Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

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DrBubbaLove

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It's all spin. You can't get away from it :) You're talking about a different thread; This is: Why some people don't believe hell is real

As long as you don't fall on your knees to worship the picture of your mother----we don't live under the law ;)
LOL that is what I get trying to watch the game and do this.
 
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strangertoo

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What is clear to me is that other people had different opinions that they ascribed to God, and those opinions were collected by those with like opinions.

not quite sure what these vague assertions refer to or whom the opinions are different from , but it is clear to me both that men can lie and so they do [even to themselves] -and that men can alter writings and so they do [on basis of their incomplete beliefs which reject the original words enough to change them denying the author ]

... however sufficient of scripture [agreeing with the spirit] exists [thus verified intact] to convey God's solution to this potentially devastating property of mankind ...

God undertakes to teach every single human being Himself , 100% pure and complete Truth direct from God [spirit baptism -John 16:13] eventually to all flesh [Joel 2:28] ,but very obviously not to many now in this life [many billions having died already and clearly not united in one Truth of God by their lives, not even the religious billions, some intensely so]
I cannot unknow what I know. It would be simpler and I would fit in with the thundering herd if I didn't know that.
Besides that belief, God says that we all can and will all 'unknow' everything that we learn which is false delusion in this earth and be conformed to all His Truth through the kingdom of Jesus Christ eventually - and indeed it should be clear that the diversity of beliefs men believe they know and call their 'FAITH' may all be false [yet men 'believe' despite knowing that over 99.9999% of it MUST logically be false because of the inconsistencies in the diversity of beliefs right down to individually unique beliefs] ... as we all know there is but one Truth given by God, but so very few are prepared to do what it takes to hear it [stop abusing others with sin, obey God and Jesus and so Love everyone because abuse leads to destruction and not least God's only way of saving men committed to sin is death Rom 6:7]

Had those that remained in political power---the church was an arm of Government in most of the world until fairly recently---not found the doctrine of hell expedient for controlling the masses, you might never have heard of it.
well , we shall see the power of united world religion yet [alongside and integral with complete world political and military power] in the final antichrist , Jesus revealed that in many places , so it is hard to ignore them all if one is going to accept any scripture was originally inspired by God or stops sinning so God can verify in spirit baptism ...

so as Daniel and others saw so long ago, the power of Rome thought largely dead today re-asserts itself in the final antichrist , which fits with many parallel observations ...

and a Jewish pope probably seems unlikely to many as the next pope even at this time with the current pope so frail that were it to happen and the new pope to be Peter [or 'the stone'] of Rome with the popes' standard title : 'Vicarius Filii Dei' meaning the same as 'antichristos' in Greek and summing to 666 in Latin then some might think it is not coincidence...

if we look at growing world tribulation designed and engineered by NWO and the long-established means to bring about acceptance of dictatorship by the few over the many under military conditions , and then see consolidated covert world power overtly in the hands of a world organisation, lasting three and half years before it collapses at the death of its fake God/Christ figure , and then Jesus returns, then we may begin to be sure of what comes next... too many 'coincidences'

then we may consider 'unknowing' what doesn't fit no matter how many agreed beforehand ... because the whole world worshipped a god who could not save himself from death [as distinct for instance from Jesus who chose death despite that he could have saved himself from death]

then we may learn humility such as is required before God , not to tell him what we believe from sinners , but to listen to what He says :-

Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

in short the great delusion is real and indeed God uses it for good in the end , but it's cause is mankind unwilling to Love so we cannot hear God , and Satan trying to be the god of all men , which he almost succeeds at doing , just a couple of thousand not accepting him out of billions, and they about to fail at the end under pressure from the whole world and all evil means Satan can bring to bear against them , everything , everyone ...
 
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Soulgazer

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not quite sure what these vague assertions refer to or whom the opinions are different from , but it is clear to me both that men can lie and so they do [even to themselves] -and that men can alter writings and so they do [on basis of their incomplete beliefs which reject the original words enough to change them denying the author ]

..
The key words are "inspired by". There is nothing supernatural going on here. Men are inspired to write what they THINK--- just as you are inspired to write by God, and I am inspired to write by God. It isn't even necessarily a lie-it is a reflection of what these men genuinely believed.
There were hundreds if not thousands of these writings. When they were collected and preserved, only the ones that matched the beliefs and ideals of the ones doing the collecting were preserved in the anthology known today as the "bible". The collectors, influenced by the Hellenization of the time liked the dualism inherent in the concepts of Heaven and Hell.
 
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Timothew

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Interesting spin to get the desired result.

But back to topic, still does not explain why it would be ok to kneel at mom's grave but horrible to do so in front of depiction of our Lord.
Hey Doc, I think you are free to do both, and both are great things to do.

But maybe that's just my opinion. God Bless You.
I'm sorry if I've been too hard on you.
 
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Timothew

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You can keep deluding yourself all you wish. But I have been to Hell and seen for myself that countless people are being tormented in all sorts of nasty ways. Quite a few are being roasted over pit fires, while devils and demons poke them with spears. Many other people are strapped in torture machines similar to those that occupied the dungeons of inquisitors' torturers. Countless other people languish around the shores of the Lake of Fire...Many people who have suffered near-death experiences have reported similar accounts of their visits to Hell....
Really Senecharnix, you've been to Hell and back?
Please give the details of this trip. I guess if you have really been there, you know more than me. I have to rely on what the bible says and what I've seen myself, but I've never been to heaven or hell. I've seen a few dead people, my parents and my father's parents, my neighbor's child (that was hard). None of them were being tormented over fire pits or were flying off to heaven. And the bible doesn't say that they were strapped in torture machines or given golden harps. But I've never been to either actual place, so I don't really know. When I talk about hell and the final punishment, I can only talk about what the bible says. So please, give me the details of your trip.
 
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Senecharnix

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Really Senecharnix, you've been to Hell and back?
Please give the details of this trip. I guess if you have really been there, you know more than me. I have to rely on what the bible says and what I've seen myself, but I've never been to heaven or hell. I've seen a few dead people, my parents and my father's parents, my neighbor's child (that was hard). None of them were being tormented over fire pits or were flying off to heaven. And the bible doesn't say that they were strapped in torture machines or given golden harps. But I've never been to either actual place, so I don't really know. When I talk about hell and the final punishment, I can only talk about what the bible says. So please, give me the details of your trip.


Don't make me laugh. You have proven you do not care what the Bible says about the subject....

I have already told you all that I am going to tell you about my first-hand knowledge of Hell, except that my experiences concerning it extend far beyond just one visit. Dismiss that assertion if you will. I will survive your doubt. But you are being rather high handed by dismissing out of hand what many people who have endured near-death experiences have said about their visits to Hell. Their ranks include some preachers. It takes lots of courage for someone such as a preacher to admit that he died and went to Hell. In fact, it takes a lot of courage for anyone to make such an admission. The remarkable thing about the visits to Hell that such folks have reported is how awful it is and how many people are suffering in such. Are you going to suggest all of them are seriously deluded liars?...
 
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Timothew

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Don't make me laugh. You have proven you do not care what the Bible says about the subject....

On the contrary, I actually do care about what the Bible says on the subject. I don't even know why you would claim that I don't care, much less claim that it has been PROVEN that I don't care about what the Bible says. Anyone who knows me, knows that I care deeply about what the Bible says, to the point of standing up to people who make outrageous claims of actually visiting hell.



I have already told you all that I am going to tell you about my first-hand knowledge of Hell, except that my experiences concerning it extend far beyond just one visit. Dismiss that assertion if you will. I will survive your doubt. But you are being rather high handed by dismissing out of hand what many people who have endured near-death experiences have said about their visits to Hell. Their ranks include some preachers. It takes lots of courage for someone such as a preacher to admit that he died and went to Hell. In fact, it takes a lot of courage for anyone to make such an admission. The remarkable thing about the visits to Hell that such folks have reported is how awful it is and how many people are suffering in such. Are you going to suggest all of them are seriously deluded liars?...
I am not suggesting they are all liars. I am also not being "high handed". Is it high handed to believe the Bible over second-hand stories circulating the internet?
 
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Senecharnix

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On the contrary, I actually do care about what the Bible says on the subject. I don't even know why you would claim that I don't care, much less claim that it has been PROVEN that I don't care about what the Bible says. Anyone who knows me, knows that I care deeply about what the Bible says, to the point of standing up to people who make outrageous claims of actually visiting hell.

Revisit your response to a post featuring excellent examples of the Bible suggesting that the condemned will suffer in Hell (by whatever name whomever wishes to call it). I recall you twisting things to suit your desperate hope to convince yourself that you are not fooling yourself in these matters. I found your arguments amusing but futile....


I am not suggesting they are all liars. I am also not being "high handed". Is it high handed to believe the Bible over second-hand stories circulating the internet?


You automatically presume too much...Who said anything about second-hand stories circulating on the Internet? There are many other sources of information, including mouth-to-ear communication. Accounts reported by people returning from Hell began long before Yeshua was born and have continued up to present times. Many thousands of people have made such reports and none of them suggest there is anything about Hell that is the least bit pleasant for its inmates....
 
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Timothew

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You automatically presume too much...Who said anything about second-hand stories circulating on the Internet? There are many other sources of information, including mouth-to-ear communication. Accounts reported by people returning from Hell began long before Yeshua was born and have continued up to present times. Many thousands of people have made such reports and none of them suggest there is anything about Hell that is the least bit pleasant for its inmates....
A "mouth to ear" story is by definition, a second hand story. I am NOT saying that Hell is pleasant. I don't even know where you got the idea that I said that. Hell is not pleasant, it is destruction. No destruction is pleasant, but destruction is also not eternal conscious torment.

Why do you say I "automatically presume too much"? I merely believe what the bible says and I try to NOT presume that stories about hell are automatically true.

If someone comes to me with a far-fetched story, is it presuming too much to ask for proof? It isn't presuming too much, especially since these stories contradict what the bible says.
Senecharnix said:
You have proven you do not care what the Bible says about the subject....
You are beginning to prove that you don't care what the Bible says. You seem to care more about what people say about hell, than what the bible says.
 
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LutheranMafia

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I was watching a History Channel documentary on Hell when it was mentioned that the Egyptian religion was Annihilationist. I looked it up and sure enough it is true. I have highlighted all the occurrences of the word annihilation so you can see how often it comes up in this book on Egyptian religion from the Princeton Theological Seminary Library.

So Timothew's argument about othrodox views coming from paganism is trumped by the fact that Annihilationism began with Egyptians, not with Christians.


Egyptian Belief and Moden Thought

While the doctrine of everlasting torment has support from the monuments of Egypt, the Annihilationists, or believers in the final destruction of the wicked, are not without Egyptian support. Mr. Baring-Gould says, "A high degree of education must be attained before the notion of annihilation can be apprehended." That is an argument for the intuitional teaching of immortality.

To this Mariette Bey alludes, when he says of the truly impenitent, "for these a second death, that is to say, a definitive annihilation, is reserved." In another place he writes: ''The definitive annihilation in the midst of the torments of a true hell was the suffering reserved for the condemned." Rouge writes: "As to the condemned souls, they are forced to submit to the second death."

Their sacred writings support this idea. Annihilation furnishes the subject of many prayers ; as, " Let me not be annihilated." In a prayer to Osiris for the departed, it is said, " He sees in thee and he lives in thee, it is in thee he will never be annihilated." In the 93rd chapter of the Ritual, one reads, " The rebels become immovable things during millions of years." The worm utterly devours them ; the fire absolutely consumes them. The man may be beheaded, or swallowed by a hippopotamus. Madame Blavatsky, in His Revealed, refers to " the gradual dissolution of the astral form into its primal elements."

Pierret says : " The tomb is piteously closed upon those whose faults condemn them to annihilation." Lenormant asserts that the wicked, " before being annihilated, are condemned to suffer a thousand tortures, and, under the form of an evil spirit, to return here and disturb men, and exert themselves for their injury." Mr. Cooper, a most competent authority, with similar views, writes: " The final punishment of the wicked consisted in utter annihilation, after a period of frightful torture in a fiery hell." The opinion, therefore, of the Rev. Edward White and others, was forestalled in Egypt, doubtless several thousand years ago. M. F. Lenormant distinctly affirms : " The annihilation of being was held by the Egyptians as the punishment reserved for the wicked." The Zendavesta of the ancient Persians affirmed, " Hell shall be destroyed at the resurrection."

M. Deveria indicates a parallel with the Book of the Revelation, parts of which, at least, are deemed by the author of the " Book of God," and by others, as copies of the most ancient sacred writings in the world. The French Egyptologist says: " The wicked who submit to these punishments (described on monuments) are condemned to absolute annihilation, without hope of ever seeing the living again. This annihilation is called the second death in some hieroglyphic texts, as in the Apocalypse."

Full text of "Egyptian belief and modern thought .."
 
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Senecharnix

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I was watching a History Channel documentary on Hell when it was mentioned that the Egyptian religion was Annihilationist. I looked it up and sure enough it is true. I have highlighted all the occurrences of the word annihilation so you can see how often it comes up in this book on Egyptian religion from the Princeton Theological Seminary Library.

So Timothew's argument about othrodox views coming from paganism is trumped by the fact that Annihilationism began with Egyptians, not with Christians.


Egyptian Belief and Moden Thought

While the doctrine of everlasting torment has support from the monuments of Egypt, the Annihilationists, or believers in the final destruction of the wicked, are not without Egyptian support. Mr. Baring-Gould says, "A high degree of education must be attained before the notion of annihilation can be apprehended." That is an argument for the intuitional teaching of immortality.

To this Mariette Bey alludes, when he says of the truly impenitent, "for these a second death, that is to say, a definitive annihilation, is reserved." In another place he writes: ''The definitive annihilation in the midst of the torments of a true hell was the suffering reserved for the condemned." Rouge writes: "As to the condemned souls, they are forced to submit to the second death."

Their sacred writings support this idea. Annihilation furnishes the subject of many prayers ; as, " Let me not be annihilated." In a prayer to Osiris for the departed, it is said, " He sees in thee and he lives in thee, it is in thee he will never be annihilated." In the 93rd chapter of the Ritual, one reads, " The rebels become immovable things during millions of years." The worm utterly devours them ; the fire absolutely consumes them. The man may be beheaded, or swallowed by a hippopotamus. Madame Blavatsky, in His Revealed, refers to " the gradual dissolution of the astral form into its primal elements."

Pierret says : " The tomb is piteously closed upon those whose faults condemn them to annihilation." Lenormant asserts that the wicked, " before being annihilated, are condemned to suffer a thousand tortures, and, under the form of an evil spirit, to return here and disturb men, and exert themselves for their injury." Mr. Cooper, a most competent authority, with similar views, writes: " The final punishment of the wicked consisted in utter annihilation, after a period of frightful torture in a fiery hell." The opinion, therefore, of the Rev. Edward White and others, was forestalled in Egypt, doubtless several thousand years ago. M. F. Lenormant distinctly affirms : " The annihilation of being was held by the Egyptians as the punishment reserved for the wicked." The Zendavesta of the ancient Persians affirmed, " Hell shall be destroyed at the resurrection."

M. Deveria indicates a parallel with the Book of the Revelation, parts of which, at least, are deemed by the author of the " Book of God," and by others, as copies of the most ancient sacred writings in the world. The French Egyptologist says: " The wicked who submit to these punishments (described on monuments) are condemned to absolute annihilation, without hope of ever seeing the living again. This annihilation is called the second death in some hieroglyphic texts, as in the Apocalypse."

Full text of "Egyptian belief and modern thought .."


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
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Senecharnix

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A "mouth to ear" story is by definition, a second hand story. I am NOT saying that Hell is pleasant. I don't even know where you got the idea that I said that. Hell is not pleasant, it is destruction. No destruction is pleasant, but destruction is also not eternal conscious torment.

Why do you say I "automatically presume too much"? I merely believe what the bible says and I try to NOT presume that stories about hell are automatically true.

If someone comes to me with a far-fetched story, is it presuming too much to ask for proof? It isn't presuming too much, especially since these stories contradict what the bible says.

You are beginning to prove that you don't care what the Bible says. You seem to care more about what people say about hell, than what the bible says.


Tim, you are presuming again. Mouth-to-ear communicaton can and often is a process whereby the FIRST-HAND source speaks, while I listen...The Bible most certainly does support the contenton that Hell is real and that it is a prison for lost souls being tormented...As I said before, I believe you are correct to a large degree. But I also think you are wrong to a significant degree. That is, many folks consigned to Hell will cease to exist at some point. Others will not be allowed to die because they are immensely wicked and so deserve perpetual punishment....
 
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Soulgazer

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I was watching a History Channel documentary on Hell when it was mentioned that the Egyptian religion was Annihilationist. I looked it up and sure enough it is true. I have highlighted all the occurrences of the word annihilation so you can see how often it comes up in this book on Egyptian religion from the Princeton Theological Seminary Library.

So Timothew's argument about othrodox views coming from paganism is trumped by the fact that Annihilationism began with Egyptians, not with Christians.


Egyptian Belief and Moden Thought

While the doctrine of everlasting torment has support from the monuments of Egypt, the Annihilationists, or believers in the final destruction of the wicked, are not without Egyptian support. Mr. Baring-Gould says, "A high degree of education must be attained before the notion of annihilation can be apprehended." That is an argument for the intuitional teaching of immortality.

To this Mariette Bey alludes, when he says of the truly impenitent, "for these a second death, that is to say, a definitive annihilation, is reserved." In another place he writes: ''The definitive annihilation in the midst of the torments of a true hell was the suffering reserved for the condemned." Rouge writes: "As to the condemned souls, they are forced to submit to the second death."

Their sacred writings support this idea. Annihilation furnishes the subject of many prayers ; as, " Let me not be annihilated." In a prayer to Osiris for the departed, it is said, " He sees in thee and he lives in thee, it is in thee he will never be annihilated." In the 93rd chapter of the Ritual, one reads, " The rebels become immovable things during millions of years." The worm utterly devours them ; the fire absolutely consumes them. The man may be beheaded, or swallowed by a hippopotamus. Madame Blavatsky, in His Revealed, refers to " the gradual dissolution of the astral form into its primal elements."

Pierret says : " The tomb is piteously closed upon those whose faults condemn them to annihilation." Lenormant asserts that the wicked, " before being annihilated, are condemned to suffer a thousand tortures, and, under the form of an evil spirit, to return here and disturb men, and exert themselves for their injury." Mr. Cooper, a most competent authority, with similar views, writes: " The final punishment of the wicked consisted in utter annihilation, after a period of frightful torture in a fiery hell." The opinion, therefore, of the Rev. Edward White and others, was forestalled in Egypt, doubtless several thousand years ago. M. F. Lenormant distinctly affirms : " The annihilation of being was held by the Egyptians as the punishment reserved for the wicked." The Zendavesta of the ancient Persians affirmed, " Hell shall be destroyed at the resurrection."

M. Deveria indicates a parallel with the Book of the Revelation, parts of which, at least, are deemed by the author of the " Book of God," and by others, as copies of the most ancient sacred writings in the world. The French Egyptologist says: " The wicked who submit to these punishments (described on monuments) are condemned to absolute annihilation, without hope of ever seeing the living again. This annihilation is called the second death in some hieroglyphic texts, as in the Apocalypse."

Full text of "Egyptian belief and modern thought .."
I would agree that the modern american form of Christianity is pagen in origin. Pagen simply means "hillbilly" or country bumpkin; Christianity in this country was spread and carried by the uneducated frontier preacher, and a lot of those roots are still deeply entwined. This further exasperates the spread of paganism that took hold in the middle ages when the Black Death decimated the seats of learning.


Egypt had the longest lasting empire of any Empire on earth, bar none. They have probably the oldest culture on earth. It only makes sense that they would have had a profound influence on succeeding religions and philosophies.

Judaism is derived from multiple sources, including Egyption. And of course Christianity is derived from Judaism. Annihilationism dates back to some of the earliest Christian writings, or as it was called "outer Darkness". Everything exists in God's mind, according to these writings. When God ceases to think about your soul, it ceases as if it never was.
 
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for the record, the word "hell" is never once found ever in the original Greek/Hebrew manuscripts.... the only words that are found in place of "hell" is "Sheol/Hades/Tartarus/Gehenna". the term "hell" is actually Anglo-Saxon in origin, reaching from both the Anglo-Saxon pagan "hel, helle" the and Proto-Germanic "halja"... so, in this case, i would ask that we keep to the scriptural words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna when we discuss the topic of the punishment of the wicked, for these terms are found within the Bible. "Hell" is not.

a couple of questions need to be asked and answered with scripture and apostolic tradition (2Thess2:15) before we go any further into eternal torment/conditional immortality:

is Sheol/Hades/Tartarus/Gehenna all the same place?
if they're not the same place, what are these places?
 
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Soulgazer

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for the record, the word "hell" is never once found ever in the original Greek/Hebrew manuscripts.... the only words that are found in place of "hell" is "Sheol/Hades/Tartarus/Gehenna". the term "hell" is actually Anglo-Saxon in origin, reaching from both the Anglo-Saxon pagan "hel, helle" the and Proto-Germanic "halja"... so, in this case, i would ask that we keep to the scriptural words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna when we discuss the topic of the punishment of the wicked, for these terms are found within the Bible. "Hell" is not.

a couple of questions need to be asked and answered with scripture and apostolic tradition (2Thess2:15) before we go any further into eternal torment/conditional immortality:

is Sheol/Hades/Tartarus/Gehenna all the same place?
if they're not the same place, what are these places?
I object. My Apostolic Succession is Paul-Theotus-Valentinious-Ptolomy :p


It will depend on which book of the bible you are talking about. They were not written in the same place at the same time. 1 Thessalonians is genuine Paul, probably from around 50AD. 2 Thessalonians is said to have been written around 90AD. This date was common for the proliferation of pseudo-apostle letters and Gospels. The meaning had forty years in which to change. An afterlife of any kind was not formally accepted by any part of Judaism until 350BC-----so any reference written before then would be as "worthless life".
 
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Senecharnix

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for the record, the word "hell" is never once found ever in the original Greek/Hebrew manuscripts.... the only words that are found in place of "hell" is "Sheol/Hades/Tartarus/Gehenna". the term "hell" is actually Anglo-Saxon in origin, reaching from both the Anglo-Saxon pagan "hel, helle" the and Proto-Germanic "halja"... so, in this case, i would ask that we keep to the scriptural words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna when we discuss the topic of the punishment of the wicked, for these terms are found within the Bible. "Hell" is not.

a couple of questions need to be asked and answered with scripture and apostolic tradition (2Thess2:15) before we go any further into eternal torment/conditional immortality:

is Sheol/Hades/Tartarus/Gehenna all the same place?
if they're not the same place, what are these places?


Sheol and Hades are the realm of the dead. Tartarus and Gehenna are Hell. So, yes, Hell is metioned in the Bible....
 
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Senecharnix

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so Gehenna is the same as Tartarus?... got a Bible verse to prove that?


I have a few dictionaries and enough common sense to know that one plus one is two. By any other name, Hell still stinks real bad....
 
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