What is worship?

[Tangible]

I'm still curious how folks quote "thou shalt not make any graven image" as though that is the complete command - and then go on to explain such things as the bronze serpent, the cherubim on the mercy seat, the bullocks under the basin, and all the other "graven images" that God actually commanded to be made ...

Quite so. It's not the images themselves that are prohibited, it's the worshipping them as other gods. Idolatry is condemned, not art. God would be contradicting himself if he forbade making images - because he made an image of himself!

Colossians 1

He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Hebrews 1

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

 

[Albion]

To those who believe that Catholics 'worship' statues...define worship.

The Catholic Church itself defines saint worship as "worship." Not as the same "worship" accorded God, but as "worship" nonetheless.

As for what we believe, there's a wide gulf between what some people believe and what the Church teaches, for one thing. For another, people don't believe the Infant of Prague heals anyone or influences the weather. We believe that the person represented by the statue does those things.

This wording makes it sound like you accept that saint worship is going on, but it's just that you're concerned that people not think it's the statue itself that is the object of the worship.

 

[KTatis]

I'm still curious how folks quote "thou shalt not make any graven image" as though that is the complete command - and then go on to explain such things as the bronze serpent, the cherubim on the mercy seat, the bullocks under the basin, and all the other "graven images" that God actually commanded to be made ...

I already explained this on page 3 but here it is.

Very good question but It don't matter if they make a statues of Jesus playing football or Jesus giving a sermon on the mount yhWH said DO NOT You shall NOT make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
so if it resides in heaven you should not even think about making images of this entity because he knows people will end up worshiping these statues just like the serpent made of brass that healed people when they looked at it, King Hezekiah destroyed it because people started worshiping it and it's been around for 700 years!! Also he had them build a serpent because it' not of heaven, it do not represent YHWH!!

And the cherubim on the ark is because YHWH himself TOLD the Hebrew children to build a those specifically on the ark alone, he didn't say go out and make more and mo. He condoned it for that time being it was a representation or emblem yHwH sent by yhwh himself!! Also it's like comparing the story of when the Hebrews went to war with the philistines nd they used the ark without YHWH's permission. Yhwh was angry about this that they would take the ark into war against the Philistines, he was angry that they would do such a thing without consulting him and asking him ergo he gave victory to the philistines but it dont stop there.

they took the ark and people died and gotten sick because they had the ark there they placed the ark next to a statue of their God and came back into the tent and the statue was destroyed into pieces. I can guarantee you YHWH did not tell the Roman Catholics build a statue of Mary and worship her instead of me also The catholic priest you and only you can forgive sins and also build more statues so people worship them. Also even the pope himself and other Catholics bow down in front of these statues but say they don't worship them however they are wrong because the bible says do not bow down in front of them!

 

[KTatis]

Quite so. It's not the images themselves that are prohibited, it's the worshipping them as other gods. Idolatry is condemned, not art. God would be contradicting himself if he forbade making images - because he made an image of himself!

Colossians 1

He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Hebrews 1

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

This has nothing to do with the premise ! Of course Christ was the image of God, haven't you read Genesis where he has made man in his image? All things are from God and bare his resemblance. Animals show love God is love, People show each other hope and that is also a form of God. Jesus showed purity and God is pure so yeah obviously he is also an image of God. HOWEVER you are missing the point:

"And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE , or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" Exodus 20:1-5 KJV

Man i copied and paste this like 5 times already and this thread is only 4 pages long is anybody listening? Now i can see why God flooded the earth in the first place.

 

[Tangible]

This has nothing to do with the premise ! Of course Christ was the image of God, haven't you read Genesis where he has made man in his image? All things are from God and bare his resemblance. Animals show love God is love, People show each other hope and that is also a form of God. Jesus showed purity and God is pure so yeah obviously he is also an image of God. HOWEVER you are missing the point:

"And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE , or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" Exodus 20:1-5 KJV

Man i copied and paste this like 5 times already and this thread is only 4 pages long is anybody listening? Now i can see why God flooded the earth in the first place.

You're just emphasizing the first part of the phrase. You're literally taking only one part of a sentence and saying that is a complete command.

It's not about making "graven images" apart from "bowing thyself down to them nor serving them". It's not prohibiting art. It's prohibiting idolatry. Otherwise :

1) God would be doing something that was sinful (creating an image of himself in Christ, creating man in his image) and
B) God would be commanding his people to do something sinful (make images of bulls and cherubim and palm trees and grape clusters and golden tumors).

I don't know how to make it any clearer.

And no amount of formatting is going to make your position correct.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I already explained this on page 3 but here it is.

Very good question but It don't matter if they make a statues of Jesus playing football or Jesus giving a sermon on the mount yhWH said DO NOT You shall NOT make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
so if it resides in heaven you should not even think about making images of this entity because he knows people will end up worshiping these statues just like the serpent made of brass that healed people when they looked at it, King Hezekiah destroyed it because people started worshiping it and it's been around for 700 years!! Also he had them build a serpent because it' not of heaven, it do not represent YHWH!!

And the cherubim on the ark is because YHWH himself TOLD the Hebrew children to build a those specifically on the ark alone, he didn't say go out and make more and mo. He condoned it for that time being it was a representation or emblem yHwH sent by yhwh himself!! Also it's like comparing the story of when the Hebrews went to war with the philistines nd they used the ark without YHWH's permission. Yhwh was angry about this that they would take the ark into war against the Philistines, he was angry that they would do such a thing without consulting him and asking him ergo he gave victory to the philistines but it dont stop there.

they took the ark and people died and gotten sick because they had the ark there they placed the ark next to a statue of their God and came back into the tent and the statue was destroyed into pieces. I can guarantee you YHWH did not tell the Roman Catholics build a statue of Mary and worship her instead of me also The catholic priest you and only you can forgive sins and also build more statues so people worship them. Also even the pope himself and other Catholics bow down in front of these statues but say they don't worship them however they are wrong because the bible says do not bow down in front of them!

So basically, are you saying that you believe -

God commanded man to make no image of anything that is in heaven (to do so is a sin).

EXCEPT - God told them directly to go ahead and make the Cherubim, so in that case it's ok?

Most people would say that God never contradicts Himself.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

To those who believe that Catholics 'worship' statues...define worship.

Hmmm so examining this (living in this question do catholics worship statues or do other people just need to lighten up )

So the bible says to abstain from the appearance of evil, now someone kneeling before a statue and praying "appears" to be idolatry .. so one would think .. abstain abstain!

but at the same time many christians who do not pray with statues as a visual aid, use the bible the same way.

so not sure if there's an issue here or guilt of another issue manifesting as blame towards something similar in another practice.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think we really need to remember that worship is something that comes from a person's heart, and how can we discern whether or not someone is worshiping?

A woman visits a grave where a statue of the Virgin Mary sits in place of a headstone. She prostrates herself at the grave, spends a long time there, weeping, whispering something. Is she just grieving? Maybe. Is she venerating the statue or the Virgin? Maybe. Is she actually worshiping the statue itself, or the Virgin? Maybe. My point is, she COULD be doing any of these things, or something else, but how can we know?

Would it matter if the scenario was of a man sitting alone in a church building, with a bound Bible in his hands, weeping, whispering, kissing the Bible. Is he perhaps grieving or in repentance? Maybe. Is he venerating the word of God, expressing his esteem and love for the Scriptures? Maybe. Or worshiping the actual paper and binding? Maybe.

A person may make assumptions about what they THINK is going on, and that will probably be affected by what they think of the scenario, what they think of the faith of the person they observe, and their own faith. Some people in fact are absolutely SURE that they know what is going on in someone else's heart. But this is dangerous ground. God in heaven sees the hearts of men, and will judge every action and word. But that is not our right or place. We do not see into their hearts. And if we presume to make that judgment, do we not usurp the place of God?

(And it is worth remembering that the judgement we mete out to others is the same judgment we will be judged with - do we really want to condemn others based on what we THINK is in their hearts?)

 

[Root of Jesse]

Hmmm so examining this (living in this question do catholics worship statues or do other people just need to lighten up )

So the bible says to abstain from the appearance of evil, now someone kneeling before a statue and praying "appears" to be idolatry .. so one would think .. abstain abstain!

but at the same time many christians who do not pray with statues as a visual aid, use the bible the same way.

so not sure if there's an issue here or guilt of another issue manifesting as blame towards something similar in another practice.

The Bible, Jesus himself, says we should not judge others.

 

[KTatis]

You're just emphasizing the first part of the phrase. You're literally taking only one part of a sentence and saying that is a complete command.

It's not about making "graven images" apart from "bowing thyself down to them nor serving them". It's not prohibiting art. It's prohibiting idolatry. Otherwise :

1) God would be doing something that was sinful (creating an image of himself in Christ, creating man in his image) and
B) God would be commanding his people to do something sinful (make images of bulls and cherubim and palm trees and grape clusters and golden tumors).

I don't know how to make it any clearer.

And no amount of formatting is going to make your position correct.

1) God would be doing something that was sinful (creating an image of himself in Christ, creating man in his image)
oh really?

B) God would be commanding his people to do something sinful (make images of bulls and cherubim and palm trees and grape clusters and golden tumors).
Oh really?

wait a minute speedy Gonzales you are confusing human morals with spiritual morals, jut because God do it don't mean we have the right do it.Let me make it clear for you. example, A father has 3 kids (KTatis, Kylissa and Tangible) and they all must cross a weak bridge to get home. The father is walking with KTatis and says my son we are at the bridge but it is weak and not very sturdy your brothers and sisters are in the restroom at the moment but when they come tell them i said wait here we must all go one by one or else we will fall into the pit below us and become dinner for the lions. I don't normally do this and it goes against my word but son i want you to hold the flashlight and point it ahead of me as i walk across the bridge so i know where im going as for it is dark. Keep in mind father is 100% against electricity because this is an amish culture family but he must do it just this once to help his family. But Lo and behold Tangible and Kylissa show up at the scene, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] KTatis you are holding a flashlight?? Yes father told me to hold the flashlight as we cross the bridge one by one. Tangible impossible father said we always stick together no matter what. Kylissa screams at KT your liar because father always said never to use electricity!

Tangible runs cross the bridge believing KTatis was a liar and he and father falls into the lion pit. 17 years later as grown adults KTatis and Kylissa are grown ups now. KTatis you was right a long time ago we should have listened and never crossed the bridge. No my sister our father was right, i was simply carrying out orders. Come KTatis let us make marry and celebrate my daughters birthday with her newest laptop. But sister father said never to use electricity, it is our culture and heritage. So basically, are you saying that you believe - Father commanded us to use no electronics and to do so is
disrespectful to our religion and creed? EXCEPT - father told you directly go ahead and use the flashlight so in that case its ok? Tangible would say that father never contradicts Himself. But guess what sis tangible walked on the bridge when i said NO! tangible put us in the situation we are in now because he wanted to follow his own beliefs and own rules he wanted to be right he couldn't bare the thought of being wrong and look what it cost him... now if he had simply listened to me we would be better off. So why do you take your advice from sinners and mockers and scoffers. You have been deceived my sister change before it's too late! Father will not be happy you are doing this, he only permitted the flashlight to help us out that moment.

So you mean to tell me he couldn't use a candle instead or waited so all four of us to get together and we all could have crossed the bridge then. May i remind you KT father is powerful rich and super smart he can do anything why must he go against his word and use technology to save us?? Sis you must have forgotten the proverb father has given us 17 years ago (proverbs 1:7) the fear of the LORD is the beginning of understanding. Fools despise wisdom and instruction. Because if feared him like you suppose to you wouldn't dare go against his instructions it don't matter if he told me build a flashlight or hold it for 3 days straight, if you understood your father like your suppose to then you wouldn't dare twist his words you do not fear him and-- Kylissa interrupts this has nothing to do with my daughters tablet.

So basically, are you saying that you believe -

God commanded man to make no image of anything that is in heaven (to do so is a sin).

EXCEPT - God told them directly to go ahead and make the Cherubim, so in that case it's ok?

Most people would say that God never contradicts Himself.

Step 1. Swallow your pride

Step 2. Read hosea 4:6 and then live by it and adapt to it and tke it into consideration.

Step 3. then red Rev 12:9 and live by it and adapt to it and take it into consideration.

step 4. if you followed steps 1 - 3 perfectly then nd only then read John 8:32

Sincerly your brother in faith, KTatis

 

[Tangible]

Grace and peace to you in the name of God our Father through his Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I think we really need to remember that worship is something that comes from a person's heart, and how can we discern whether or not someone is worshiping?

A woman visits a grave where a statue of the Virgin Mary sits in place of a headstone. She prostrates herself at the grave, spends a long time there, weeping, whispering something. Is she just grieving? Maybe. Is she venerating the statue or the Virgin? Maybe. Is she actually worshiping the statue itself, or the Virgin? Maybe. My point is, she COULD be doing any of these things, or something else, but how can we know?

Would it matter if the scenario was of a man sitting alone in a church building, with a bound Bible in his hands, weeping, whispering, kissing the Bible. Is he perhaps grieving or in repentance? Maybe. Is he venerating the word of God, expressing his esteem and love for the Scriptures? Maybe. Or worshiping the actual paper and binding? Maybe.

A person may make assumptions about what they THINK is going on, and that will probably be affected by what they think of the scenario, what they think of the faith of the person they observe, and their own faith. Some people in fact are absolutely SURE that they know what is going on in someone else's heart. But this is dangerous ground. God in heaven sees the hearts of men, and will judge every action and word. But that is not our right or place. We do not see into their hearts. And if we presume to make that judgment, do we not usurp the place of God?

(And it is worth remembering that the judgement we mete out to others is the same judgment we will be judged with - do we really want to condemn others based on what we THINK is in their hearts?)

Right. Once, I was flying home, and had to sit in the middle seat of the last row of the plane, and a big woman sat next to me. I'm big myself. And on top of it all, there was a screaming child and a woman full of tatoos and piercings in the row across. I was grumbling in discomfort, and then the woman next to me went to sit across the aisle to comfort the boy. He was autistic, and the mom was having difficulties. What I thought was going on, in my heart, was way different than the reality.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Right. Once, I was flying home, and had to sit in the middle seat of the last row of the plane, and a big woman sat next to me. I'm big myself. And on top of it all, there was a screaming child and a woman full of tatoos and piercings in the row across. I was grumbling in discomfort, and then the woman next to me went to sit across the aisle to comfort the boy. He was autistic, and the mom was having difficulties. What I thought was going on, in my heart, was way different than the reality.

Yes, it seems sometimes we are tempted to judge what is in the hearts of our brothers and sisters, based on our own assumptions and experience. It is a very common tendency, but one the Church rightly teaches us to learn to resist. Not to mention we can get a dose of humility if we accept the lesson.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Grace and peace to you in the name of God our Father through his Son Jesus Christ.

I will add mine as well. Grace and peace, through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

I'm still curious how folks quote "thou shalt not make any graven image" as though that is the complete command - and then go on to explain such things as the bronze serpent, the cherubim on the mercy seat, the bullocks under the basin, and all the other "graven images" that God actually commanded to be made ...

It's 'thou shalt not' not 'God shalt not.'

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

It's 'thou shalt not' not 'God shalt not.'

When you control everything you can do whatever you want and it still Holy and righteous. I do not know why sinful man always judges the Judge in what He does like they can fathom His infinite wisdom.

 

[Tangible]

That means that God is not bound by his perfectly righteous character. Which means that God is a capricious god made in the image of man like the pagan gods of old. Which means that God is not God.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

That means that God is not bound by his perfectly righteous character. Which means that God is a capricious god made in the image of man like the pagan gods of old. Which means that God is not God.

Was God stoned when He impregnated Mary?

 

[~Anastasia~]

That means that God is not bound by his perfectly righteous character. Which means that God is a capricious god made in the image of man like the pagan gods of old. Which means that God is not God.

I am surprised at the lengths a person will go to - and sadly drag God's character with them - just for the sake of arguing their own interpretation of Scripture.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

I am surprised at the lengths a person will go to - and sadly drag God's character with them - just for the sake of arguing their own interpretation of Scripture.

It's not my own interpretation of Scripture, it's what Scripture clearly states. God has commanded that we make no graven images save for those He Himself commands us to make. Is this really hard to grasp? Does it really go against God's character? Has He never told us to do what He has commanded and not do what He has forbidden?

"You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2