Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Short Timer]

125 pages and we have solved absolutely nothing!

Yep, I agree with you, and do you think all these different doctrines/beliefs are being taught by the Holy Ghost.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice,

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words:


Does give you an idea of what the "Falling away" looks like.

 

[BABerean2]

125 pages and we have solved absolutely nothing!

Sure we have.

Dispensational Theology claims there must be a pretrib removal of the Church so that God can go back and have a do-over with the Israelites who have rejected His Son.

They also claim the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth at this time.

However, based on Hebrews chapter 8 God has already made a New Covenant with the Israelites like the Apostle Paul, through the ministry of Jesus. Heb. 8:6-8

The New Covenant would not be like the Old Covenant and God no longer considers the Old in effect because those to whom it was offered broke the covenant. Heb. 8:9

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a necessary step in salvation, through the New Covenant of Christ. Heb. 8:10

They cannot go back to the Old Covenant, because it is obsolete. Heb. 8:13

Therefore, the whole system of Dispensational Theology rests upon ignoring what is written in the Book of Hebrews or by claiming the text says something other than what is written in the text.

.

 

[iamlamad]

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(Satan attempted to kill the baby Jesus through Herod.)

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(Based on the 2nd Psalm this man-child is Christ.)

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.



Mat_2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Mat_2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

Mat_2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Mat_2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

Mat 2:21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.

Mat 2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

Mat 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Revelation chapter 12 begins with a history of the Church.
Remember that the judgment of the dead already happened at Rev. 11:18.
Therefore, chapter 12 is retelling the story from another perspective.

God try, but completely wrong!

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Keep in mind, the correct answer here will parallel the 42 months of trampling, the 1260 days of testifying, the time, times and half of time of protection, and the 42 months of authority. You can't begin to explain all these back in history!

 

[iamlamad]

Sure we have.

Dispensational Theology claims there must be a pretrib removal of the Church so that God can go back and have a do-over with the Israelites who have rejected His Son.

They also claim the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth at this time.

However, based on Hebrews chapter 8 God has already made a New Covenant with the Israelites like the Apostle Paul, through the ministry of Jesus. Heb. 8:6-8

The New Covenant would not be like the Old Covenant and God no longer considers the Old in effect because those to whom it was offered broke the covenant. Heb. 8:9

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a necessary step in salvation, through the New Covenant of Christ. Heb. 8:10

They cannot go back to the Old Covenant, because it is obsolete. Heb. 8:13

Therefore, the whole system of Dispensational Theology rests upon ignoring what is written in the Book of Hebrews or by claiming the text says something other than what is written in the text.

.

You are sure going to have a lot of hats to eat when we get to the millennial reign and Jesus begins animal sacrifices!!!!!!!
Did you tear the last few chapters of Ezekiel out of your bible?

 

[iamlamad]

Yep, I agree with you, and do you think all these different doctrines/beliefs are being taught by the Holy Ghost.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice,

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words:


Does give you an idea of what the "Falling away" looks like.

Of course most of what we read here is human reasoning. "My sheep here my voice!" Exactly!

 

[iamlamad]

Call it what you want, but fact is, every character present in the first coming is the same characters present in the second coming,

and that is no problem to prove.

Then please take the time to explain every part here so we can understand it.

Mat_17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

John the Baptist fulfilled that promise almost 2,000 years ago.

They do not go back under the Law. The Law is finished.

If you want to see one of the two witnesses, look in the mirror.




Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(Paul uses the olive tree as an example of faithful Israel. The wild olive branches of the Gentiles were grafted in among the cultivated olive tree branches. Two trees grafted together.)

Jer_5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.
(Those that reject the Gospel from your mouth will burn.)

.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

John the Baptist fulfilled this by His coming in the Spirit of Elijah long ago. So if Elijah is one of the two prophets, he will not have to show up before the 6th seal that begins the week. He could show up in chapter 11 right where John saw them.

 

[BABerean2]

You can't begin to explain all these back in history! googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1431698694306-1'); });

Sure we can if we are willing to look at a history book.

Even John Darby admitted that Luke 21:24 was about the siege of 70 AD.



A parallel study of the three Gospel accounts reveals the Abomination of Desolation.


During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka.


Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. We know Luke 21:20 is related to Matthew 24:15, because the same warning to flee is found in the next verse.


We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.


While He was being taken to the Cross, Jesus warned the women who were weeping for him about what was to come. During this warning He makes a reference similar to that found in Matthew 24:19, about nursing mothers. This warning is also specifically made to these women and their children.


During the siege of 70 AD some women ate their own children, due to the lack of food during the siege.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.


Almost all scholars agree that Luke 21:24 is a specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.


Therefore, this also provides evidence that the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse, was part of the events of 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

.

 

[Psalm3704]

That's right, if by "heaven" you mean the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b). For note that no scripture requires believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Oh really? Apparently the bible disagree with you. By these scriptures, you must think heaven and the throne room of God is here on earth. And it's a pre tribulation rapture as the church was caught up into the throne room of God before God judges the world: Hebrews 12:26.

Hebrews 12:22-29 NKJV
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Revelation 7:13-17 NKJV
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”​

Note that Matthew 19:16-19 doesn't say that Christians after the Cross have to keep any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's ministration of death, engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Romans 7:6).

Matthew 19:17-19 NKJV
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,' and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”​

Does verse 17 not say keep the commandments? Need glasses?

2 Corinthians 3:16-18 and Romans 7:6 are not about not keeping the Mosaic Law. Read them below, Romans 7:6 is about works of the law, not the Mosaic Law. Do you not know the differences between the two?

Start off by asking your self this question. What are the works of the law Paul spoke of that caused people to sin. "How can the law of Moses cause people to sin when these commandments were filled with a bunch of "thou shall not do this, thou shall not do that?" How do you sin when thou shall not steal, thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not kill, thou shall not covet, thou shall have not other god before me, thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor?"

Bible2, how does the 10 commandment cause people to sin if these commandments were design to get people to stop sinning? Know the answer? It's because Paul was not preaching against the Mosaic Law. He never did. In fact, he, all the disciples and Jesus preached that believers must continue to observe all the old commandments along with the new commandment from Christ.

Bible2, what works was Paul talking about that does not save? No, it's not the 10 commandments, it's the works of the law. There's a difference between those two and you need to understand what it is because Christ said in Matthew 19:17 if you want life, do the commandments.

2 Corinthians 3:16-18 NKJV
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Romans 7:4-6 NKJV
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.​

Bible2, what are examples of works of the law Paul spoke of that does not lead to salvation?

If you don't know, I highly suggest you study salvation instead of the spending too much time on the timing of the rapture before Christ return.

Paul never told us to stop following the Mosaic Law, in fact he told us to continue in them.

Romans 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Romans 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”

Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Ephesians 6:2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:​

===============================​

Bible2, read what it said. What commandment in the Mosaic Law does it say "thou shall commit circumcision?" There is none! Know why? It's because Paul's references against works does not apply to the Mosaic Law. He was addressing works of the law involving the law of the flesh. There's a difference and unless you understand the two, you can through all you know about salvation out the window.

Galatians 5:2-4 NKJV
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.​

Romans 2:25-27 NKJV
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?

Romans 7:22-25 NKJV
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Bible2, do you know what those scriptures above are saying about you? It's saying you're following the wrong law. You think we don't need to keep the 10 commandments. Paul is telling you you're wrong because he's talking about another law: the works involved in works of the law does not save and not what we have to keep. Bottom line,

Law of the flesh vs Law of Moses.​

KNOW THE DIFFERENCE!​

.

 

[Psalm3704]

Sure we can if we are willing to look at a history book.

Even John Darby admitted that Luke 21:24 was about the siege of 70 AD.

BAB2, this means nothing to any of us because we don't follow John Darby around here except you. {staff edit}









.

 

[Psalm3704]

Bible2,

Are you still wondering about the law of the flesh in the OT and the works of the law that does not contribute to salvation Paul spoke of? Here's one hint. No matter how many times you cut yourself or completely cut it off, your works does not justify salvation under this law.

Genesis 17:10-11 NKJV
10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.










.​

 

[iamlamad]

Sure we can if we are willing to look at a history book.

Even John Darby admitted that Luke 21:24 was about the siege of 70 AD.



A parallel study of the three Gospel accounts reveals the Abomination of Desolation.


During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka.


Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. We know Luke 21:20 is related to Matthew 24:15, because the same warning to flee is found in the next verse.


We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.


While He was being taken to the Cross, Jesus warned the women who were weeping for him about what was to come. During this warning He makes a reference similar to that found in Matthew 24:19, about nursing mothers. This warning is also specifically made to these women and their children.


During the siege of 70 AD some women ate their own children, due to the lack of food during the siege.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.


Almost all scholars agree that Luke 21:24 is a specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.


Therefore, this also provides evidence that the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse, was part of the events of 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

.

I can see I did not give you enough credit of stretching and twisting. Do you imagine Jesus gave three discourses; one for Matthew, one for Mark and one for Luke? Of course He did not. He gave ONE discourse and three people wrote. When we compare them all, they are about the FUTURE, not about the past. God however, knowing the future, knew that Christians would be trapped in Jerusalem so had Luke write as he did so Christians would escape. Chances are about 100% that in the future, the same thing will happen.

But your head will be buried so far in history you will miss it all....until they come to give you the mark, and ask you to worship their image. Will you tell them, "hey! You are suppose to be in 70 AD, not today!"

 

[dad]

Oh really? Apparently the bible disagree with you. By these scriptures, you must think heaven and the throne room of God is here on earth. And it's a pre tribulation rapture as the church was caught up into the throne room of God before God judges the world: Hebrews 12:26.

Hebrews 12:22-29 NKJV
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven,​

.

Being registered in heaven does not mean we are there in the flesh. It is a bit like being registered for a flight in a month...that doesn't mean we are on the plane or at the destination today.

 

[Psalm3704]

Being registered in heaven does not mean we are there in the flesh. It is a bit like being registered for a flight in a month...that doesn't mean we are on the plane or at the destination today.

Hebrews 12:22-29 NKJV
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven,​

See the first 4 words in Hebrews 12:22: But you have come? That's a physical presence, not a registration.

Being registered in heaven means your name is written in the book of life. The firstborn of the church are those who will be rapture as their names are already in the book. This has nothing to do with purchasing some advance airline ticket for a flight.









.

 

[dad]

Hebrews 12:22-29 NKJV
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven,​

See the first 4 words in Hebrews 12:22: But you have come? That's a physical presence, not a registration.

Nope. Because when we die then will be be present with the Lord! Not now. He went to prepare a place so that we could be where He is! That is after He comes back to get us.

Being registered in heaven means your name is written in the book of life. The firstborn of the church are those who will be rapture as their names are already in the book. This has nothing to do with purchasing some advance airline ticket for a flight.
.

False. We are no more in the heaven of heavens in the flesh now, than a person with a reservation for a Bahama vacation in a month is in the Bahamas now.

I kid you not.[/QUOTE]

 

[Psalm3704]

Nope. Because when we die then will be be present with the Lord! Not now. He went to prepare a place so that we could be where He is! That is after He comes back to get us.

Are you for real? Hebrews 12:22-29 is the rapture. A pre-trib rapture. What does verse 26 say?

False. We are no more in the heaven of heavens in the flesh now, than a person with a reservation for a Bahama vacation in a month is in the Bahamas now.

I kid you not.

It's not false. You're just not reading anything correctly. What does Hebrews 12:26 say?

Being registered in heaven does not mean we are there in the flesh. It is a bit like being registered for a flight in a month...that doesn't mean we are on the plane or at the destination today.

Let's go back to this. This has nothing to do with an airline registration. It's just figurative for having one's name written in the book of life some translations uses. Do you see a Bahamas vacation in any of those translations? LOL!

• American Standard Version
  Hebrews 12:23 (ASV) to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
  
  
• The Bible in Basic English
  Hebrews 12:23 (BBE) To the great meeting and church of the first of those who are named in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of good men made complete,
  
  
• Common English Bible
  Hebrews 12:23 (CEB) to the assembly of God's firstborn children who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous who have been made perfect,
  
  
• Common English Bible w/ Apocrypha
  Hebrews 12:23 (CEBA) to the assembly of God's firstborn children who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous who have been made perfect,
  
  
• The Complete Jewish Bible
  Hebrews 12:23 (CJB) to a community of the firstborn whose names have been recorded in heaven; to a Judge who is God of everyone; to spirits of righteous people who have been brought to the goal;
  
  
• Holman Christian Standard Bible
  Hebrews 12:23 (CSB) to the assembly of the firstborn whose names have been written in heaven, to God who is the judge of all, to the spirits of righteous people made perfect,
  
  
• The Darby Translation
  Hebrews 12:23 (DBY) the universal gathering; and to [the] assembly of the firstborn [who are] registered in heaven; and to God, judge of all; and to [the] spirits of just [men] made perfect;
  
  
• English Standard Version
  Hebrews 12:23 (ESV) and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
  
  
• Good News Translation
  Hebrews 12:23 (GNT) You have come to the joyful gathering of God's first-born, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, who is the judge of all people, and to the spirits of good people made perfect.
  
  
• Good News Translation w/ Apocrypha
  Hebrews 12:23 (GNTA) You have come to the joyful gathering of God's first-born, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, who is the judge of all people, and to the spirits of good people made perfect.
  
  
• GOD'S WORD Translation
  Hebrews 12:23 (GW) and to the assembly of God's firstborn children (whose names are written in heaven). You have come to a judge (the God of all people) and to the spirits of people who have God's approval and have gained eternal life.
  
  
• Hebrew Names Version
  Hebrews 12:23 (HNV) to the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
  
  
• Jubilee Bible 2000
  Hebrews 12:23 (JUB) to the congregation of the called out ones of the firstborn, who are registered in the heavens and to God the Judge of all and to the spirits of just men made perfect
  
  
• King James Version
  Hebrews 12:23 (KJV) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect ,
  
  
• King James Version w/ Apocrypha
  Hebrews 12:23 (KJVA) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect ,
  
  
• Lexham English Bible
  Hebrews 12:23 (LEB) and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous [people] made perfect,
  
  
• The Message Bible
  Hebrews 12:23 (MSG) and Christian citizens. It is the city where God is Judge, with judgments that make us just.
  
  
• New American Standard Bible
  Hebrews 12:23 (NAS) to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
  
  
• New Century Version
  Hebrews 12:23 (NCV) You have come to the meeting of God's firstbornn children whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all people, and to the spirits of good people who have been made perfect.
  
  
• New International Reader's Version
  Hebrews 12:23 (NIRV) You have come to the church of God's people. God's first and only Son is over all things. God's people share in what belongs to his Son. Their names are written in heaven. You have come to God. He is the judge of all people. You have come to the spirits of godly people who have been made perfect.
  
  
• New International Version
  Hebrews 12:23 (NIV) to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
  
  
• New King James Version
  Hebrews 12:23 (NKJV) to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
  
  
• New Living Translation
  Hebrews 12:23 (NLT) You have come to the assembly of God’s firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect.
  
  
• New Revised Standard
  Hebrews 12:23 (NRS) and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
  
  
• New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha
  Hebrews 12:23 (NRSA) and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
  
  
• Orthodox Jewish Bible
  Yehudim in Moshiach 12:23 (OJB) And to the Kehillat HaBechorim who are inscribed in Shomayim and to Hashem, the Shofet HaKol, and to the ruchot (spirits) of the tzaddikim made shleimim,
  
  
• Douay-Rhiems Catholic Bible
  Hebrews 12:23 (RHE) And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,
  
  
• Revised Standard Version
  Hebrews 12:23 (RSV) and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
  
  
• Revised Standard Version w/ Apocrypha
  Hebrews 12:23 (RSVA) and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
  
  
• SBL Greek New Testament
  Hebrews 12:23 (SBLG) καὶ ἐκκλησίᾳ πρωτοτόκων ἀπογεγραμμένων ἐν οὐρανοῖς, καὶ κριτῇ θεῷ πάντων, καὶ πνεύμασι δικαίων τετελειωμένων,
  
  
• Third Millennium Bible
  Hebrews 12:23 (TMB) to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
  
  
• Third Millennium Bible w/ Apocrypha
  Hebrews 12:23 (TMBA) to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
  
  
• Today's New International Version
  Hebrews 12:23 (TNIV) to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
  
  
• Tyndale
  Hebrews 12:23 (TYN) and vnto the congregacion of ye fyrst borne sonnes which are writte in heven and to God the iudge of all and to the spretes of iust and parfecte men
  
  
• The Webster Bible
  Hebrews 12:23 (WBT) To the general assembly and church of the first-born, who are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
  
  
• World English Bible
  Hebrews 12:23 (WEB) to the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
  
  
• Weymouth New Testament
  Hebrews 12:23 (WNT) to the great festal gathering and Church of the first-born, whose names are recorded in Heaven, and to a Judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
  
  
• Wycliffe
  Hebrews 12:23 (WYC) and to the church of the first men, which be written in heavens, and to God, doomsman of all, and to the spirit of just perfect men [and to the spirits of just perfect men],
  
  
• Young's Literal Translation
  Hebrews 12:23 (YLT) to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect,

Now if there's not one translation here you can understand, than what can I tell you? Need more translations?



By the way, is this what you're looking for? Whatta deal!

http://myallinclusivedeals.com/








.

 

[Bible2+]

Short Timer said in post 2472:

Here's the problem with your "popping up in the air and right back down",

"Everything" that occurs in scripture has a "Reason" or "Explanation" for it's occurrence.

There's no "Explanation" given as to "WHY" this popping occurs.

Note that it's not a popping, but a catching up and a gathering together to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That is, the rapture will take believers straight up into the air wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the air, all around the globe. So then they need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the air where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the air above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get believers from all around the world into one place above Jerusalem, to meet with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the air, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Short Timer said in post 2472:

The Rapture occurs "BEFORE" the second coming and it occurs "BECAUSE"

it's the "Fulness of the Gentiles" and the end of the "Grace period" so that the "Law" (and prophet) can return.

Regarding the "Fulness of the Gentiles":

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

Short Timer said in post 2472:

The Rapture occurs "BEFORE" the second coming and it occurs "BECAUSE"

it's the "Fulness of the Gentiles" and the end of the "Grace period" so that the "Law" (and prophet) can return.

Regarding "the end of the Grace period", note that no scripture refers to any such thing, just as no scripture refers to a return to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

For with regard to the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

Short Timer said in post 2472:

it's the "Many" who have the covenant "By faith"..."Confirmed" with them for One week, the trib week.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week . . .

Regarding Daniel 9:27, note that back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

Short Timer said in post 2472:

It's Jesus reaping "before" the Angels Reap.

Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning obedient believers can have the Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.

-

Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a sword, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17).

Short Timer said in post 2472:

It's the Comforter/Holy Ghost taken out of the way so the AC can be the supreme power on earth.

Note that the restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). Also, Mark 13:11b expressly shows that the Holy Spirit will still be with believers during the future tribulation.

Short Timer said in post 2472:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Note that it says "should", not "will necessarily".

Similarly, the translation of the next verse, John 3:16, (which is sometimes quoted) as "whoever believes in him shall not perish" is a mistranslation of the original Greek, in which the verb is in the subjunctive mood. This means it is referring to a conditional action. So it should be translated as "may not perish". Other, related verses show that believers ultimately retaining their salvation is conditional on their continued belief to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 6:4-8, Colossians 1:23), their continued good works to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30), and their continued repentance to the end from every sin they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

The way to do Christian theology isn't to base it on what an unqualified verse says to Christians, but on what the entire Bible says to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4). A verse applicable to Christians in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses (also applicable to Christians) elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

*******

Short Timer said in post 2487:

Then and only then can power be on the side of the Oppressor to "prevail" over the saints . . .

Revelation 13:7-10 refers to the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), being allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Short Timer said in post 2487:

Then and only then can power be on the side of the Oppressor to "prevail" over the saints, he can't do that against the church/body of Christ.

Regarding "he can't do that against the church", are you thinking of Matthew 16:18?

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 16:18 isn't contradicting that evil forces can prevail against the church physically. For just as Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10), so evil forces will physically overcome the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will prevail physically against believers (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Instead, Matthew 16:18 meant that the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the church (1 Peter 2:4-10).

That is, Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against Jesus (Psalms 107:16), when, after his resurrection, he liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament saints from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

 

[Bible2+]

iamlamad said in post 2491:

Please explain who those are [were] who will flee [or fled] into the wilderness and get protected by God for 3 1/2 years until Jesus comes to rescue them.

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

*******

iamlamad said in post 2500:

Jesus chose also to show John what the dragon DID (history lesson) when Jesus was born: how he tried to murder Jesus as a child.

Actually, in Revelation 12:5 the "man child" isn't Jesus. For Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up physically to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

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iamlamad said in post 2506:

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

John the Baptist fulfilled this by His coming in the Spirit of Elijah long ago.

That's right.

The coming of Elijah referred to in Malachi 4:5-6 was fulfilled by the coming of John the Baptist in the spirit and power of Elijah (Luke 1:17).

iamlamad said in post 2506:

So if Elijah is one of the two prophets, he will not have to show up before the 6th seal that begins the week. He could show up in chapter 11 right where John saw them.

That's right.

For Matthew 17:10-13 can be understood as referring to 2 different comings of Elijah, the first being John the Baptist's coming "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17, Matthew 17:12-13), and the 2nd being a still-future, physical coming-back of Elijah himself, when he will restore all things (Matthew 17:11), in the sense of restoring all true doctrine, i.e. all true interpretation of the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16), to the church. This still-future, physical coming-back of Elijah himself could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, when Elijah could come back physically from heaven as one of the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-12).

That is, in the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like, for example, how Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The 2 witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post 2507:

Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

That's right.

For regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

BABerean2 said in post 2507:

Almost all scholars agree that Luke 21:24 is a specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Note that Luke 21:24 wasn't fulfilled by Titus's armies in 70 AD, for it refers to the same, future treading down underfoot (i.e. not merely an outside siege) of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal (and never fulfilled) 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

That is, the treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

--

Ezekiel 21:27a could include the meaning that Jerusalem (Ezekiel 21:22) must be overturned, in the sense of completely destroyed, 3 separate times: once in 586 BC (by the Babylonians), then again in 70 AD (by the Romans), and then again at some point in our future (by the Antichrist), right before Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Ezekiel 21:27b).

Also, compare the idea of some people that Amos 9:15 applies to the reestablishment of Israel in 1948 AD. In fact, Amos 9:15 could refer to what will happen only at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11). For Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the taking of the northern kingdom of Israel into captivity (Amos 8:14, Amos 5:27) by the Assyrians in 722 BC. And so Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 586 BC. But Amos 9:14-15 didn't apply to the post-Babylonian-Captivity restoration of the Jews to their land in 538 BC, for that restoration was subsequently destroyed by a Roman-empire army in 70 AD. So Amos 9:14-15 doesn't necessarily apply to the subsequent restoration of the Jews to their land in 1948 AD either. This restoration could be destroyed by the Baathists in a future war (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. Jesus will restore the Davidic kingdom of Israel (Luke 1:32b-33, Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11) at his 2nd coming (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

That is, Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

 

[Bible2+]

Psalm3704 said in post 2508:

Hebrews 12:22-29 NKJV
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem . . .

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem . . .

Note that Hebrews 12:22 says "ye are come", not "ye will come" in a future, pre-trib rapture.

For Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer figuratively to our present salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).

Psalm3704 said in post 2508:

Revelation 7:13-17 NKJV
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God,

Note that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Psalm3704 said in post 2508:

. . . how does the 10 commandment cause people to sin if these commandments were design to get people to stop sinning?

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet [which is one of the 10 commandments: Exodus 20:17].
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Believers can't sin without repentance and expect to be saved in the end (Hebrews 10:26-29). But they can never keep from sinning by trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which includes the letter of the 10 commandments. For it will only cause them to sin more (Romans 7:7-11, Romans 6:14). Instead, by the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16, Romans 8:13), believers keep the New Covenant law of Jesus (Galatians 6:2, John 14:15, Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 8:6-13, Matthew 26:28), which forbids all manner of sin to those who want to be saved in the end (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).

Psalm3704 said in post 2508:

2 Corinthians 3:16-18 NKJV
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away . . .

Amen.

For 2 Corinthians 3:6-18 means all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For Paul begins the passage by saying God has made "us" ministers "not of the letter" (2 Corinthians 3:6). By saying "us", Paul is including Jewish believers, for Paul is a Jew (Acts 22:3). And by saying "ministers" (Greek: "diakonos", G1249), Paul means "servants" (cf. Romans 16:1), so that in 2 Corinthians 3:6, Paul is saying the same thing as in Romans 7:6, where he says "we" (i.e. including Jewish believers) have been "delivered" from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, so that "we" should serve "not in the oldness of the letter". Paul continues on in 2 Corinthians 3:6-18 to show that all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, "for the letter killeth" (2 Corinthians 3:6). The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which includes the letter of the 10 commandments, "written and engraven in stones" (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8) was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, including the letter of the 10 commandments, has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it is still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), while the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8,9b) which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even Christians into thinking they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which includes the letter of the 10 commandments, in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any believers are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law thinking they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus will profit them nothing; they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

Psalm3704 said in post 2508:

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Amen.

For 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 refers to physical circumcision, which under the New Covenant isn't required of believers, whether Jews or Gentiles (Galatians 5:6). There is also the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29), which is required of believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, if they are to attain ultimate salvation (Romans 6:3-8, Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Galatians 3:27).

Also, in 1 Corinthians 7:19, the "commandments of God" aren't the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which includes the letter of the 10 commandments. For in 1 Corinthians 7:19, the "commandments of God" don't include physical circumcision, which was part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Exodus 12:48).

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Psalm3704 said in post 2516:

Hebrews 12:22-29 is the rapture. A pre-trib rapture. What does verse 26 say?

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Note that Hebrews 12:26b can refer to an event which is still in our future, while Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer to an event which has already been fulfilled (in a figurative, spiritual sense).

 

[Short Timer]

Then please take the time to explain every part here so we can understand it.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

John the Baptist fulfilled this by His coming in the Spirit of Elijah long ago. So if Elijah is one of the two prophets, he will not have to show up before the 6th seal that begins the week. He could show up in chapter 11 right where John saw them.

Israel was expecting the same "physical Elijah" that rode the chariot to heaven, not his spirit in another body.

During the trib the physical Elijah will return.

God appeared in Melchisedec, Angel of the Lord and God, in the OT, then in the body Mary gave birth too that we call Jesus,
But some people don't believe a spirit can appear in different bodies/physical forms.

John was asked if he was Elijah, (that went to heaven in the chariot) he said no,

If Jesus had been asked if he was the God who sat on the throne, he would have said no,

formed in the fashion of a "man", he would have to be "Transfigured" into God first, which will occur at the GWT.

To look on God, would be instance death, but we can look at Jesus.

Where most people have a problem with scripture is understanding that Jesus/church is a "Spiritual Kingdom",

while God/Israel is a "Physical Kingdom".

This is one reason without physical signs and wonders, Jews won't believe,

but the church believes "By Faith", without physical evidence seen by the natural eye but evidence seen by the "Spiritual eye" once saved.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Just as people had a problem discerning who Jesus/John/Judas actually were, "In Spirit/Spiritually",

They have a problem discerning that these same people are coming back in the "Physical Realm".

Israel wants signs and wonders, they are going to get them, both from the two witnesses and the false Prophet,
but God is going to require a "sign" from them as well,

"Show me a "Sign" you're willing to die for salvation same as I died for your salvation, literally crucify your ol body of sin".

And it's the same thing he says to the church, only under Grace from the law, we don't have to literally die, which the law requires, under the law.

People argue about the ID of the Two witnesses, but the two witnesses appeared with Jesus when he was transfigured, Moses (law) and Elijah (Prophet) and there is only "Two".

Having "Spiritual vision" is the only way you can "SEE" both the "Spiritual Kingdom of the Church" and the "Literal Kingdom of Israel", both during the trib and the MK.