Which Protestant Body...

[GregConstantine]

The Church embodies the Truth, and the Truth can never oppose itself with "many" truths for there is only one Truth. Since the Truth is whole, the Church cannot be sliced and diced into competing denominations. A differing doctrinal confession does not create another "Church," it creates another denomination.

 

[CelticRebel]

Make up your own Christianity definitely isn't historical.

That is not true, and it is insulting to other faithful Christians.

"One and Only True Church" claim that turns me away."

That's because you view the Church as a human institution. But, if you accept that it isn't such, but the divine theanthropic (God/Man) Body of Christ, then that claim will make perfect sense and won't be so offensive. After all, there's only one Christ.

I do not view the church as a human institution. The church is like a gem with two facets; it is local and visible, and it is also the Body and Bride of Christ, consisting of all believers alive now and who have ever lived. In the NT, there was no hierarchical church body. There was an assembly -- the original name for a church -- in different locales, the church at Ephesus, the church at Corinth, and so on. Each local church is a true church to the degree and extent that it contains believers, and adheres to apostolic teaching.

 

[CelticRebel]

I'll say this: I have learned a lot from these discussions, and some of what I have learned is about myself. I have learned that no matter how much I agree with the Orthodox position on the central and most important doctrines of the atonement, the resurrection, justification, and original sin, I just cannot turn a blind eye to those areas in which I disagree.

Also, about any group claiming to be the one true church: This in effect sees other Christians as somehow second-class Christians; it is prejudicial and exclusionary. This is not what God is or how He views any Christian. Of that I am convinced. Yes, error, or what we perceive to be error, should be opposed. I oppose Calvinism on several forums. But I also recognize that I don't have all the truth, and that my views are not infallible. I am able to recognize a spirit which is not of God. But as I remember and believe, just as Paul said, we all see through a glass, darkly. I cannot make any Christian somehow less than me simply because he/she doesn't believe as I do.

 

[GregConstantine]

With all due respect, that is a ridiculous reason to reject the true teachings of Orthodoxy. You know what is in heart of every man and woman that you know that they are harboring secret thoughts of exclusion and treating others as second class citizens because they believe that there is one true Church? Please provide the evidence. I know for a fact that Orthodox Christians give their time, money, and man power to engage in humanitarian assistance throughout the world for anyone, regardless of their background. I know of many individual Orthodox Christians who are loving to everyone, regardless of their background.

BTW, do you believe that Christ is the only way to God? If you do, isn't that being exclusionary, prejudicial, and treating others as second class?

Those who follow other faiths and traditions will be the first to tell you it is.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You were paraphrasing a famous comment attributed to him, but that aside, we've all--EO, RC, myself--acknowledged that unity in essentials is important but unity in every last little non-essential is not.

There's hardly a Christian other than a member of some extreme sect that does not understand the matter this way, so we here really ought not start in with accusing Christians churches other than our own of disagreeing with us on non-essentials.

well, I did not know that was attributed to him. that being said, no dogma is non essential. so we are not talking about non essentials. folks who follow sola Scriptura don't agree on dogma, which is the issue. if baptism is for salvation, then it is imperative to do so. it is not imperitive for Missouri Synod Lutherans who do it, and at the same time non essential for Quakers who don't. it either is or it isn't. and both groups follow sola Scriptura.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Some can only mean one thing. I believe "The Word was God" is one of these. Can't get clearer than that.

talk to a Oneness Pentecostal or a Mormon.

 

[CelticRebel]

With all due respect, that is a ridiculous reason to reject the true teachings of Orthodoxy. You know what is in heart of every man and woman that you know that they are harboring secret thoughts of exclusion and treating others as second class citizens because they believe that there is one true Church? Please provide the evidence. I know for a fact that Orthodox Christians give their time, money, and man power to engage in humanitarian assistance throughout the world for anyone, regardless of their background. I know of many individual Orthodox Christians who are loving to everyone, regardless of their background.

BTW, do you believe that Christ is the only way to God? If you do, isn't that being exclusionary, prejudicial, and treating others as second class?

Those who follow other faiths and traditions will be the first to tell you it is.

I am saying the effect of holding that any group is "the one true church" is to put everyone else outside of the church, to make their churches less than "the one true church". Another effect is to exclude faithful Christians from participation in the Lord's Supper. I'll guarantee you when we all meet in heaven, no one will be excluded from that banquet.

I am not saying that what you wrote in the part I highlighted is not true.

We are talking about Christians here. So, what do you call Christians who are not members of your "one true church"?

 

[ArmyMatt]

we call them believers that are outside of the Church, but just because that is where they are now, that does not mean that is where they will end up. there will be many Protestants, pagans, Catholics, Muslims, etc who when they see Christ, they will realize He was what they were always after and worship Him. for many that is when they will become Orthodox and join the Church.

 

[CelticRebel]

talk to a Oneness Pentecostal or a Mormon.

Actually, Oneness Pentecostals believe in the Deity of Christ, just not the Trinity. Mormonism is a belief system all to itself, with its own scriptures. A group that would not hold to the deity of Christ would be the Jehovah's Witnesses. But to hold that, they have to rewrite John 1:1 to say the Word was a God.

 

[CelticRebel]

we call them believers that are outside of the Church, but just because that is where they are now, that does not mean that is where they will end up. there will be many Protestants, pagans, Catholics, Muslims, etc who when they see Christ, they will realize He was what they were always after and worship Him. for many that is when they will become Orthodox and join the Church.

Oh, my goodness. That's about all I can or should say.

 

[ArmyMatt]

right, but for the Oneness Pentecostal, Christ is only God when He works that way. the Second Person is not eternally God. it's just that God sometimes functions as the Second Person. and Mormons still use John 1 as we all do, just through the lens of the Book of Mormon

 

[GregConstantine]

"I am saying the effect of holding that any group is "the one true church" is to put everyone else outside of the church"

You can say that about non Christians if you say you believe Christ is the only way to God.

I notice you have answered any of my questions to you. Why is that?

 

[CelticRebel]

well, I did not know that was attributed to him. that being said, no dogma is non essential. so we are not talking about non essentials. folks who follow sola Scriptura don't agree on dogma, which is the issue. if baptism is for salvation, then it is imperative to do so. it is not imperitive for Missouri Synod Lutherans who do it, and at the same time non essential for Quakers who don't. it either is or it isn't. and both groups follow sola Scriptura.

Actually, Quakers don't follow sola scriptura. They didn't from their beginnings. They believe the Spirit is primary. Their reasoning: They say the scriptures, tradition, and experience are all produced by the Spirit.

 

[CelticRebel]

You can say that about non Christians if you say you believe Christ is the only way to God.

We are not talking about non-Christians; the discussion has to do with Christians and churches.

I notice you have answered any of my questions to you. Why is that?

What would those be? I thought I had addressed everything you wrote.

 

[GregConstantine]

You've not answered quite a few questions, please go back and read again.

You're either missing the point or avoiding it. The point is, those groups read the same verse and come to different conclusions. You can try to justify their varying conclusions, but the point remains that they read the same verses and do not have the same interpretation.

At least the JW's are more honest about it and try to change the words of Scriptures.

 

[Antony in Tx]

I am saying the effect of holding that any group is "the one true church" is to put everyone else outside of the church, to make their churches less than "the one true church". Another effect is to exclude faithful Christians from participation in the Lord's Supper. I'll guarantee you when we all meet in heaven, no one will be excluded from that banquet.

I am not saying that what you wrote in the part I highlighted is not true.

We are talking about Christians here. So, what do you call Christians who are not members of your "one true church"?

You clearly have no clue how we treat the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist. Even those of us who regularly take communion are cautioned to prepare properly, through fasting, prayer, almsgiving, confession, reconciliation, and even then to approach the chalice with fear and trembling lest we be unworthy and partake to our own detriment. Exclusion is not based on "membership" but on proper preperation, which can only be done in an "Orthodox" manner. The level of humility in Orthodoxy is off the scale for most outsiders. In a truly observant parish, there may be many who do not take Communion on a regular basis. I think that you would be greatly informed by spending time in an Orthodox church for Liturgy, etc and talking with a priest. The attitude and demeanor of the Orthodox faith is unlike anything you will ever have experienced and cannot be observed or learned indirectly. It must be experienced with all of the senses. This is why a popular invitation is "Come and see."

 

[CelticRebel]

You've not answered quite a few questions, please go back and read again.

You're either missing the point or avoiding it. The point is, those groups read the same verse and come to different conclusions. You can try to justify their varying conclusions, but the point remains that they read the same verses and do not have the same interpretation.

At least the JW's are more honest about it and try to change the words of Scriptures.

Are you talking about the Oneness Pentecostals and Mormons? I already addressed those groups. The Mormons have scriptures they consider equal to the Bible. Why should they believe what the Bible says?

 

[GregConstantine]

Sorry celticrebel, you claimed to have done research. I'm just not seeing it. I'm no expert myself, but I know people who are scholars in the field of Church history, some Orthodox, some not, and they and even other Protestant scholars do not say the same things you say.

 

[CelticRebel]

You clearly have no clue how we treat the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist. Even those of us who regularly take communion are cautioned to prepare properly, through fasting, prayer, almsgiving, confession, reconciliation, and even then to approach the chalice with fear and trembling lest we be unworthy and partake to our own detriment. Exclusion is not based on "membership" but on proper preperation, which can only be done in an "Orthodox" manner. The level of humility in Orthodoxy is off the scale for most outsiders. In a truly observant parish, there may be many who do not take Communion on a regular basis. I think that you would be greatly informed by spending time in an Orthodox church for Liturgy, etc and talking with a priest. The attitude and demeanor of the Orthodox faith is unlike anything you will ever have experienced and cannot be observed or learned indirectly. It must be experienced with all of the senses. This is why a popular invitation is "Come and see."

Actually, I do have a clue, as I have read a lot about it. My question would be then, why do you assume that no one outside the Orthodox Church would prepare properly?

 

[CelticRebel]

Sorry celticrebel, you claimed to have done research. I'm just not seeing it. I'm no expert myself, but I know people who are scholars in the field of Church history, some Orthodox, some not, and they and even other Protestant scholars do not say the same things you say.

I'm telling you that I have done extensive and in-depth research for 40 years. I always hate to bring this into it, but I have a document to prove that. Even if I didn't, though, that wouldn't change the fact of how long and how diligently I have studied. This subject is of the utmost importance to me.