Where feminism lost definity the battle...

[Winchester]

Hi folks,

I don't know much about all these gender stuff and as a man I don't really care much about it but there is in my eyes on field of work where feminism unfortunately has lost the battle obviously: sexism vs. womens dignity. I don't know how it is in the United States but here in Germany it became really awful during the last few years. I mean, look, I am quite conservative in one's view but what our german mass media and advertiser are doing to women and young girls is totally crap.

Yesterday evening for example, I had dinner with my family and we were watching TV. We watched 'Deutschland sucht den Superstar' also called 'DSDS' which is the German version of American Idol. There were so many girls and women there who stake everything on one card and try to compensate their non-existing talent with the old 'sex sells'-stitch. I can assure you every female prostitute has more dignity that these girls and women shown at the show. During the show of course we had to bear a lot of advertising where women were reduced to a product which should be consumed by men. Later we were watching a really disgusting show where 5 women were looking for a millionaire. A jury of 3 rich people had to decide which of these 5 women and a girl (she was 16/17 years old) would get the chance to be the next 'girlfriend' of a 55 year old millionaire! In Germany you have to know that it is legal for a grown-up man to have a sexual relationship with a girl as long as she is 16 years old or older. The women and the one girl had to pass a lot of tasks where the viewer could only get the impression that the only reason why women exists anyway is to be a sex toy for rich men. And guess, which of the 5 women get the 'job'? Of course the 16/17 year old girl just because she was young and good looking enough for the 55 year old man.

If this girl would be my daughter and I would hear that she had sex with that 55 year old rich pervert I would first of course forgive my daughter that she was stupid enough to give her body to such an old man and right after that I would get this 55 year old little rich bastard in my hands, rip his head of and shot his balls with a Pumpgun to the moon. I mean what the F**k is wrong with these people!? Where the hell are all the feminists to stop this crap!?

 

[quatona]

Fernsehgucken beim Essen??

 

[Winchester]

Fernsehgucken beim Essen??

Yes, sometimes it's necessary. ;-)

 

[Autumnleaf]

If you watch that kind of show, then you are supporting it by your actions.

Sex sells?

----

Oh, feminism lost when it became masculine and distanced itself from the wonder of procreation.

 

[brotherChristian]

Fernsehgucken beim Essen??

Na... wieso nicht? Das ist ein Muss bei DSDS.

 

[quatona]

Na... wieso nicht? Das ist ein Muss bei DSDS.

Die Frage war "Fernsehgucken beim Essen??", und nicht "Essen beim Fernsehgucken??".

Anyway, ich hatte DSDS immer eher mit Kotzen als mit Essen assoziiert...

 

[brotherChristian]

Anyway, ich hatte DSDS immer eher mit Kotzen als mit Essen assoziiert...

Ah ja, Dieters Wuergelachen...

 

[JustMeSee]

I wouldn't base anything on a reality show.

If some women want to be sexual, so be it. Their call.

If some women want to live the old traditional role, so be it. Their call.

 

[brotherChristian]

here in Germany it became really awful during the last few years.

Brother, I have to agree with you there. When I moved here 14 years ago there were more decent shows on, now everything is either Bauern sucht Frau or other reality shows, often portraying a woman as either an object to be bartered for or as an incomplete person until she finds a man to validate her life.

But as to the sexuality thing, I think Germany is actually much more sexually mature than most other countries. They don't mystify sex and they don't treat it like some dirty little thing you have to sneak around to do.

That being said, my daughter is about to be a teenager and I pity the 55 year old guy that even looks at her lustfully.

 

[lisah]

If you watch that kind of show, then you are supporting it by your actions.

I have to agree with this.

As far as feminism goes, what does the actions of a few women on some stupid tv show trying to make an easy buck, or to get their face on tv, have to do with the feminist movement?

Not every woman is a feminist . . . one does not reflect the other. Why can't people understand that?

 

[Paradoxum]

I'm mixed on this. It's their choice what they want to do with their lives. On the other hand it seems a bit messed up. Not that messed up things should be banned.

You could say that being free to make 'messed up' decisions is a good thing.

 

[Hank]

@ Winchester
Ich dachte Fernsehen ist nur eine amerikanische Angewohnheit. Ob es früher besser war, keine Ahnung. Ich konnte und kann Fernsehen nicht ausstehen. Meine Frage: Reflektiert das Fernsehen die Gesellschaft, oder ist Fernsehen immer noch eine reine Zeitverschwendung?

In English, Merkel is a woman is she not? Perhaps TV simply is what it is, irrelevant to reality. Come to think about, my very own mom was emancipated, way before equal rights made it into government.

Also, good luck ripping a rich man’s head off. Not entirely sure how things are now in Germany, last time I went, cash was still king. For as long as you follow the rules of the land, everything goes. If you failed to imprint values into your offspring (and raising children is very tough), old rich men will fill the void, not to forget young rich men, or even the poor men.

 

[Autumnleaf]

I'm mixed on this. It's their choice what they want to do with their lives. On the other hand it seems a bit messed up. Not that messed up things should be banned.

You could say that being free to make 'messed up' decisions is a good thing.

I worked with young women at a retail store when I got out of the Marines. One of the young women was about to date a guy who the other women knew was a player and they were not going to tell her. They said she would learn her lesson. I called them out on it as a hateful thing for them to do, and they warned her and she didn't make that mistake. Instead she dated a 45 year old for a few months before settling down with a Mexican guy who didn't speak English. So far they have 3 children and she doesn't speak Spanish. Ah, the universal language of love.

There seems to be a willingness by some people to let others walk into trouble. I suspect its a way of making shadenfreud for their own perverse amusement.

 

[quatona]

Ich dachte Fernsehen ist nur eine amerikanische Angewohnheit. Ob es früher besser war, keine Ahnung. Ich konnte und kann Fernsehen nicht ausstehen. Meine Frage: Reflektiert das Fernsehen die Gesellschaft, oder ist Fernsehen immer noch eine reine Zeitverschwendung?

What hasn´t changed: Media people excuse their poor programs with reference to the fact that people watch them.

 

[Winchester]

Brother, I have to agree with you there. When I moved here 14 years ago there were more decent shows on, now everything is either Bauern sucht Frau or other reality shows, often portraying a woman as either an object to be bartered for or as an incomplete person until she finds a man to validate her life.

Yeah and you will find that crap in german television everywhere on allmost every channel. I'm glad that I have Pay-TV (Sky) otherwise I would not know what I should watch.

But as to the sexuality thing, I think Germany is actually much more sexually mature than most other countries. They don't mystify sex and they don't treat it like some dirty little thing you have to sneak around to do.

Serious? Up to a certain point you are right. Almost everyone in Germany knows how it works, but I don't see that these knowledge make them more responsible and mature. Almost everyone is talking about it but only to boast about it to somebody. The most Germans behave like childrens but not like grown-ups. They know what to do but I do not see that they are willing to take the responsibility or the blame if they mess up.

That being said, my daughter is about to be a teenager and I pity the 55 year old guy that even looks at her lustfully.

Maybe it is the way you describe it hear but I doubt that you would do anything irresponsible to her or to any girl of her age. But these rich perverts didn't care what they are doing to these girls and women and take it for granted that they can do with them what they want without to fear any consequences.

 

[quatona]

The most Germans behave like childrens but not like grown-ups. They know what to do but I do not see that they are willing to take the responsibility or the blame if they mess up.

That´s strong words.

 

[brotherChristian]

Serious? Up to a certain point you are right. Almost everyone in Germany knows how it works, but I don't see that these knowledge make them more responsible and mature. Almost everyone is talking about it but only to boast about it to somebody. The most Germans behave like childrens but not like grown-ups. They know what to do but I do not see that they are willing to take the responsibility or the blame if they mess up.

Oh yea, I'm dead serious. I come from the USA originally and I can tell you it is another world there sexually. There is a mystification around sex which results in young people not being spoken to frankly about it. This leads to way more irresponsible behavior than in Germany. Although, I can't say I have met many cultures that have a totally mature approach to sex, but making something so integral to our biology taboo and dirty just leads to trouble. Well, more trouble, that is. Arguable sex can always land one in trouble, wherever they are from.

 

[Paradoxum]

I worked with young women at a retail store when I got out of the Marines. One of the young women was about to date a guy who the other women knew was a player and they were not going to tell her. They said she would learn her lesson. I called them out on it as a hateful thing for them to do, and they warned her and she didn't make that mistake. Instead she dated a 45 year old for a few months before settling down with a Mexican guy who didn't speak English. So far they have 3 children and she doesn't speak Spanish. Ah, the universal language of love.

Being in a relationship with someone you can't talk to doesn't sound great.

There seems to be a willingness by some people to let others walk into trouble. I suspect its a way of making shadenfreud for their own perverse amusement.

True, but that isn't my reason for wanting people to be free to live their own lives.

 

[HannahT]

To me there is a difference between people being free to live their own lifes, and encouraging behavior that doesn't point out your giving your dignity away. Don't get me wrong I would say the same thing to men.

Acting like fools is popular, and the message at times it seems is that is the way to go - and those people are cool.

I think what the original poster is saying is WHERE are the voices telling them otherwise? Being silent is doing them a huge disservice - and I agree.

If you want to go full steam ahead? Fine, but realize the whole picture. They don't show the other side of this, and they should.

 

[Paradoxum]

To me there is a difference between people being free to live their own lifes, and encouraging behavior that doesn't point out your giving your dignity away. Don't get me wrong I would say the same thing to men.

How does any of this necessarily involve giving your dignity away? I wouldn't say its undignified if that's really want they want to do.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out possible problems, for their benefit, though. But I think that can be done in a non-judgmental way.