Why do people have sex (apart from for reproduction)?

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Cromulent

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Freedom of choice doesn't have anything to do with it. You'd still be free to do whatever you wanted, to make whatever choices you felt like.

It is almost as if God is using us as his playthings. Making certain things feel good, then forbidding people from doing them for arbitrary reasons, just so he can get his own satisfaction when some people deny themselves.

A parent who left out a load of brightly coloured prescription pills alone in a room with a toddler would be a fairly awful parent. They wouldn't get away with the excuse that they were helping the toddler "exercise their free will". I don't see why God should be held to a lower standard.
 
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Blackwater Babe

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To create something good is the Creator's prerogative. To create beings unable to exercise free choice is to construct robots. Genuine freedom to choose entails the possibility of wrong choices. But that does not overturn the original goodness of creation. A corrupt politician is a blot on democracy, but that does not mean we should denounce democracy.

That's my position as a person with freedom of choice, not as a organism responding to positive and negative reinforcements.

John
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Tee hee

Insert mandatory joke about New Zealand, sheep, and wrong choices here.
 
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Mling

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A lot of atheists seem to enjoy comparing physical characteristics to beliefs. You selected "tall people". In another thread, another atheists decided to toss in the idea of bald people.

That's an intriguing trend too. Perhaps there is something genetic that leads a person to be unable to grasp the concept of ideas or emotions being in any way separate or distinct from physical traits. I note trying to discuss the phenomenon of consciousness with atheists tends to lead down a dead and road as well.

You seem unable to grasp that other people aren't beholden to act in accordance with your stereotypes.

You are being given an opportunity here--the opportunity to become more right.

If you stop beginning all your thoughts with "clearly I'm right, and this person is saying otherwise, so all atheists are incapable of understanding themselves," then you might be able to learn something that improves your understanding of the world.

Some atheists have a lot of interesting things to say about consciousness. A lot of study has been done on self-awareness, cognition, meta-cognition, empathy, dreams, and many, many other topics that make up "consciousness."

If you're hitting a dead end, it isn't because of atheists. It's probably because you're driving the conversation into a wall, the way you've been doing here.

If it really matters all that much to you, though, I'll use a non-physical trait as a comparison.

Would you insist that all archers share the same worldview, simply due to their sharing the choice to pursue archery? If you find that some archers are deeply religious conservatives, and others are atheist hippies, would you accuse archers of being incapable of understanding large, coherent systems of thought, simply because they haven't all gotten together and created a moral system unique to archers, that is shared by all?

What about if you found that not all Christians share the same worldview?

Are Christians then incapable of formal thought?

What do you think gives you the right to pick the traits that other people will put at the center of their moral and philosophical worldviews?
 
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Shane Roach

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What about if you found that not all Christians share the same worldview?

Are Christians then incapable formal thought?

But Christians have their senseless DOGMA, didn't you know? Atheists never have a set dogma.

Oh, but now Christians do not have a dogma? And Atheists do, as it turns out?

Can you make up your mind?

There are indeed some different Christian dogmas. There are no atheistic dogmas. Atheists do not come together to create systems of their own. They come together to destroy any system containing mention of a god or gods.
 
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Johnnz

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But Christians have their senseless DOGMA, didn't you know? Atheists never have a set dogma.

There are no atheistic dogmas. Atheists do not come together to create systems of their own. They come together to destroy any system containing mention of a god or gods.

That is not completely true. Modern atheists generally will subscribe to some variant of Enlightenment reliance on human rationality, a belief in progress and science and technology to bring that about. All religion is relegated to the realms of superstition or something similar. Morality is a matter of personal choice; values replace morals.

John
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Mling

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But Christians have their senseless DOGMA, didn't you know? Atheists never have a set dogma.

Oh, but now Christians do not have a dogma? And Atheists do, as it turns out?

Can you make up your mind?

What are you talking about? Now you're just being completely incoherent.

There are indeed some different Christian dogmas. There are no atheistic dogmas.

Right. Because all there is to atheism is not believing in gods. It's one aspect of a person--often not the focal point of their life, and almost never the focal point of their moral and philosophical beliefs. People tend to build their philosophical worldviews around things that they believe, rather than things they don't. That's why no reasonable person would expect there to be unity among atheists. Because disbelief in one particular thing doesn't say anything about what the person does believe.

I believe in individual rights to autonomy for everybody, to the degree that they desire and are able to manage with some degree of safety (for themselves and/or the people around them, depending on the person).

That's an active belief--so that's something that's going to take a central place in my belief system. That I don't happen to believe in gods? Not all that important in my day to day life, and not all that important to my philosophical system. When I go to work and try to assist people with disabilities in the things they struggle with, so that they can have better control over their life, this is a day-to-day physical manifestation of my personal belief system. What does an absence of gods have to do with that? Why would I build a philosophical system around the absence of gods, when it's impossible to derive any useful conclusions from it?

No--my philosophical worldview is built around things I do believe in. Just like everybody else's.

If you want to know what sorts of philosophical systems atheists create and participate in, look into atheistic Buddhism, non-theistic Quakers and atheistic Humanism, off the top of my head. Those are systems that have religious counterparts, but have been partially created, and embraced, by atheists. And again, I mention philosophical systems that are simply areligious--they are embraced by people with a variety of religious beliefs, including none: political parties, feminism, men's rights, liberalism and conservatism. All include atheists (I'm making an assumption about the men's rights, as I know just barely enough about them to know that they're pretty vile, but since it's a non-religious worldview, it could easily involve atheists.)

Atheists do not come together to create systems of their own.

"Of their own,"--that is true. We don't create systems that are only accessible to atheists, because not many atheists feel the need to discriminate against religious people the way religious people discriminate against atheists. When atheists want to do volunteer work, they don't usually feel the need to seek out an "atheist" group--they join either explicitly religious groups like Habitat for Humanity, or a-religious groups like Doctors Without Borders or the Red Cross, and they just assume that they'll be working with people who have different beliefs from them, but that it's ok because they're all working toward a common goal.

Compare with religious people who can't even build a hospital without declaring its religious denomination.

They come together to destroy any system containing mention of a god or gods.

If atheists destroyed those systems, then those systems would be destroyed. Religious systems still exist. Ergo, atheists have not destroyed them.
 
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Blackwater Babe

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They come together to destroy any system containing mention of a god or gods.
Baloney. Some (IMHO most) athiests don't give a fat rat's about whether or not a system mentions a god or gods.

Slightly more are against systems that mention a particular god or gods and single out that god or gods' followers for special benefits... but most athiests, I think you'll find, simply couldn't give a pint of pelican's.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Modern atheists generally will subscribe to some variant of Enlightenment reliance on human rationality, a belief in progress and science and technology to bring that about. All religion is relegated to the realms of superstition or something similar.

Roughly correct. Secular humanists are the main example of this sort.

Morality is a matter of personal choice; values replace morals.

I'm not sure what you mean here.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Modern morality is about personal choice, not some divinely based set of rules is how many Moderns think. That is what I had in mind.

Okay, but I think that there are distinct limits to that personal choice in modern notions of morality. What had happened in the West, for instance in America, is that liberalism had shifted moral discourse from personal values to issues of social justice. However, there are definite limits on what sort of values may be rightly chosen. It's not like they can be just anything.

So, yes, personal choice does have a greater role (no cookie-cutter religion), but there are still rules or moral boundaries in place.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Johnnz

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Okay, but I think that there are distinct limits to that personal choice in modern notions of morality. What had happened in the West, for instance in America, is that liberalism had shifted moral discourse from personal values to issues of social justice. However, there are definite limits on what sort of values may be rightly chosen. It's not like they can be just anything.

So, yes, personal choice does have a greater role (no cookie-cutter religion), but there are still rules or moral boundaries in place.
eudaimonia,Mark

I agree with you, except I question on what basis a rule or moral principle is based. For a Christian that is rather straightforward - God. But take away a divine realm and things can get quite fuzzy.

Christians reckon that the boundaries people do accept (murder, rape, child abuse as examples) reflect moral values inherent in the created order of things i.e they are religious values. But non Christians sort of 'cheat' by failing to accept that basis and resort to various strategies, such as pragmatism to justify their moral boundaries.

John
NZ
 
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Eudaimonist

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Christians reckon that the boundaries people do accept (murder, rape, child abuse as examples) reflect moral values inherent in the created order of things i.e they are religious values. But non Christians sort of 'cheat' by failing to accept that basis and resort to various strategies, such as pragmatism to justify their moral boundaries.

I suppose they do, and I'm not a fan of pragmatism myself, but I don't see that as cheating any more than attempting to pin morality on a hypothetical "created order" is cheating. It's still morality with some sort of attempted justification. Religion is no less a "strategy" than anything else.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Shane Roach

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I agree with you, except I question on what basis a rule or moral principle is based. For a Christian that is rather straightforward - God. But take away a divine realm and things can get quite fuzzy.

What the Bible actually says, in opposition to what you say here, is that what God wants from us can be seen in the natural world. That's why when asked to defend a specific teaching in the Bible, Christians do it using what they perceive to be the negative outcomes attached to various behaviors.

As I mentioned on another thread, atheists then seem to attach some inherent negativity to these explanations -- as if to have them at all attached to a religion, god, or gods somehow undermines the non-religious reasoning underlying the religious doctrine.

The atheists themselves have no base beliefs at all though, so they just seem to sort of randomly take offense to this or that moral or ethical value without any underlying reasons, and when asked to explain themselves they argue that they should not be required to obey a religious tenet.

You also get a lot of screaming and crying about supposed bigotry.

Nazi Germany was operating under atheistic principles, and was about as bigoted as you can get. "Oh but not all atheists are Nazi's."

Yes yes... back to square 1. Not all atheists have ANY particular belief, but they all are of one voice in insisting that they need not work together with anyone else in their culture if there is even a hint of a whiff of some religious tinge to any specific moral or ethical standard they have suddenly decided is no longer worthy.
 
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Eudaimonist

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The atheists themselves have no base beliefs at all though, so they just seem to sort of randomly take offense to this or that moral or ethical value without any underlying reasons, and when asked to explain themselves they argue that they should not be required to obey a religious tenet.

Please stop with this slanderous nonsense. I have "base beliefs" and I don't take offense to anything randomly. If you ever see me taking offense to something, please ask me why instead of making blanket assumptions.

Nazi Germany was operating under atheistic principles, and was about as bigoted as you can get. "Oh but not all atheists are Nazi's."

More to the point, atheism isn't itself an ethical doctrine. One could say that theists who sacrificed virgins to their gods were operating under theistic principles, but how would that reflect on other theists who would shun such a thing?

Not all atheists have ANY particular belief, but they all are of one voice in insisting that they need not work together with anyone else in their culture if there is even a hint of a whiff of some religious tinge to any specific moral or ethical standard they have suddenly decided is no longer worthy.

I can't imagine why anyone should have to work with someone on a moral issue with which they disagree, but they certainly can work together regarding issues where they can agree. Most atheists are willing to do this, even if a rare few are not.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Gadarene

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What the Bible actually says, in opposition to what you say here, is that what God wants from us can be seen in the natural world. That's why when asked to defend a specific teaching in the Bible, Christians do it using what they perceive to be the negative outcomes attached to various behaviors.

As I mentioned on another thread, atheists then seem to attach some inherent negativity to these explanations -- as if to have them at all attached to a religion, god, or gods somehow undermines the non-religious reasoning underlying the religious doctrine.

Not necessarily. Most atheists are utilitarian also. It's just that for something like - for example - gay marriage - a good utilitarian argument for being AGAINST it cannot be made, and the perceived negative outcomes that Christians point to are either questionably not negative or have been debunked countless times already.

In addition, Christians are also prone to discarding the utilitarian argument and resorting to "well, God said it's bad, so it's bad" logic when the utilitarian argument fails them. In my opinion, that is why they have made such a shambles of the whole issue of gay rights and gay marriage - their attempts at utilitarian argument have failed, and they are left with an assertion backed by the "authority" of their unproven deity, which fewer and fewer people (quite rightly) do not kowtow to anymore.

I've no problem with religious people making an argument for something. It just has to make sense, and be backed up by something more solid than their personal readings of their religious texts.

The atheists themselves have no base beliefs at all though, so they just seem to sort of randomly take offense to this or that moral or ethical value without any underlying reasons, and when asked to explain themselves they argue that they should not be required to obey a religious tenet.

There's your tendency to overgeneralise letting you down again. You may want to quit while you're behind on that one.

For the n-th time, atheism isn't a base belief about anything other than the matter of the existence of deities. In my experience, atheists are generally utilitarian. Some explicitly acknowledge this (I do, as it's the best description of how I make moral decisions), some do not but appear to operate on such principles anyway.

You also get a lot of screaming and crying about supposed bigotry.

Nazi Germany was operating under atheistic principles, and was about as bigoted as you can get. "Oh but not all atheists are Nazi's."

Yes yes... back to square 1. Not all atheists have ANY particular belief, but they all are of one voice in insisting that they need not work together with anyone else in their culture if there is even a hint of a whiff of some religious tinge to any specific moral or ethical standard they have suddenly decided is no longer worthy.

It depends on the degree of cooperation involved and what precise beliefs are held by those attempting to cooperate.
 
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