What part of Pentecostal....

stormdancer0

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Alcohol is simply one of those things that

1. Was necessary then for health reasons (water was unsafe and grape juice only lasts so long without fermentation

and

2. Has more potential for danger and destruction than it does for good.

Opinions aside, Jesus did drink wine, and created it at Cana. But He did not get drunk. Otherwise, the Pharisees would have accused Him of BEING a drunkard instead of eating and drinking with them.
 
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JC_Crust

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Alcohol is simply one of those things that

1. Was necessary then for health reasons (water was unsafe and grape juice only lasts so long without fermentation

and

2. Has more potential for danger and destruction than it does for good.

Opinions aside, Jesus did drink wine, and created it at Cana. But He did not get drunk. Otherwise, the Pharisees would have accused Him of BEING a drunkard instead of eating and drinking with them.

exactly. people are capable of doing the right thing when it comes to drinking. no one should condemn it because of those who get out of control.
 
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BereanTodd

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Alcohol is simply one of those things that

1. Was necessary then for health reasons (water was unsafe and grape juice only lasts so long without fermentation

and

2. Has more potential for danger and destruction than it does for good.

If it was only necesary for health reasons, why then is it spoken of as being a blessing from God? Why are people commanded to be merry with/enjoy it? Why did God not just tell them to boil their water (which would have been equally safe)?

Opinions aside, Jesus did drink wine, and created it at Cana. But He did not get drunk. Otherwise, the Pharisees would have accused Him of BEING a drunkard instead of eating and drinking with them.

Minor alteration but they actually did accuse him of being a drunkard, though I don't believe He ever was drunk, I think it was guilt by association in that case ... as obviously drunkeness IS a sin.
 
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BereanTodd

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However your reference to the OT is correct, pity you didn't give the reference. You can also find references in the OT where God commanded abstinence of individuals.

God bless you & please enjoy your beer.

I will enjoy my beer. I'm glad that for YOU it is good to abstain. You want reference? Here enjoy this. This is an exert from a letter written between two pastors who were at issues because one who had been a man of your position finally looked at the Scriptures and realized that he had been wrong and the other pastor took issue with him. (emphasis in bold added by me)

---------------------------

Remember, the Bible, God's inerrant revelation of Himself to us, is our only rule of faith and practice. Emotional arguments, arguments from personal experience and cultural practice cannot dictate what we believe and do. Only God's Word should govern our thinking.

The first area with which I would like to deal is our common ground. The Bible is very clear about drunkenness. Drunkenness is a sin which is deplorable in the sight of God. From the Old Testament through the New Testament God has made this very clear.

Prov. 23:21, Is. 28:1, Luke 21:34, Rom. 13:13, Eph. 5:18,

In fact, drunkenness is a picture and a sign of God's judgment:

Is. 19:14, Is. 24:20, Is. 29:9

The Bible clearly states that the drunkard will not inherit the kingdom of God (1Cor 6:9-10) because this is a work of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21). I detest drunkenness, and, in fact, have begun church discipline on people who have been publicly drunk. Many people do not see how this position is consistent with what I am about to say, but the Bible is perfectly consistent about the issue. The Bible's teaching on alcohol as a beverage is quite clear.

The first word in the Old Testament that is translated wine is the Hebrew word yayin. Some have tried to argue that this word as well as others does not refer to a drink that has the ability to intoxicate in order to maintain the position that abstinence is the only way to think about alcohol, but their arguments are in vain according to the use of the word in the OT. The word is used 141 times in the OT.

This is the fruit of the vine by which Noah became drunk (Gen 9:21, 24), Lot's daughters led their father to drunkenness by yayin (Gen 19:32-35), Eli thought Hannah was drunk with yayin (1Sam 1:14-15), and Nabal was also drunk with yayin (1Sam. 25:37). Many more examples could be cited, but I think this is sufficient.

The interesting thing about yayin, wine, is that it is also seen as a blessing from God (Gen. 49:12 "His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk;" this is in the pronouncement of blessing from God on the tribe of Judah from which our Lord would descend).

In fact, God required yayin to be a part of offerings offered to Him in the OT ceremonies (Ex. 29:40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine [yayin] for a drink offering; cf also Lev. 23:13; Num. 6:20; Num. 15:5, 7, 10; Num. 28:14).

One of the tithes required by the Lord involved the people tithing of all of their produce each year. They were to take this tithe to the tabernacle. But if the stuff they were to take would spoil on the journey, this was God's command:

Deut. 14:26 "And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine[yayin], or for strong drink [shachar], or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household."

God is commanding them to go out and buy these potentially intoxicating beverages so that they and their households may partake and rejoice before the Lord for His goodness! Now, is God promoting sin? Does not God know that this stuff is potentially intoxicating? Is God the author of sin? God forbid!!! The fact is alcohol is seen as a good gift from God to be enjoyed in His presence and for His glory. He is strictly against the abuse of this good gift and all of His other good gifts. But He is NOT against the proper use of His good gifts.

A sign of God's cursing upon His people would be that they would have vineyards but would not be able to drink the yayin from them

(Deut. 28:39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. Cf also Is. 16:10.)

But the blessing of the Lord would be just the opposite:

Amos 9:14 "And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them."

The facts are that God prohibits drunkenness, but He encourages the proper view and use of His good gift of alcohol. There is much more that could be said from the OT, but I will move on to the NT for the sake of boring you with all the facts.

The NT is also replete with examples about the use of wine. The Greek word is oinos. Another phrase that is used is tou genematos tes ampelou, the fruit of the vine. The cup Jesus used in the Last Supper was a common term used for the cup of blessing which was understood to be wine. But let's deal with the biblical uses of oinos and oinos neos (new wine).

Jesus compares the kingdom of God as revealed in Himself as new wine (oinos neos). He says that you don't put new wine in old wineskins because the fermentation would burst the already stretched out wineskins. If this stuff were so deplorable, why would our Lord use it for an example of the kingdom of God? Wasn't He as smart as our culture today?

Christ even goes so far as to say that aged wine is much better than new wine (Luke 5:37-39)! And then there is that incident where Christ actually turned water to wine in John 2, His first miracle. Some have tried to say that this word here means "grape juice," but they cannot prove that from the prevailing use of the word oinos. The same word is used throughout this passage to speak about wine.

This wine was potentially intoxicating. Didn't Christ know that there were potential alcoholics there? Did He not know that wine was used in pagan temples? Did He not know that there were problems with drunkenness in His culture (for there was)? Yet He made six waterpots of approximately 40 gallons each of good wine. Gee, that is about 240 gallons of wine! The arguments simply do not stand up to the Word of God.

God does not promote abstinence. He promotes the proper use of His good gifts. In order to say otherwise one would have to deny the example of our Lord, who knowing that people would be following His example in keeping God's law, would have abstained completely if that had been the law of God for us to follow. The people that Jesus really perturbed during His day were the Pharisees. You see, the Pharisees added all of these laws and traditions to the law of God, making void the commandments of God by their man made commandments (Matt 15).

The Pharisees, like the many Christians today, believed that external things such as not washing hands ritualistically before eating defiled a person. Jesus response to the Pharisees was:

Matt. 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

The principle here is that external things of God's creation are not in and of themselves evil. Evil is within the heart of man, not in the things which he puts in his mouth (which would include alcohol!). But just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day, many professing believers want to judge their spirituality by external things; e.g., "I don't do this," "I go to church," "I don't drink alcohol," "I don't use tobacco," "I don't dance," etc. These are all things that make us feel spiritual, but they are not God's standards of spirituality. God's standard of spirituality goes to the heart; i.e., that which comes out of man. Because while one may have "external" righteousness and look real "spiritual" before the world, his heart is corrupt. Paul warns us that spirituality would be judged by these things, and he warns believers against this heresy.

Col. 2:16-17, 20-23 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ . . . Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

He also says in another place:

1Tim. 4:1-5 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

Though wine is not specifically mentioned, the principle is there. All of God's creation is good and can be used for good and enjoyment when left in its proper context. Those who say otherwise are, according to Paul, promoting "doctrines of demons." One thing that I hope you can see is that my position is clearly the biblical position on the matter.

I have not appealed to you on some emotional or some experiential argument. Some will say that nothing good comes from the use of alcohol. "My father was a drunkard, and I hate the stuff." These people believe that all of those who promote the use of alcohol in moderation have never had bad experiences in their lives with it. Not true !

My biological father was a drunkard. I have seen the devastating effects of the abuse of alcohol. But my thinking is held captive by the Word of God and not my experience. God's Word dictates what I believe and do, not emotions or experience. My opinions and personal scruples are not the dictates of God. I cannot judge someone liberal or conservative based upon my personal opinions.

There are some objections that have been raise with which I had to deal and have dealt with Scripturally. First, there is the issue of the potential alcoholic (or tobacco abuser; again, insert your favorite external standard of righteousness). The first thing to say about being a drunkard is that this is not a disease, as if it could be cured medically. Drunkenness is a moral problem ground in a lack of self-control. For the Christian, the Spirit supplies this needed attribute to our lives (cf. Gal 5:22-23). Addictions are modern euphemisms for a lack of self control so people can blame their evil on something that "they cannot help." This is simply not true.

Those who are in the Spirit do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5). You know, people focus in on this alcohol issue as the big abuse. But God condemns abuse of food, sex, etc. Every time I take food to my mouth I am a potential glutton. Every time I have sexual relations with my wife I am a potential adulterer (another thing my biological father was). The logic is absurd when taken to its conclusion. Just as with sex and food, left in proper context, the use (not abuse) of all of God's gifts is good and enjoyable. Taken out of proper use and context they are deplorable and immoral.

The second objection is that the Nazarites vow included the abstinence from alcohol. Actually, though, their abstinence was much more inclusive. It involved abstinence from ALL fruits of the vine including grapes, raisins and the skin of grapes (cf. Numbers 6). After the time of his vow was complete and he went through the proper ceremonies, the Nazarite was free from his vow, and God specifically says "He may drink wine" (Numbers 6:20). If God thought it was the best thing for people to do, why didn't He require this of all people? Why didn't He, at least, keep the Nazarites from drinking wine for the rest of their lives?

Let me say at this point, those who wish to abstain from alcohol are welcomed to do so. BUT they are to realize that its not because God commanded them to do so, only by personal conviction (which is a sign of a weak believer). Paul deals extensively with these issues in 1Cor 8--10 and Rom 14. In Romans 14 Paul deals specifically with the eating of meat and drinking of wine. He categorize those who can do these things as "strong" and those who cannot as "weak." This deals with a trained or untrained conscience on these matters.

The point I want to make here is that neither the strong nor the weak can judge the other based upon his own personal convictions that do not deal specifically with God's Word. We do judge things such as immorality (which takes on many forms, 1Cor 5), but on these issues one brother does not have the right to judge another brother. That would include categorizing another as "liberal" or "conservative" based on these non-essential issues!

To say that it is a bad witness before the world is also erroneous. We have led this world to believe through unbiblical views on alcohol that Christianity is a "touch not, taste not" religion based on external morality. The truth of the matter is that it is a sin to preach or teach anything to be a sin that God does not declare to be a sin. That is adding to the Word of God. This is precisely what the lost Pharisees did, and Jesus condemned them for it.

A good witness would be to help people understand that all of God's creation is good and can only be enjoyed if used within proper context and for His glory. I could keep going on about this, but I hope you can see that I have done my homework. My views come straight from the Bible. I refuse to be controlled by man's commandments and traditions. When all is said and done, I am not the one who could be classified as a liberal here. It is my understanding that conservatives believe the Bible, liberals do not. I believe what I have shown you is that I do believe and practice the Bible. I welcome any comments, criticisms or admonitions, but I only take them from God's Word. If I can be proven by sound reason and the Word of God to be wrong, I will change. But if sound reason and God's Word cannot be used to change my thinking, I can do no other. My conscience is bound by the Word of God.

Here I stand!

Passionate for God's truth,

Bill
 
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MPaul

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I think it is obvious that Scripture prohibits being drunk but not having a glass of wine. However, it was impossible to say this in a Pentecostal church for a long time -- the flood of opposition that came against such a statement was angry and overwhelming, degrading the person who took such a position. Still, in visiting Pentecostals in their homes, wine often was found, with people then saying it was OK to have a glass of wine, but noting it could not be brought out in the open.

However, the Nazarite vow is interesting. Under this vow a person could not drink any wine or alcohol. And Samson under the vow experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in a mighty way. I think originally Pentecostals came against drinking wine at all, because they felt it would keep away the power of the Holy Spirit manifesting. But as I've said before, a common complaint today is, that the Holy Spirit does not manifest as he did in the past. So who knows really... about the early Pentecostals. I have noticed that a glass of wine before I go to bed can help me sleep much better.
 
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kerr4y

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Thank you BereanTodd. Your pastor friend laid out his argument well, though I notice he skims over those prohibited from drinking wine & deals with only 1 exception - the Nazarite. Ask him, what of the priest?

What of the Scriptures that encourage abstinence, such as Proverbs 34:4 & 5?

It is a shame that people only see the miracle of Cana as the production of wine [let's all start home brewing!] for it was not the purpose of the miracle. The purpose was that they might believe that he was the Son of God - the whole purpose of John's gospel.

I think it is a shame that people use this as proof that Jesus permitted the drinking of alcohol for, if that is the case in the quantity he produced it he certainly encouraged drunkedness.

However, I have already said that I abstain and that I encourage abstinence because I think it is better. I do not think that alcohol is the major cause for the aparent lack of the manifestation of the Spirit. The major cause is unbelief, which I feel is the cause for this argument about what we eat and drink.

Let me see... I am considered "old school" because I don't drink alcohol, I have short hair and encourage all men to be as I am, I encourage women to cover their head when they pray or prophesy, and I do not encourage women to seek places of authority in the church [actually I don't encourage anyone to look for positions of authority]. I don't enforce these things, I encourage them, and the reason I do not change my views is because I have seen terrible results in the lives of those who have - eternally destructive results. I also see that I have Scripture that supports me in doing so.

Of course I am free to do these things since I am but the least of the brethren. I do not claim a position in the church, nor do I hold a title. All I seek to do is obey Jesus' command to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature".

Because I am a brother as you are, or more lowly than you if you consider yourself to hold position in the church, you are free to join me in my faith or to reject it. Not doing as I say is not going to send you to hell. My calling is to serve, not to be served.

If anything I say prospers you in the gospel I am glad. If not, well that's okay, but I will continue to preach as I believe. What you do is not up to me, but up to you.

If you wish me to give defense for what I believe, I am happy, but if you are merely contentious, please go your way and love and serve the Lord. I love you.
 
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MPaul

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One theory is that the abstinence movement arose in the 19th century due the rise of the Industrial Age. Thus, there came about “blue collar” neighborhoods with working class bars that led to drunkenness being common and all kinds of unseemly behavior. Before the Industrial Revolution, there were cottage industries, and employees lived with families and were considered part of the family, which did not lead to the kind of problems with drunkenness found in working class neighborhoods – bar fights, foul language, coarse manners, etc. Therefore, it was held that taking a drink encouraged drunkenness which led to high levels of sin in society. Abstinence by law would lead to less sin and a more Christian society. I definitely do believe that drinking alcohol can lead to the wrong example and take people down a wrong path. And there is a passage in Proverbs (I forget the citation), that refers to not gathering with the wrong people, which makes visiting bars seem unscriptural. So… if people are going to have a drink without getting drunk, they should think about the context of what they are doing, and how it is interpreted by others. Perhaps, they should only do so in the privacy of their own homes. In any case, drinking alcohol is only for mature judgment…. but I do know many mature Christians, and also others who only think they are
 
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stormdancer0

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Let's let God's word have the LAST word on the alcohol thing:

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat (or in this case, alcohol), now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat (or drink), for whom Christ died. (Italics mine, of course!!)
(Romans 14:13-15)

If you drink around those who believe that drink is "unclean" or evil, you are grieving them. Therefore, you should not do it. If you are around those who are okay with it, I believe it is okay, providing you do not drink in excess. Fair enough???
 
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JC_Crust

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Thank you BereanTodd. Your pastor friend laid out his argument well, though I notice he skims over those prohibited from drinking wine & deals with only 1 exception - the Nazarite. Ask him, what of the priest?

What of the Scriptures that encourage abstinence, such as Proverbs 34:4 & 5?

It is a shame that people only see the miracle of Cana as the production of wine [let's all start home brewing!] for it was not the purpose of the miracle. The purpose was that they might believe that he was the Son of God - the whole purpose of John's gospel.

I think it is a shame that people use this as proof that Jesus permitted the drinking of alcohol for, if that is the case in the quantity he produced it he certainly encouraged drunkedness.

However, I have already said that I abstain and that I encourage abstinence because I think it is better. I do not think that alcohol is the major cause for the aparent lack of the manifestation of the Spirit. The major cause is unbelief, which I feel is the cause for this argument about what we eat and drink.

Let me see... I am considered "old school" because I don't drink alcohol, I have short hair and encourage all men to be as I am, I encourage women to cover their head when they pray or prophesy, and I do not encourage women to seek places of authority in the church [actually I don't encourage anyone to look for positions of authority]. I don't enforce these things, I encourage them, and the reason I do not change my views is because I have seen terrible results in the lives of those who have - eternally destructive results. I also see that I have Scripture that supports me in doing so.

Of course I am free to do these things since I am but the least of the brethren. I do not claim a position in the church, nor do I hold a title. All I seek to do is obey Jesus' command to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature".

Because I am a brother as you are, or more lowly than you if you consider yourself to hold position in the church, you are free to join me in my faith or to reject it. Not doing as I say is not going to send you to hell. My calling is to serve, not to be served.

If anything I say prospers you in the gospel I am glad. If not, well that's okay, but I will continue to preach as I believe. What you do is not up to me, but up to you.

If you wish me to give defense for what I believe, I am happy, but if you are merely contentious, please go your way and love and serve the Lord. I love you.

it seems like youre judging people who dont do the same thing as you like youre better than them. nobody is less righteous because they enjoy a drink.
 
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Rose_bud

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I think the key in most things is moderation, and of course not being a stumbling block to your brother and sister, and having a clear conscience...
If you feel convicted for drinking alcohol, doesn't necessarily I am... in most cases it is cultural, for one, brought up in a home, where alcohol was the cause of strife in a family, usually that believer wouldn't see alcohol in the same light as someone who had no such problems.

In any case nobody would take you seriously if you were evangelising, all drunk on whiskey or something. (at least where I'm from).

As for the other regulations, most Pentecostals have there own church constitution.
 
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Guitarslinger87

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Someone once told me this when we were discussing what is right and wrong:

"How would you feel if Jesus came back while you were doing it?" "It" being drinking, watching a certain movie or TV show etc.

I'm not perfect but when I decide to do something I try and ask myself, "Would I want to be doing this when Jesus comes back?"

I find it helps sometimes.
 
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kerr4y

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it seems like youre judging people who dont do the same thing as you like youre better than them. nobody is less righteous because they enjoy a drink.

sorry you see it that way. Depends on their motive for enjoying a drink I suppose. I have a sister (in The Lord) in church [she's in a lot of pain right now, pray for her] who has a wine with her meal. She knows I practise and teach abstinence but does not feel condemned by my stance. She's a beautiful, faithful person and I commend her to all. She told me she has wine.

I said to her, "Please feel free. Its your liberty in Jesus Christ."

But it does not stop me from encouraging abstinence, and she's humble enough to allow me the privellege.

Two others in our church, very dear people to me, also drink. Besides this they are divorced and remarried [should I say, he is divorced and married her]. He was greatly troubled about the divorcees in ministry thing, and said to me, "If a divorced and remarried person can't be in leadership, how can I lead others to Christ?"

I said, "Be like me. Don't hold an official position in church. Just share Jesus with others, and if God has you doing it in a pulpit - great! Let's let God work that out."

We have open ministry in our church where each one is free to share a testimony, an encouragement, a word. He is our most frequent participator.

I'm glad Jesus is the one who sets us free cos I'm not real good at it.

Sorry if I offended.
 
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Big Drew

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I'm not aware of any regulations the Pentecostals add. Regarding dress codes, Pentecostals attitudes toward dress are quite more relaxed than most denominations.

Yep...the old school Pentecostals were strict on dress though...my denomination, International Pentecostal Holiness, used to be this way, along with the Church of God, and some others. Men couldn't show their forearms...women couldn't cut their hair or wear makeup...women had to wear skirts to their ankles. Shorts were absolutely forbidden...thankfully most have gotten away from that.

I know a couple of the traditional CoG's in my area that I've ministered at they still kept the old "dress code"...

Another thing the old timers were against was any type of worldly entertainment...going to the movies, radio, watching tv...etc...

The only thing that's really still around is abstinence from alcohol and tobacco...but many evangelical denoms have the same policies. In the IPHC it's frowned upon if you drink or use tobacco, but they aren't gonna run you off for it...the only exception is that clergy cannot drink at all, or they'll lose their license.
 
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Jakihe

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I can understand why they did it, though. Jesus drank wine because it was dangerous to drink the water - the same reason they still drink wine in France so much.

That's not true about France, at all. :) The water there is not bad; they drink because it is customary and alcoholism is more than 5 times lower than in America.
In 1 Timothy Paul recommends wine for health reasons, just as doctors do today.
 
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JC_Crust

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Yep...the old school Pentecostals were strict on dress though...my denomination, International Pentecostal Holiness, used to be this way, along with the Church of God, and some others. Men couldn't show their forearms...women couldn't cut their hair or wear makeup...women had to wear skirts to their ankles. Shorts were absolutely forbidden...thankfully most have gotten away from that.

I know a couple of the traditional CoG's in my area that I've ministered at they still kept the old "dress code"...

Another thing the old timers were against was any type of worldly entertainment...going to the movies, radio, watching tv...etc...

The only thing that's really still around is abstinence from alcohol and tobacco...but many evangelical denoms have the same policies. In the IPHC it's frowned upon if you drink or use tobacco, but they aren't gonna run you off for it...the only exception is that clergy cannot drink at all, or they'll lose their license.


ive known a few people who werent pentecostal that kept that same dress code. i always assumed they were until i got to know them. i wonder why ive never met anyone who judged me for not dressing like that or for watching certain movies and stuff but when it comes to drinking the hammer comes down on me pretty hard. any thoughts?
 
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Big Drew

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ive known a few people who werent pentecostal that kept that same dress code. i always assumed they were until i got to know them. i wonder why ive never met anyone who judged me for not dressing like that or for watching certain movies and stuff but when it comes to drinking the hammer comes down on me pretty hard. any thoughts?

I know that the Church of Christ (Campbellites) keeps to some of these same restrictions, and more...but that's probably a subject for another thread, and one I would have to tread lightly one....but I digress...

The basis for drinking and tobacco use, as I understand it comes from this verse...

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Along with the other verses that speak of not being drunk. Some tend to think that having one drink equates to being drunk...but anyone who has ever drank knows good and well that this isn't the case.

Admittedly, I used to have a bit of a drinking problem...I wasn't an alcoholic, IMO, because I could go months or even years without having a drink...but then when I did decide to I'd end up drinking too much...eventually I figured out that if I only had two or three beers I'd be fine, or one glass of bourbon instead of 4 or 5...I was still completely coherent and functional. People just have to know their limit...moderation is the key...but for whatever reason folks see abstaining as the key.

I look at it more as a Romans 14 type thing..

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.


So...if you like to have a glass of wine with your meal, or drink a couple of beers while you're watching the baseball game, no big deal...unless it could cause your brother or sister, who may be a recovering alcoholic, to stumble.

From what I gather this is mostly an Evangelical/Pentecostal thing...most Protestant groups and Catholics just believe in moderation.
 
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lilmissmontana

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So...if you like to have a glass of wine with your meal, or drink a couple of beers while you're watching the baseball game, no big deal...unless it could cause your brother or sister, who may be a recovering alcoholic, to stumble.

:thumbsup: Totally huge thing to consider!!

I don't really have much to add ... I'm still in the same place ... all things in moderation.

The original question concerned what things ... not just alcohol ...

I think each denomination has had it's thises and thats that over the years have been loosened ... the Pentecostal seems to get hammered with it ... but then again, I don't spend time in the other forums ... maybe they do, as well. I know Mormons have a strict dress code ... Jehovah's have their things, etc ... nuns where their attire ... the list is long ... ALL of which, imho, are man's additions to the Word. I've been on the subject of what defiles a man ... it's pretty clear what you where ... or eat ... or what you drive or what you live in ... none of those defile you. The problem begins when those mandates begin to dispel the grace Jesus came with. What can those things possibly have to do with loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbor as yourself!

It would seem fair to conclude that the Pentecostal denomination is no different than any other in the respect that they've ALL added to the Word ... and that they've all loosened their reigns ... and that they all grow and change and sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad ... it's not about any of that ... it's about love ...

Found a little book yesterday in an old box of junk at a junk store ... these are in the book ... I think they fit ...

It ain't no sin to be glad you're alive. ~ Bruce Springsteen ~

To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often. ~ Winston Churchill ~

Interestingly, the word perfect in the bible means mature.

all jmo
 
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JC_Crust

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:thumbsup: Totally huge thing to consider!!

I don't really have much to add ... I'm still in the same place ... all things in moderation.

The original question concerned what things ... not just alcohol ...

I think each denomination has had it's thises and thats that over the years have been loosened ... the Pentecostal seems to get hammered with it ... but then again, I don't spend time in the other forums ... maybe they do, as well. I know Mormons have a strict dress code ... Jehovah's have their things, etc ... nuns where their attire ... the list is long ... ALL of which, imho, are man's additions to the Word. I've been on the subject of what defiles a man ... it's pretty clear what you where ... or eat ... or what you drive or what you live in ... none of those defile you. The problem begins when those mandates begin to dispel the grace Jesus came with. What can those things possibly have to do with loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbor as yourself!

It would seem fair to conclude that the Pentecostal denomination is no different than any other in the respect that they've ALL added to the Word ... and that they've all loosened their reigns ... and that they all grow and change and sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad ... it's not about any of that ... it's about love ...

Found a little book yesterday in an old box of junk at a junk store ... these are in the book ... I think they fit ...

It ain't no sin to be glad you're alive. ~ Bruce Springsteen ~

To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often. ~ Winston Churchill ~

Interestingly, the word perfect in the bible means mature.

all jmo

i do agree with your statement about moderation. its just unfortunate that the ones who get out of hand give other people warrant to condemn the ones who do it at all.
 
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I heard Pentecostal has many regulations that were "added" to the gospel. What are these things? I know the dress-code regulation is one of the few. I just want to know what else was added to the gospel by man (The New Testament). Because I don't want to focus on those things, but rather set my focus directly on Jesus and the gospel alone.

Thank You!


Good question Jason, bear with me for a second and let me ask a question to help you, K?:)

What IS the Gospel?

(cause if u dont know what it IS then u cannot kno what can be added to it because "it" is not defined)
 
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