 'rebirth' did NOT accompany Baptism in water, I can assure you, one CAN be reborn, (and I BELIEVE MOST), outside of 'water Baptism'. So in my case, (and most others I have ever heard of), the 'act of water Baptism' was NOT a magical moment and obviously was merely a symbolic gesture.

Scenario: I am in a shipwreck that result in me washing ashore on a deserted island. ONLY ME. One day, I'm walking along the beach and find an intact Bible that has washed ashore. I pick it up and begin to read. At one point, I become a BELIEVER. But there is no one there to dunk me in the water. Do you honestly believe that this would exclude me from 'rebirth'? That I would be DOOMED because there was no one there to Baptize me in water?

So you see, the concept is ludicrous. So that would only leave the answer to be 'symbolic'. It's SPIRITUAL rebirth that makes the difference and 'water Baptism', I can ASSURE YOU, does NOT always accompany water Baptism. Most here would attest to this FACT I can guarantee.

As a matter of FACT, Christ Baptized NO ONE in water. If it were as important as many insist, I can assure you that He would have. All He told us is that we MUST believe IN HIM. He NEVER stated that we MUST be Baptized in water.

And let me add this: I DO know that one's MIND can certainly have an effect on what we believe. A person can literally create sensations and find influence by convincing their own minds that it exists. Some are more capable of accomplishing this than others. I have witnessed people that KNEW people were following them. Not acting, but convinced themselves of it when I KNEW that no one was. I have also witnessed people who thought everyone was conspiring against them in every situation that they experienced daily. When I KNEW this to be merely something in THEIR mind.

The Bible tells us that it's possible for God Himself to offer strong delusion to those seeking proof of their beliefs. Even when those beliefs are untrue.

And then there's Satan who can mimic an angel of LIGHT. And if a demon could cause someone to loose control of their bodies, there is little doubt in my mind that they could certainly influence their THOUGHTS or BELIEFS.

This is in NO WAY an accusation. It is merely a reminder how we need to constantly be on the alert. We NEED to be capable of discerning the 'spirits' at ALL times. Otherwise, if we leave the 'door' open, at any time, we can be influenced by things that can lead us down 'other paths'.

Blessings,

MEC