Which flag offends you more?

[NightHawkeye]

The institution of slavery and segregation were hateful, the south rebelled to protect slavery, then they spent the next hundred years resisting equality, hate may not be strong enough a word.

Again, hate is much too strong a word.

The fact of the matter is that the Southern states for over a hundred years after the Civil War were effectively colonies of the Union states. Being treated as second class citizens within their own country allowed continued resentment toward the Union to fester far longer than necessary. Long after slavery had been forgotten that resentment lingered on.

Fortunately, the Southern states are thriving these days while many of the Union states suffer with their own self-inflicted problems. The current time simply offers an opportunity to do away with the old Confederate flag which is viewed with disdain by some. Whatever unity it once provided is long past.

As for the "hatred" you are so eager to seize upon, you might consider that the grieving relatives of the recent South Carolina victims offered a call for forgiveness which, in a small but meaningful measure, is bringing about the removal of the Confederate flag, not just from South Carolina but many other places as well.

Russians can be proud to be Russians without adopting iconography of the U.S.S.R.

Indeed. Russians paid a high price for their failed experiment with communism. There is no need for the world to pile on to their grief.

Germans can be proud to be Germans without reveling in the iconography of the third Reich ...

Also true. Germans paid an even higher price for their failed experiment with National Socialism.

... and Southerners can be proud to be Southerners without reveling in the history of the Civil War.

Yes ... and some people on this forum, and elsewhere, need to get over their obvious prejudice of Southerners and perpetual need to punish the South. The DOJ has been forced to forget about punishing the South. I would suggest those in other localities now focus on their own local racial problems ... which in most cases appear to be far worse than in Southern states. Just sayin ...

 

[smaneck]

Again, hate is much too strong a word.

The fact of the matter is that the Southern states for over a hundred years after the Civil War were effectively colonies of the Union states.

Over a hundred years? So you consider the Civil Rights Act to be an act of colonialism?

Fortunately, the Southern states are thriving these days while many of the Union states suffer with their own self-inflicted problems.

Mississippi is not thriving. A quarter of the population lives below the poverty line and most of these people have no access to affordable health care because our state refused to extend Medicaid to them. The public school system is the worst in the country.

Yes ... and some people on this forum, and elsewhere, need to get over their obvious prejudice of Southerners and perpetual need to punish the South.

When 38% of the population of Mississippi stop being victims of continued prejudice against African-Americans maybe we can talk about that. So far not a single African-American has ever been elected to a state-wide office.

 

[smaneck]

Why on earth would Nashville be about a four hour drive from Murray? It's about that long of a drive from Louisville to Nashville (I've driven that one many times).

I take it back. It is only a 2 1/2 hour drive. But there is no freeway until you get to Clarksdale. Last time I drove it was about 20 years ago and a hit a deer on my way home.

 

[seashale76]

I take it back. It is only a 2 1/2 hour drive. But there is no freeway until you get to Clarksdale. Last time I drove it was about 20 years ago and a hit a deer on my way home.

Ugh. Bad luck. My parents just had their truck totaled by a deer last week. We've had one our cars totaled by a deer about two years ago too. No fun.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Over a hundred years? So you consider the Civil Rights Act to be an act of colonialism?

LOL ... that's a curious extension of something I did not say.

Did I not provide enough words for you to choose a legitimate discussion topic?

Mississippi is not thriving.

Give me a break. I grew up largely in Mississippi. It's doing well.

A quarter of the population lives below the poverty line ...

The cost of living is much lower in Mississippi than New York or California. Direct comparisons of poverty fail.

... and most of these people have no access to affordable health care because our state refused to extend Medicaid to them. The public school system is the worst in the country.

Mississippi was also the poorest state when I lived there more than half a century ago ... far poorer than now.

When 38% of the population of Mississippi stop being victims of continued prejudice against African-Americans maybe we can talk about that. So far not a single African-American has ever been elected to a state-wide office.

Perhaps if they focused on soliciting the votes of all people in Mississippi they'd have more success? Just a thought.

Noting also that it was "black" Democrat voters who recently returned Thad Cochran to Washington. Black voters own that mistake.

 

[TheBarrd]

My own Alabama seems to be doing fairly well...

 

[outsidethecamp]

I don't live in a dream world. i just don't live in a world where arrogant people stand around today demonizing those from decades ago for what was considered normal. I understand the progress that has been made in the intervening years and don't insert my own judgments of them from the comforts of a safe and secure website. I'd rather physically talk to people of today and try to work to make things better, which is why I have patiently been speaking to you.

That mentality has made friends out of enemies and allies out of an abundance of respect and understanding of others sensitivities. This is how you bring people closer to your cause and open doors that have been shut for decades.




You continue to make prejudicial assumptions of the intent of others. If these people dispose of this emblem that would be fine as long as they do it of their own volition. If not then those who disagree will be driven underground and will be harder to keep track of. I know this might not matter to you, but I would rather see change made from within peoples hearts instead of shoved down their throats.
That brand of change has a better chance of being permanent and less of a chance of crating radicals.

Right on, bro!

Nobody is talking about banning the Confederate flag. The First Amendment isn't going anywhere. But states have no business flying it and personally I don't intend to patronize businesses that sell them (unless it is the only truck stop around and I really have to go.)

Well then, what business does the supreme court have displaying the 10 commandments? Or, other federal buildings displaying religious icons. Better get rid of all that history, too.

 

[TheBarrd]

Right on, bro!

I hear a lot of high pitch screeching from a katty cat.


Well then, what business does the supreme court have displaying the 10 commandments? Or, other federal buildings displaying religious icons. Better get rid of all that history, too.

*whispers in Outsidethecamp's ear* (I think they're already doing that.)

 

[outsidethecamp]

**whisper back** Oklahoma, right? What about SCOTUS?

Oklahoma Governor defies supreme court.

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/sh...n-commandments-monument-to-remain-at-capitol/

 

[Dave-W]

What about SCOTUS?

Oklahoma Governor defies supreme court.

Not the first time that has happened.
Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D Roosevelt all did so during their presidencies.

 

[variant]

Again, hate is much too strong a word.

The fact of the matter is that the Southern states for over a hundred years after the Civil War were effectively colonies of the Union states. Being treated as second class citizens within their own country allowed continued resentment toward the Union to fester far longer than necessary. Long after slavery had been forgotten that resentment lingered on.

No, it isn't, the south of that period enacted hateful laws against their own citizens. After, ya-know, going to war to protect the institution of their perpetual slavery.

Trot out all the excuses you like but it is exactly what happened.

As for the "hatred" you are so eager to seize upon, you might consider that the grieving relatives of the recent South Carolina victims offered a call for forgiveness which, in a small but meaningful measure, is bringing about the removal of the Confederate flag, not just from South Carolina but many other places as well.

Which I applaud.

It's 2015 though, so, we're talking about pretty slow progress.

Yes ... and some people on this forum, and elsewhere, need to get over their obvious prejudice of Southerners and perpetual need to punish the South. The DOJ has been forced to forget about punishing the South. I would suggest those in other localities now focus on their own local racial problems ... which in most cases appear to be far worse than in Southern states. Just sayin ...

No one is punishing you by disagreeing with the practice of the confederate flag being flown over government buildings.

 

[HonestTruth]

When the left the Union, they gave up citizenship to the US. Why do you think the Southern states had to swear alliance back to the U.S. in order to end reconstruction and be recognized.



The Dixie flag as you call it is actually a battle flag of' I think Kentucky and it is a childish example of ignorance that serves no purpose other than to symbolize sticking their fingers in the eye of those who conquered her. It is not treasonous, but it is pathetic.

Much of Kentucky remained loyal to the Union unlike the traitors who seceded. They did not have to swear alliance but allegiance. They were lucky to have been spared the firing squad for their treason.

Waiving the flag of treason or supporting it in any way is not only childish but an apologia for the needless deaths of Americans. Just imagine if anyone supported an open display the swastika or hammer and sickle or flags of the Viet Cong, al-Qaeda, or ISIS - such ignorance would be condemned by all. Yet here we have people endorsing the waiving of the flag of treason. That is utterly pathetic.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Much of Kentucky remained loyal to the Union unlike the traitors who seceded. They did not have to swear alliance but allegiance. They were lucky to have been spared the firing squad for their treason.

Waiving the flag of treason or supporting it in any way is not only childish but an apologia for the needless deaths of Americans. Just imagine if anyone supported an open display the swastika or hammer and sickle or flags of the Viet Cong, al-Qaeda, or ISIS - such ignorance would be condemned by all. Yet here we have people endorsing the waiving of the flag of treason. That is utterly pathetic.

I think treason suggest a third party to which America would be at odd against, such as selling secrets or acting in the interest of a foreign power against America. Benedict Arnold comes to mind. He did not remove himself from America but he did plan to sell us out.

Removing yourself from being a citizen relieves you of any responsibility or loyalty to the power walked away from.

America did not act treasonously against the British Empire, we removed ourselves from it.

 

[Niederwaldflash]

As far as the hammer and sickle goes it represents a political ideology in Communism that is antithetical to my faith so I find it as offensive as I would the Swastika or any other symbol of repressive societies that have persecuted the faithful for their faith. However you cannot read of the faith of Stonewall Jackson and not admire it. On the other hand Lincoln was a lifelong non church goer who is known to have dabbled in the occult. In my opinion Jackson got the faith right and the constitution wrong and Lincoln got the constitution right and the faith wrong. A lot to admire in both men while acknowledging their failings also.

In the spirit of reconciliation I would never use the battle flag. I am a southerner, but black folks are southerns also...and although I do not take offense at the flag, most black southerners do so I happily give it up so as not to offend. But Jackson fought under that flag and I he will always be my hero because of this..."Captain, my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me. Captain, that is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave."

What I am trying to say, less than eloquently, is that I find the Hammer and sickle more offensive because it is purely evil. Although I would never use the battle flag I do not find it to rise to the level of evil of the USSR. Wrong yes, but evil.... no, just not nearly enlightened enough. In short...I may be of southern decent...but the right side won the war. Of course...let us not forget that the north might have wanted to emancipate the slaves...but even Lincoln did not want them to vote. Nobody had it all right.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

You talk like a Christian.
Please do not take that as an insult, as it is not meant as one.
I wish more Christians were like you...

I don't take what is meant as a compliment as anything more or less than that. I got over myself when I learned I liked who I was and made the determination not to conform myself to the wishes of others.

Though I speak from my heart and I don't let my irritation for the wrongs done upon this world become justification to hate those who do wrong to others. Hate consumes everything around it and removes sanity from the world. I will not let it color my soul because if I do I will become equal to they that spread hate.

If that is Christian then there are more in this world who act like one than those who claim to be, but is it the talking of the talk or the walking of the walk that best describes a Christian?

I respect religion and those who follow it according to their respect for others. No one group has any monopoly on arrogance and none are worse than those who think others less capable than they running their lives than they are.

Choices are made and pathways are trodden. No one is wrong unless they themselves have determined they are or have actively indulged in the victimization of others.

 

[Red Fox]

Well then, what business does the supreme court have displaying the 10 commandments? Or, other federal buildings displaying religious icons. Better get rid of all that history, too.

Our secular government should remove all the religious icons from the influences of Christianity since it is against the First Amendment of this country's Constitution to establish or promote a religion. Christians can practice their religion of course, under the rights given to them by this Amendment, but they have no constitutional right to insist that their religion is specifically recognized in public or promoted and established by our secular government. They also have no right to insist that their religion influence our secular government in any national laws that would suppress and oppress our country's secular population, such as the right to discriminate against homosexuals and other LGBT people. I would very much like to see any influences of Christianity or any other religion, including any religious icons, such as the Ten Commandments, removed from public display. I would go so far as to include all monuments that glorify this country removed as well, especially any display of this nation's most cherished rag.

 

[AirPo]

Well then, what business does the supreme court have displaying the 10 commandments?

It doesn't display the 10 commandments.

 

[outsidethecamp]

It doesn't display the 10 commandments.

Yes, I see where the carvings on the brass doors represent the 1st 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights and not the 10 commandments.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The fact of the matter is that the Southern states for over a hundred years after the Civil War were effectively colonies of the Union states. Being treated as second class citizens within their own country allowed continued resentment toward the Union to fester far longer than necessary. Long after slavery had been forgotten that resentment lingered on.

In the aftermath of a war, it's rare for the winners to simply forgive the losers and let bygones be bygones... the death and destruction caused tends to leave some residual resentment.

 

[outsidethecamp]

In the aftermath of a war, it's rare for the winners to simply forgive the losers and let bygones be bygones... the death and destruction caused tends to leave some residual resentment.

What happened after the war to the South, was in many ways worse than the war itself. I will post some facts about it, later.