Psalm3704 said in post 6237:
. . . if there is no trip to heaven, and 1 Thess 4:15-17 is the same as Matthew 24:29-31, than how did the elects get to heaven in Matthew 24:31?
Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).
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There are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The 1st heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the 2 witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).
In the 3rd heaven, there is currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.
Currently, the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.
The earth's 3rd heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can been explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's 3rd heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.
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Psalm3704 said in post 6238:
The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.
That's right.
But note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in the 3rd heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
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Also, note that while at the future point in time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the church will still be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's 1st stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It is near the end of this 1st stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).
After the 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).
The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16); and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials (Revelation 16) will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage. Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.
Psalm3704 said in post 6238:
The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).
Note that the 7 letters to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).
Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).
The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.
Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).
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Psalm3704 said in post 6263:
...as well as the doctrine of left behind: Matthew 22:14, Matthew 22:8 . . .
Regarding Matthew 22:14 and Matthew 22:8, note that they in no way require a pre-tribulation rapture. Also, in intervening verses, Matthew 22:11-13, the wedding garment represents the righteousness of believers (Revelation 19:8), which is conditional not only on their continued belief (Romans 3:22), but also on their continued doing of righteous deeds (1 John 3:7, James 2:24). Some believers will end up suffering the fate of Matthew 22:13 because of unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or unrepentant sinfulness (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
Psalm3704 said in post 6263:
...as well as the doctrine of left behind: Matthew 22:14, Matthew 22:8, Matthew 25:1-13 . . .
Regarding Matthew 25:1-13, the 10-virgins parable, note that it shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18.
Psalm3704 said in post 6263:
...as well as the doctrine of left behind: Matthew 22:14, Matthew 22:8, Matthew 25:1-13, Matthew 7:21-23, Rev 2:1-7, Rev 2:12-29, Rev 3:1-6, Rev 3:14-22.
Regarding Matthew 7:21-23 and the Revelation passages, note that they don't require a pre-tribulation rapture.
But Matthew 7:21-23 does show that both faith and obedience to God are required for believers to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). And there is no assurance that they will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).
Also, Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole (like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole). For Matthew 7:22 could refer to truly saved people, true believers in the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had truly repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and had truly performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be completely rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).
Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are saved, that they are believers in the gospel (Mark 16:17). People must be very careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.
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Psalm3704 said in post 6271:
There's no carcass mentioned in Matthew 24 because the church was raptured to heaven.
Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase [ptoma] is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Matthew 24:28 isn't referring to the rapture, but to a dead body being eaten by eagles (Job 39:30b, Revelation 19:21). In Matthew 24:28, the original Greek word (ptoma: G4430) translated as "carcase" is used to refer only to a dead body (e.g. Matthew 14:12, Mark 6:29, Mark 15:45, Revelation 11:8-9).
