What was before creation? Discussion [Moved from Formal Debate]

Feb 15, 2013
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Don't feel like typing everything out again, this is a video I made, I am not sure how to embed it, so if it did not embed properly just click the link to get to the video and you can discuss it in the comment section of the video if you are a youtube user or just discuss it here, either way is cool.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeRWomDkcJM[/youtube]

^^^If that didnt work here is the external link

What was before creation? (Gen. Chapter 1 Discussion) - YouTube
 

Andres88

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elopez

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Don't feel like typing everything out again, this is a video I made, I am not sure how to embed it, so if it did not embed properly just click the link to get to the video and you can discuss it in the comment section of the video if you are a youtube user or just discuss it here, either way is cool.
I think even asking the question, "What was before creation?" is invalid as "before" is a reference of time which invokes change, and without creation there was no time, and hence no "before." God simply existed without the creation. No need to complicate it after that.

Days are 24 hr days. "Yom" there is defined originally in reference to the sun setting and rising. Though, the sun is claimed to have not been created until days later, and so in the beginning there was no sun. Yet if there was no sun in the first few days, then it cannot be defined as "Yom," or it is at least very undermining to do so. Plus, there cannot be a day as it is defined without the sun anyway, so of course Genesis is metaphorical.
 
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Jig

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Days are 24 hr days. "Yom" there is defined originally in reference to the sun setting and rising. Though, the sun is claimed to have not been created until days later, and so in the beginning there was no sun. Yet if there was no sun in the first few days, then it cannot be defined as "Yom," or it is at least very undermining to do so. Plus, there cannot be a day as it is defined without the sun anyway, so of course Genesis is metaphorical.

You don't need the Sun specifically to have a proper day. You just need a rotating planet and a light source. Before God created the stars and the Sun, Genesis accounts that there was a planet and a light source. Its not a far stretch to assume our planet was spinning already.
 
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juvenissun

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I think even asking the question, "What was before creation?" is invalid as "before" is a reference of time which invokes change, and without creation there was no time, and hence no "before." God simply existed without the creation. No need to complicate it after that.

Very good. :thumbsup:
 
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miamited

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You don't need the Sun specifically to have a proper day. You just need a rotating planet and a light source. Before God created the stars and the Sun, Genesis accounts that there was a planet and a light source. Its not a far stretch to assume our planet was spinning already.

Hi jig,

Just curious, and I may have asked you this question before. Why do you feel that a light source is needed to define a day?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Jig

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Hi jig,

Just curious, and I may have asked you this question before. Why do you feel that a light source is needed to define a day?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.


Both morning and evening are defined by the apparent rising and setting of a light source.
 
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Calminian

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What was before creation? The Creator of course. What'd I win??

(haven't listened to the YouTube, yet, but will soon.)

Okay, just listened. First, was there something prior to the creation of the heavens and earth found in Genesis 1 and could that explain the dinosaurs?

No, the text gives no indication of this, and in fact it's not a possible inference. In verse 2 we find a very interesting sentence. The earth was formless and void. Was—meaning was, formess—unformed, void—unfilled.

First, regarding the word "was." Surprisingly, it actually means "was" and not "became" as some speculate. From the article The Gap Theory—an Idea with Holes?

‘Was’ Means ‘Was’

A significant problem with this idea is that the Hebrew word for ‘was’ really should be translated ‘was’. It should not be translated ‘became’. It is the Hebrew verb of being, hayah, and normally it is simply translated ‘was’. In all the standard translations of the Old Testament, that is the way this verse is rendered. On some occasions, in an unusual situation if the context requires it, the word can be translated ‘became’. There are some instances like that in the Old Testament.

By far the tremendous majority of times, however, when the verb is used, it is simply translated ‘was’. In the absence of any indication in the immediate context that it should be rendered by a change of state, where it became something which it wasn’t, one would normally assume it was simply a declarative statement describing how the situation existed at the time. The earth was, in response to God’s creative fiat, initially without form and void.

Some people use Isaiah 45:18 as an argument for the use of ‘became’ in Genesis 1:2. In this verse, Isaiah says that God created the earth not in vain. He formed it to be inhabited. The word ‘in vain’ is the same as tohu; that is, the same word translated ‘without form’ in Genesis 1:2. So ‘gap’ theorists say that since God did not create it that way, it must have become that way. But again, the context is significant. In Isaiah, the context requires the use of the translation ‘in vain’. That is, God did not create the earth without a purpose; He created it to be inhabited. Genesis 1 tells us then how He brought form to the unformed earth and inhabitants to the empty earth. It was not really finished until He said so at the end of the six days of creation.

The word tohu is actually translated 10 different ways in about 20 occurrences in the Old Testament. Isaiah 45:19 has the same word, and there it has to be translated ‘vainly’ or ‘in vain’. It is also proper to translate it that way in Isaiah 45:18. It depends on the context as to how it is to be precisely translated. In Genesis 1:2 the context simply indicates the earth had no structure as yet. It was unformed; it was not even spherical at that point, but was comprised of only the basic elements of earth material.​

So was means was, and the text is simply describing what earth was like on the first day of creation.

Look at the text carefully you should see pretty clear the intended meaning. To paraphrase: In the beginning God created something, and here is what its initial form was like. God created the earth in the beginning, but at that time it was not only unfilled with all the things it has today, but it was also unformed. That word is key to understanding the authors intent. It didn't have its shape yet! In the beginning, it was merely waters, which are formless, and can only take the shape of their container.

You see, had the text said the earth was merely unfilled, that would probably work with your speculation. But it was also formless. Keep in mind also, the ancient biblical writers were not understanding the term earth in the same way you are. Erets was merely a term that meant land.

And God called the dry land Earth—Gen. 1:10

So in the beginning, says the writer, God created the land and the sky. But at that time, the land was still unformed and was described as waters. In the next several paragraphs we see God forming the land and the heavens, and filling them. The six days are a miraculous transformation of the formless and empty earth into the masterpiece we see today.

Were the days consecutive and literal?

Now regarding the hebrew word yom which is translated "day," there is absolutely nothing in the original language that makes this word any different that the english word day. People often elude to some kind of nuance in the original language that english readers cannot see. This is utter nonsense. Day in english is virtually identical to yom in hebrew in meaning and usage. The term in english can be used in a number of ways literally and figuratively, just as the hebrew word yom can.

In my grandfathers day, he walked to school every day, and barely made it home before the day ended.​

Here in english you have 3 different understandings of the word in one sentence. But notice also, those meanings are not interchangeable. Each occurrence has a specific meaning in its particular context and can't mean anything else. The same is true in the Bible. The days of Genesis mean morning and evening days. They can't mean anything else. This is certainly how Moses understood them.

Ex. 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: ..... 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Here the work week is specifically compared to the creation week and literal days for both are clearly indicated.

Hope this helps.

PS, quick note about dinosaurs. Creationists don't believe they existed millions of years ago, but were created with and alongside man. Is there evidence for this? Ever wondered where all those dragon legends came from in every culture? Just about every ancient culture has legends of man slaying large reptilian beasts and riding on all kinds of fame afterward. They are found everywhere. Creationists believe these were exaggerated stories about real dinosaurs that men encountered.

Dinos after the flood were likely very vulnerable to human hunters. Despite their depictions in popular movies, they were likely very slow and clumsy creatures and easy to capture and kill. T-Rex likely had a top speed of 10 mph, and probably opted not to run at all, as a fall for him would have been fatal. I think him and all of the other dinosaurs were hunted to extinction in the first couple hundred years after the flood. Hunters were given a great deal of notoriety at that time (Nimrod for instance) and dinosaurs made for some very interesting hunting tales, as they looked much more dangerous than they really were. The smarter mammal predators were another story, as they had the agility and intelligence to avoid human hunters, and fight back much more effectively.

Some articles for further reading:

Dragon Legends—Truths Behind the Tales

Dragons: Fact of fable?

Dinosaurs and dragons: stamping on the legends

Historical Support for the Coexistence of Dinosaurs and Humans [Part I]

Historical Support for the Coexistence of Dinosaurs and Humans [Part II]

What Happened to the Dinosaurs?
 
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Calminian, I respect your detailed answer and you made sense of a lot of questions in my head. However, when you got to the part about the Dinasaurs, you lost me. I mean the Dragon theory is a good point but science prooves the bones are older than 6 million years. Archeologist didnt go to school and study this art just to debunk Christians. If you speak with an attorney about laws would you not trust them? If you speak to a doctor about cancer would you not trust them? Why is it that you would just randomly not trust a profesional in their field, just because what they might have to say disagrees with your spirtual beliefs?
 
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frogman2x

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And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

Both morning and evening are defined by the apparent rising and setting of a light source.

No it is defined by a light source and the earth rotating.

Actually there has never been complete darkness in the universe. God's shekinah glory is from eternity and that is what will light the new heavens and new earth.

k
 
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Calminian

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Calminian, I respect your detailed answer and you made sense of a lot of questions in my head. However, when you got to the part about the Dinasaurs, you lost me. I mean the Dragon theory is a good point but science prooves the bones are older than 6 million years. Archeologist didnt go to school and study this art just to debunk Christians. If you speak with an attorney about laws would you not trust them? If you speak to a doctor about cancer would you not trust them? Why is it that you would just randomly not trust a profesional in their field, just because what they might have to say disagrees with your spirtual beliefs?

Well your question was not about science per se, but what scripture (particularly Genesis 1) says. I'm was merely answering your questions, and explaining that all creatures were made on days 5-6. Now your objection is that science contradicts Genesis, which is a very different issue.

But the first step in understanding scripture is to allow it to speak for itself, and not try to cram it into a modern framework of modern theories. Once you do that, you can then proceed to investigate the truth of its claims.

Now regarding your objection, first I would agree, yes, the Bible often contradicts science. For instance medical science has shown that men don't rise from the grave after 3 days. Yet the bible says it happened. In fact, every miracle recorded in scripture is a contradiction of science in some way. That is the essence of miracles.

What I would suggest to you is to think a little bit deeper about what science actually is. Is the origins debate at its heart really a scientific debate? I would submit that at at its core essence it is not. Rather it is a philosophical and theological debate. For the first question you must resolve is the nature by which we came into existence. Was that event natural or miraculous? Looking at Genesis witness (should you choose to believe it) it should be clear that our origin is indeed miraculous. If so, we have a very serious epistemological problem. Science must assume the absence of miracles it any given area of investigation. This assumption is often called methodological naturalism. Without this assumption being true in the particular area being investigated, science cannot function properly. Predictions don't work if things to not remain constant and predictable.

Now there are many resources I could point you to regarding the age of dinosaur bones. In particular, there is the T-Rex bones recently found which still had soft tissue intact. This is still a very hot topic in creation/evolution circles.

For a recent update see: The Scrambling Continues

But the real problem your going to have with science is that it must always search for naturalistic answers. It can never consider a supernatural cause for anything, be it animals, the earth, the stars etc.. Taken to its logical conclusion, origins science brings us all the way back to a dead end 13.7 billions years ago to an event called the Big Bang, which no one understands or can explain. But that's what science must do. For methodological reasons is must preclude the existence of miracles a priori, and therefore speculate about a non-miraculous beginning. Unfortunately, it drops us off at a very illogical a-causal event billions of years ago.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big believer in science. I trust science mainly because I believe that God created the natural laws and sustains them. But I also believe God transcends them, and therefore is not subject to them. He can bypass them any time He chooses. We find one of those times in the Genesis creation account.

For an analogy, think about an automobile. Let's say you come across one one day. You study it. You learn how it works inside and out. Can you then determine its origin, based on that knowledge of how it works? The truth is, that car had a designer, and the only what to learn about him would be through revelation through him or someone who knew him or written records.

Science is a wonderful method of obtaining knowledge about certain things, but a limited epistemological system. And that's fine so long as people understand it has limits. When you fail to understand that, it becomes a religion and forces you to believe the universe leapt into existence for no reason uncaused. I just don't have the faith to believe that.
 
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jpcedotal

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science prooves the bones are older than 6 million years.

The "science" used to date the bones actually dates the rock around the bones, not the bones themselves.

In other words, legit archeologist say the rocks around the bones are so many billions of years old, not the bones.
 
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n2thelight

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So was means was, and the text is simply describing what earth was like on the first day of creation.

Look at the text carefully you should see pretty clear the intended meaning. To paraphrase: In the beginning God created something, and here is what its initial form was like. God created the earth in the beginning, but at that time it was not only unfilled with all the things it has today, but it was also unformed. That word is key to understanding the authors intent. It didn't have its shape yet! In the beginning, it was merely waters, which are formless, and can only take the shape of their container.

You see, had the text said the earth was merely unfilled, that would probably work with your speculation. But it was also formless. Keep in mind also, the ancient biblical writers were not understanding the term earth in the same way you are. Erets was merely a term that meant land.

I believe it should read"became"..........

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.
In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]

Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the true meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime on the meaning of this word "void". # 2254; "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail," This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which reads; "to ruin".

"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude. We will look into these Scripture passages and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.

If you don't understand that there was a first earth age, you will not understand why God would say in Malachi 1:3; "And I hated Esau...". God hated Esau even while he was in his mother's womb. It was in the first earth age that God hated Esau, because of what Esau did in that first earth age. It was what Esau's soul did in that age that so angered God; and that anger passed on to the embryo of Esau, when his soul entered into this earth age. See also Romans 9:13.

This verse, then, does verify the fact that our earth is older than 6,000 years old. To be more exact, it's probably many millions of years old. However, no matter how old this earth is, it is the only place we can live on in the flesh and survive. We do not worship God's creation; we are to worship the creator, our Heavenly Father. God is in control of all of His creation, and He destroyed all forms of life that lived on the earth from the first earth age.

In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

This is God speaking as Isaiah is writing it down, and He is telling us that when He created the earth, it was not in vain. "Vain" is the same Hebrew word that we saw in Genesis 1:2, which was given as "void". God created this earth to be lived on, and to be inhabited. Genesis 1:1 told us that God created the earth to be inhabited. The "Tohu", the "destruction", was not part of the creation plan of verse one, but came after the fall of Satan when one third of all the souls followed Satan in the first earth age, in verse two.

We find more documentation concerning the first earth age in II Peter 3. In fact we can read of all three earth ages, as Peter becomes a witness to the fact.

II Peter 3:5; "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

The earth came about by "the word of God", God's speech. Some ministers preach that this was Noah's flood, well let's see.

II Peter 3:6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

Perished means total destruction. "The world [age] that then was" ended in total ruin through another flood that was prior to Noah's day. There were no survivors of that flood; no animals, no man, no insects, nor vegetation survived in any form. Everything perished! We know in Noah's flood that two of all life forms were saved.

Jeremiah 4:22; "For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and, lo it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Here we get back to the same word that we saw earlier in Genesis 1:2; The Hebrew word "Tohu" for "void". In other words, God is saying, "I destroyed the first heaven and earth age." There simply was no life form existing on this earth at the close of the first earth age in any form.

Jeremiah 4:24; "I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

This is why the magnetic north is 90 miles off true north? God shook the earth and everything moved from its foundations at the time the destruction "tohu" took place.

Jeremiah 4:25; "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Did you get that? No man, no animals, and not even the birds were left alive. The earth was covered with water, and life could not exist. There was no boat floating around on the surface, for the span of time could have been for thousands of years, or a much greater time.

genesis1
 
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Calminian

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I believe it should read"became"..........

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.
In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

I'm not following this argument. You're saying that a possible meaning of hayah is became, and therefore it must mean this?

Any word can mean virtually anything in a certain context. What about the context here in Genesis 1 do you think mandates the translation "became."

BTW, there is not a single translation out there to my knowledge that uses this translation here in Genesis 1. Why do you suppose that is, if it's such a slam dunk case? And why do you believe was should be translated became? Do you think all occurrences of hayah should be translated became? Please explain.
 
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