Which laws do we not have to follow

[TruthWave7]

I thought it was from the book of Genesis. I mean, the laws given to Noah..

I'm not disagreeing with you, its just that the laws in the book of Leviticus were more definitive regarding blood and meats, and the Moral Laws of the 10 Commandments define adultery and sexual immorality.

 

[bugkiller]

Yeshua said he came to fulfill the Torah not to abolish it. He also said if you love me you will keep my commandments. Would God really create something and then undo it did God create something imperfect no rather we are inperfect. The law never justified anyone but I would argue we should keep the whole of Torah to the best of our ability except fit laws that apply to the opposite sex or laws that have to do with the priesthood or require the temple. Do we need to obey to be saved no, that would be legalism to trust in the law but we should obey because we love God

I dunno. What did the prophets say? What did Jesus testify to?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Which of the 613 laws apply to us?

NONE!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The apostle was speaking for all believers. We are to keep both the Son's and His Father's commandments.

Everything that the Son said is specifically from the Father (Deu 18:18); this was also verified by the Son (Jn 12:49-50, Jn 15:15). Whatever the Son says is what the Father says. Whatever the Father says is what the Son says. They are one and the same Person, after all!

Unfortunately there are those who wish to divide and divorce the Son from the Father. They want the salvation given through the Son, and none of the responsibilities that come from the Father, and, moreover, they try to minimize the responsibilities that the Son also commands by claiming "prior dispensation".

So start naming the responsibilities of the Christian that come from the Father.

bugkiller

 

[Going Merry]

To OP: All of them!

But you shouldn't sin either

 

[dollarsbill]

I know we don't have to follow the rules in leviticus but what else

The NT clearly tells us. We are not under the Law of Moses, PERIOD. Only the NT.

 

[bugkiller]

The apostle was speaking for all believers. We are to keep both the Son's and His Father's commandments.

Everything that the Son said is specifically from the Father (Deu 18:18); this was also verified by the Son (Jn 12:49-50, Jn 15:15). Whatever the Son says is what the Father says. Whatever the Father says is what the Son says. They are one and the same Person, after all!

Unfortunately there are those who wish to divide and divorce the Son from the Father. They want the salvation given through the Son, and none of the responsibilities that come from the Father, and, moreover, they try to minimize the responsibilities that the Son also commands by claiming "prior dispensation".

You are sadly confused.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Do you know that the Apostles in the Jerusalem Council did enforced these laws that have their basis in the OT book of Leviticus and the the book of Exodus.

Acts 15:19-21 19

“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

Comment: Idols and sexual immorality have their legal basis in the 10 Commandments and the blood and strangled animals have there legal basis in the Levitical laws of the OT. This fact verifies that the Apostles did not view the Levitical laws or the 10 Commandments as being done away with at the cross.

There are similarities yes. This does not obligate the Christian to the law or your selected and modified laws. The Council is not teaching or demanding the law be ovserved by Chrisitians.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I'm not disagreeing with you, its just that the laws in the book of Leviticus were more definitive regarding blood and meats, and the Moral Laws of the 10 Commandments define adultery and sexual immorality.

And to whom was the Book of Leviticus written?

bugkiller

 

[TruthWave7]

The NT clearly tells us. We are not under the Law of Moses, PERIOD. Only the NT.

Moses did not originate, or write the 10 Commandments, God did, therefore how can you say that you are not obligated to obey any of God's moral laws that define sin? Do you see how illogical your reasoning is?

 

[dollarsbill]

Moses did not originated or write the 10 Commandments, God did, therefore how can you say that you are not obligated to obey any of God's moral laws that define sin? Do you see how illogical your reasoning is?

I didn't.

 

[Harry3142]

I know we don't have to follow the rules in leviticus but what else

Leviticus 19:18b is where we find the law 'Love thy neighbor as thyself'. Leviticus 18:1-29 is where we find the definition of what Jesus and Paul both called 'sexual immorality' (Mark 7:20-23 & Galatians 5:16-26). So Leviticus is still useful to us.

But the laws and commandments of Torah were never intended as a yardstick with which to measure perfection. Instead, they were an example of one of the earliest constitutions under which a society could maintain its cohesiveness and strength. It was to be used by a monotheistic people in the same manner as The Code of Hammurabi was being used by the polytheists who surrounded them. It was only centuries later that the laws and commandments were seen as being of any value for attaining eternal life.

Even the promise made by God to the Hebrews as a reward for their keeping the laws and commandments of Torah was purely societal in nature:

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

There's the contract. God agreed to reward the Hebrews with abundant crops, ever-increasing livestock, children, and freedom from the diseases which were rampant in some parts of the Middle East during that time period. But there is no mention of their earning their salvation.

In fact, there's no mention of there being an afterlife anywhere in Torah. Even today many Jews accept this verse, found in Torah, as the only thing which they are to expect following their death:

"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19,NIV)

By the time that Jesus sojourned among us there were Jewish sects, such as the Pharisees, who taught that if the people obeyed the laws they could earn their way into heaven. But the 'laws' they were referring to were far more than the original 613 societal laws and commandments we find in Torah. In order to convert those laws from being societal to being salvific they had added literally thousands of laws in subsets to each of the original commandments. The Sabbath commandment alone had over 1,000 laws in a subset attached to it, and in order to obey that commandment in a manner that could earn them eternal life, the people had to obey every one of those 1,000+ sublaws perfectly.

Jesus himself taught which commandments he saw as still important, and we find these in the gospels. Those commandments which he reiterated, such as the commandments not to murder, steal, bear false witness, et al., we Christians are to accept as important for us to abide by. We find examples of these in Matthew 19:16-26, and in Mark 7:17-23. The commandment to love God is a reiteration of Deuteronomy 6:5. He also confirmed that there is indeed a life to attain following this one, but he was quick to say that our attaining it was dependent on God, rather than on ourselves (Matthew 19:26).

However, we Christians are to do much more than merely 'go through the motions' by superficially following a set of laws. Not only are we to do the right things, but we are also to do them for the right reasons:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

Our words and actions can only conform to what God wants of us if the motivations which lead to their commission also conform to what God wants of us. And that can only occur if the motivations are those listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit'. If we have as the impetus for our actions those listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' instead, then the words and actions which they lead us to commit must be seen as sinful, since the motivations which led to those words and actions were themselves sinful. You cannot obtain good fruit from a poisoned tree, and in like manner you cannot perform righteous acts while using sinful motivations.

And how do we obtain 'the fruit of the Spirit'? We obtain this fruit through accepting the salvation which God himself has earned on our behalf, and now bestows on all who humbly ask it of him:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

The righteousness which saves us isn't our righteousness; it's God's. And as a reward for our admitting this fact, confessing our unworthiness, and humbly asking for this righteousness in return for putting our faith in what God has already accomplished on our behalf through his Son, Jesus Christ, we not only receive that righteousness as a gift which we could never earn, but we also receive the indispensable aid of the Holy Spirit, who enters our lives bringing this fruit with him.

So our living Christian lives begins not with a decision to obey a set of laws, but with a decision to accept the gift of salvation which God offers to all of us. It is from this decision that everything else falls into place, and for anything that we do to truly conform to what God wants of us, it is this decision that we must make first.

God bless-

 

[ViaCrucis]

None of the 613 mitzvot given to Israel through Moses are applicable to us. Because they weren't given to us, they were given to the Jewish people as part of the Covenant God made with Israel on Mt. Sinai.

If you want to follow the Torah don't be a Christian, convert to Judaism. The Jews are the ones who still keep Torah today.

That doesn't mean the Torah is meaningless, or that we are without Law. "Do not murder", while one of the 613 instructions given to the Jewish people is still part of God's Moral Law. Christ has given us commandments, "Love the Lord your God ... and love your neighbor as yourself", "Turn the other cheek", "Bless and do not curse", "Love your enemy", and etc.

The Great Commandment, to love God and neighbor, is the core of the entire Christian moral paradigm. Not murdering, lying, stealing, hating, and generally being a rotten person all flow out from that Commandment.

Of course because of this Christians don't have less Law than what God gave Israel, we have more. We are held to the highest standard there is: the perfection of Jesus Christ Himself who loved and loves without limit or condition; and who gave Himself freely for and to all. The commandment to love is an utterly absolute one.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gottservant]

If you are struggling with the law, it is only ever because you have sinned.

However, if you know you have sinned and (honestly?) can do nothing about, pick any law, ignore that!

For with one law broken, all laws are broken, but with one innocence, all laws have hope.

 

[TruthWave7]

There are similarities yes. This does not obligate the Christian to the law or your selected and modified laws. The Council is not teaching or demanding the law be ovserved by Chrisitians.

bugkiller

Say what?! The Apostles clearly advised that Gentile Christian obey the selected Levitical laws taken from the OT and applied them to Gentile Christians. Moreover, the Apostles exhorted the Gentile Christians to not get involved with sexual immorality. The laws were being put upon Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians for that matter.

 

[ananda]

So start naming the responsibilities of the Christian that come from the Father. bugkiller

I don't know about the unfaithful Christian, but I believe that the faithful wife obeys everything that applies to her, as was commanded by both the Father and the Husband, to the best of her ability.

 

[ananda]

None of the 613 mitzvot given to Israel through Moses are applicable to us ... The commandment to love is an utterly absolute one.

So you deny the Apostle John's definition of "love" - to obey the Father's and the Son's commandments?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Take this Judaism somewhere else.

If I were to go to a Jewish forum, go into the Jewish only section and under Jewish Theology started preaching Christ... what would be the reaction of the Orthodox Jew?

And wouldn't he be right for doing so?

Take the Torah somewhere else.

Forgive me...

 

[ananda]

Take the Torah somewhere else.

Have you torn Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy out of your Bible?

 

[Emmy]

Dear ssammoh. In Matthew 22, verses 35-40, Jesus tells a Lawyer: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. The first and great Commandment: Love thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself."
God wants our Love, freely given and no conditions tagged on. God is Love, and God wants loving children/sons and daughters. What does God want from us?
Everything we say or do, everything we advocate or stand for, MUST BE from Love for God and for our neighbour. (all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) We start by treating them as we would love to be treated, kindly and with friendly words, helping hands if needed, and always be a good neighbours. God will see our sincere efforts, and God will approve and bless us.
Jesus told us to: " ask and ye will receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. We will never be short of Love because we keep asking and thanking God, and sharing all Love and Joy with all around us. ( our neighbour)
Those two Commandments to Love and Care, cover all what God wants us to
do and say, everything included: and we will find that people around us will
treat us the same. Love is very catching, and Love is a Christian`s great weapon to overcome all enmity and selfish and unloving behaviour. Love will also change us into the men and women, which God wants to be with for eternity. " Love and Obey" is what God wants from us, and Jesus our Saviour
is always ready to help and guide us.
We will stumble and forget, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on
" asking prayerfully, and thanking God, and sharing all Love and Joy with our neighbour. Jesus will lead us back to where we came from, and God our Heavenly Father will know that we Love God: because we follow His Commandments to Love God with all our beings, and love our neighbour as we
love ourselves. I say this with love, ssammoh. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.P.S. All things done without Love or Charity, we do not have to follow, because Our Heavenly Father is Love.