Why are we here?

[gord44]

Already read it friend!

 

[Zoness]

First off: The Bible talks about an eternal flame which really means “Nothing can put it out”, but does not mean it could not go out over time and everything that goes into this flame will eventually be burned up. Those that go to hell do not have an eternal life even in hell.

If a person repeatedly refuses God’s Love to the point that person will never accept God’s Love (and God would be the one to know this) than that person would not be happy in heaven where there is a huge Love Feast going on (but that “Love” is only Godly type Love (unselfish type Love).

A person that refuses to fulfill His/her main earthly objective takes on a much lesser objective of helping those that are still willing to fulfill their objective and they might do so. That “help” includes their going to hell.

Sounds surprisingly Orthodox minus the annihilationism bits which I suspect is becoming more mainstream nowadays anyways. So I'm curious what "refusing God's love means", exactly. Many would say its obeying the Bible as much as possible, others disagree. Could you elaborate a bit more?

 

[smaneck]

What I find interesting about NDE's is that they almost always reflect the beliefs of the one having the experience.

Can't say one way or the other, but I do know someone who had their faith renewed by another person's NDE. She was Jewish doctor who had gone to work in the Cambodian refugee camps where she had encountered so much suffering she lost her faith. She came back to the US working as a pediatrician and found she just couldn't cope with all these mothers obsessing about their kids colds and fevers. But one day she had a young patient come into her office who was said to have had an NDE and seen God. She asked the child, "What was God like, was He happy." "No", said the child, "He was angry, and very, very sad."

This doctor told me she regained her faith that day.

 

[smaneck]

I like your observation. I would also add that man being created to enjoy Him doesn't reduce God to some narcissistic being with a burning desire to be worshipped or a dysfunctional father figure who sends people to Hell for not doing so.

I recall St. Augustine said something to the effect that we are made to enjoy God and use the world, but instead we enjoy the world and use God.

 

[smaneck]

The Baha'i Faith states our purpose here is twofold:

• As individuals, to acquire the spiritual virtues we'll need both now and in the Next Life.
• In aggregate, to carry forward an ever-advancing, spiritually-based civilization.

It might interest you do know that the term translated as "to bring about an ever-advancing civilization" is islah-i alam lit. the Betterment of the World. It is the Arabic equivalent of the Hebrew concept of Tikkun Olam.

 

[smaneck]

A person that refuses to fulfill His/her main earthly objective takes on a much lesser objective of helping those that are still willing to fulfill their objective and they might do so. That “help” includes their going to hell. [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

Uh, and this helps them how?

 

[smaneck]

Sounds surprisingly Orthodox minus the annihilationism bits which I suspect is becoming more mainstream nowadays anyways. So I'm curious what "refusing God's love means", exactly.

In my experience evangelicals take it to mean believing whatever they believe.

 

[bling]

Uh, and this helps them how?

It is truly unfortunate, but some people do need the real “threat” of hell in order to hasten their decision to accept God’s help. Some might think Love should motivate the unbelieving sinner, but the unbeliever first has to accept God’s Love to have Godly type Love and we are talking about the carnal human motivations to accept God’s Love. God cannot threaten and lie about the threat (it has to be real, so some will have to go there). That a huge price to pay for some to accept God’s Love, but look at the price God and Christ were willing to pay?

 

[bling]

Sounds surprisingly Orthodox minus the annihilationism bits which I suspect is becoming more mainstream nowadays anyways. So I'm curious what "refusing God's love means", exactly. Many would say its obeying the Bible as much as possible, others disagree. Could you elaborate a bit more?

We refuse God’s Love in the form of refusing God’s help mainly refusing to allow God to lift the burden in our conscious from past decisions that have hurt others (sin). It takes humility to ask for help.

 

[smaneck]

It is truly unfortunate, but some people do need the real “threat” of hell in order to hasten their decision to accept God’s help.

Fear is the opposite of faith. I don't see how it can create faith.

Some might think Love should motivate the unbelieving sinner, but the unbeliever first has to accept God’s Love to have Godly type Love and we are talking about the carnal human motivations to accept God’s Love.

How can anyone accept love from someone who one has been led to believe is a monster who will burn you eternally? Much less how can you love him?

 

[bling]

Fear is the opposite of faith. I don't see how it can create faith.

Jesus tells us “Love drives out fear” so faith is not the opposite of fear.

The hell bound nonbeliever has no reason to “Love” God and does not have Godly type Love, yet.

Fear does become an incentive to trusting your faith in a benevolent Creator.

If you have no “fear” of things getting even worse than they are, why trust in a benevolent Creator?
Does there need to be good reason to humble yourself to the point of trusting in a benevolent creator?

How can anyone accept love from someone who one has been led to believe is a monster who will burn you eternally? Much less how can you love him?

First off: As I explained before the Bible does not teach hell is eternal punishment.

This “Monster” does not want or desire that you go to annihilation in hell. God wants you to be happy in heaven, but if you do not want or like charitable type Love, than you will not be happy in heaven where there is only unselfish charitable Love. You can still be of some benefit to those that are still deciding to accept or reject God’s charitable offer.

In some ways it was “monstrous” for God to allow Christ to go to the cross even though Christ was willing to go. God quenched his own desire for Christ and showed sacrificially Love for us, enough to allow Christ to be tortured, humiliated, deserted and murdered to help us (this was not done to solve some problem God had).

Love can be measured by the degree of sacrifice one is willing to make for another.

 

[BruceDLimber]

How can anyone accept love from someone who one has been led to believe is a monster who will burn you eternally? Much less how can you love him?

Please note that the Baha'i scriptures teach no such thing!!

Indeed, they state that not only is hell NOT eternal but that God, in His infinite Love and Mercy for us, assists us eventually to draw spiritually near to Him (the definition of Heaven). I quote:

"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God.... Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.

"Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state.... There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.

"Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world."
―Some Answered Questions, p. 274.