What is worship?

[Root of Jesse]

To those who believe that Catholics 'worship' statues...define worship.

 

[brinny]

What is worship?

i saw a quote recently that has a description that i found an accurate explanation:

"To worship is to quicken the conscience by the holiness of God, to feed the mind with the truth of God, to purge the imagination by the beauty of God, to open the heart to the love of God, to devote the will to the purpose of God.” ~William Temple

 

[Root of Jesse]

What is worship?

i saw a quote recently that has a description that i found an accurate explanation:

"To worship is to quicken the conscience by the holiness of God, to feed the mind with the truth of God, to purge the imagination by the beauty of God, to open the heart to the love of God, to devote the will to the purpose of God.” ~William Temple

If you believe that Catholics worship statues, does this quote apply?

 

[brinny]

If you believe that Catholics worship statues, does this quote apply?

I was focusing on what worship is......re: the title of this thread...

unless i'm mistaken, and it's for the purpose of accusing anyone of worshiping anything other than God. If so, i mistakenly posted here in this thread.

Perhaps it would be helpful and an edifying discussion to discuss what worship is? Maybe that's a good starting point?

Would you care to respond with thoughts on the quote?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I was focusing on what worship is......re: the title of this thread...

unless i'm mistaken, and it's for the purpose of accusing anyone of worshiping anything other than God. If so, i mistakenly posted here in this thread.

Perhaps it would be helpful and an edifying discussion to discuss what worship is? Maybe that's a good starting point?

Would you care to respond with thoughts on the quote?

Thank you kindly.

That's what I'm getting at. Some Protestants are anti-Catholic because they believe we 'worship statues', 'worship Mary', etc. So I'm trying to have a discussion about what constitutes worship. If you don't throw those epithets at Catholics, you're welcome to chime in as to what constitutes worship.
Thanks for helping to clarify the purpose of the thread.

I did say I think that your quote is a good one. Well, I thought I did. Guess I did not. I do think the quote is valid and true.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Martin Luther seemed to be convinced that the Roman Church was idolatrous, and he was a 15th century priest and theologian.
Funny enough, the same kind of man the Roman Church would use, going back in history, to defend a desired or current doctrine.

However, he never thought that showing reverence through statues was idolatrous- old protestant churches themselves had statues and crucifixes. There's one down the road from me that has a giant crucifix with knee benches surrounding it.

 

[Berean777]

To those who believe that Catholics 'worship' statues...define worship.

Firstly I don't believe Catholics worship statues.

Secondly worship in its purest form is a one on one communication between the creature and the creator in the secret places of the heart. So worship is not outward, nor fleshly, nor observable to be seen by others, rather it is unseen and is reserved in the secret compartment of the heart.

True worship is when others don't even know you are in communion with God.

How it is done one may ask? It is done through devotional LOVE, for it is written you shall love your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.

It is a secret relationship not built up by outward observances, duties, ceremonies, entitlements, privileges, works or even beliefs in doctrine or church instructions/processes for that matter.

Worship in its purest is a heart to heart connection with the creator. For it was said that David was a man after God's heart, therefore those who are called are faithful after God's heart.

It is a lovers relationship that transcends time and space and has no third party loitering around as a bridge or scaffold, but rather it is a personal one on one secret relationship built on love, trust and obedience to the creator's will.

Worship has nothing to do with others, such as priests, bishops, patriarchs, popes, saints, but rather it is a one on one relationship that is outside of our interactions with others.

If we need a third party to be part of our worship, then I believe that this is not worship in its purest form, but rather is a dialogue between a party of three or more.

We can have communion with others joined to Christ but when it comes down to worship it is heart to heart and you can't reach your lovers heart through the heart of another, you must approach that heart directly yourself.

 

[~Anastasia~]

To those who believe that Catholics 'worship' statues...define worship.

Hi Jesse!

Although we don't have statues in our Church, I also don't believe Catholics "worship statues" ... at least not as a group. So I'm not tossing that out there. Just interested to see how your thread develops.

I agree that worship is something inward, that is known to the person who is doing it. In that case, yes, it's POSSIBLE to worship a statue, but that is not what generally happens. It's also possible for a Protestant to "worship" their Bible ... literally the cover, pages, and type - but I think that is not what generally happens either. Idolatry of all kinds is possible - but I don't think that is what 99.999% of Christians are doing with any religious object, whether statue, icon, Bible, cross, or what have you.

 

[Ashes of Eden]

Well, say, the Infant of Prague baby doll for example. Bowing before it, touching it, or whatever you all do with it, and believing that it can heal you and influence the weather doesn't help the "we don't worship statues" argument.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Martin Luther seemed to be convinced that the Roman Church was idolatrous, and he was a 15th century priest and theologian.
Funny enough, the same kind of man the Roman Church would use, going back in history, to defend a desired or current doctrine.

However, he never thought that showing reverence through statues was idolatrous- old protestant churches themselves had statues and crucifixes. There's one down the road from me that has a giant crucifix with knee benches surrounding it.

Yeah some people just need something to stare at when they pray or worship God. It doesn't necessarily mean they are worshiping the object itself, but it is something they associate with God. It helps focus. Many people feel like they pray better in front of the cross,. Are they worshipping the literal cross itself? A bit chunk of wood is no different than a well carved statue.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Firstly I don't believe Catholics worship statues.

Secondly worship in its purest form is a one on one communication between the creature and the creator in the secret places of the heart. So worship is not outward, nor fleshly, nor observable to be seen by others, rather it is unseen and is reserved in the secret compartment of the heart.

True worship is when others don't even know you are in communion with God.

How it is done one may ask? It is done through devotional LOVE, for it is written you shall love your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.

It is a secret relationship not built up by outward observances, duties, ceremonies, entitlements, privileges, works or even beliefs in doctrine or church instructions/processes for that matter.

Worship in its purest is a heart to heart connection with the creator. For it was said that David was a man after God's heart, therefore those who are called are faithful after God's heart.

It is a lovers relationship that transcends time and space and has no third party loitering around as a bridge or scaffold, but rather it is a personal one on one secret relationship built on love, trust and obedience to the creator's will.

Worship has nothing to do with others, such as priests, bishops, patriarchs, popes, saints, but rather it is a one on one relationship that is outside of our interactions with others.

If we need a third party to be part of our worship, then I believe that this is not worship in its purest form, but rather is a dialogue between a party of three or more.

We can have communion with others joined to Christ but when it comes down to worship it is heart to heart and you can't reach your lovers heart through the heart of another, you must approach that heart directly yourself.

I believe that today's society, people put a lot of things ahead of God. Their job, their money, their possessions, and this is a form of worship.
But you're right. Saint Faustina Kowalska was in very close communion with Jesus, and most around her didn't even know it, until they read her diary.
Worshipping God is purest when we love Him for who He is, not for what He does for us.

I do know that people seem to outwardly be worshipping statues in Catholic Church, but this requires someone to judge the heart of the person they're accusing of such, and that's not what Jesus would have us do. There are a lot of things that appear as one thing but really are something else.
One point I would disagree with you on...our Sunday Mass is the highest form of worship we have, and we cannot do it without consecrated priests, which includes bishops, patriarchs, popes, and many saints. They don't enter into dialogue, they lead us, as a body, in right worship.
Thanks for your contribution.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well, say, the Infant of Prague baby doll for example. Bowing before it, touching it, or whatever you all do with it, and believing that it can heal you and influence the weather doesn't help the "we don't worship statues" argument.

How does "bowing before it, touching it, or whatever you all do with it" constitute worship? Those are common actions we do every day in many situations. As for what we believe, there's a wide gulf between what some people believe and what the Church teaches, for one thing. For another, people don't believe the Infant of Prague heals anyone or influences the weather. We believe that the person represented by the statue does those things.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Martin Luther seemed to be convinced that the Roman Church was idolatrous, and he was a 15th century priest and theologian.
Funny enough, the same kind of man the Roman Church would use, going back in history, to defend a desired or current doctrine.

However, he never thought that showing reverence through statues was idolatrous- old protestant churches themselves had statues and crucifixes. There's one down the road from me that has a giant crucifix with knee benches surrounding it.

There were lots of people in the hierarchy of whom Martin Luther's conviction would have been right. But that's not what the Church teaches.
Right.

 

[Ashes of Eden]

How does "bowing before it, touching it, or whatever you all do with it" constitute worship? Those are common actions we do every day in many situations. As for what we believe, there's a wide gulf between what some people believe and what the Church teaches, for one thing. For another, people don't believe the Infant of Prague heals anyone or influences the weather. We believe that the person represented by the statue does those things.

The person it represents doesn't exist. There is no child Jesus. There is Jesus Christ, the 33 year old man who happens to also be God, though. That aside, I also believe Jesus heals the sick and commands the weather; only I don't believe that I need to grope and bow before a baby doll for this to happen. That's how it's worship. I know all of the arguments of the RCC, therefore I also know that this whole topic and discussion is entirely pointless. Neither side will be convinced of the other.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The person it represents doesn't exist. There is no child Jesus. There is Jesus Christ, the 33 year old man who happens to also be God, though. That aside, I also believe Jesus heals the sick and commands the weather; only I don't believe that I need to grope and bow before a baby doll for this to happen. That's how it's worship. I know all of the arguments of the RCC, therefore I also know that this whole topic and discussion is entirely pointless. Neither side will be convinced of the other.

There was a child Jesus, though. So he did exist. He also existed as a 10 year old, a 15 year old, and a 30 year old. Devotion to the child Jesus has been going on for many centuries. The Child Jesus was also God, as He was in the womb of Mary.
In what way does bowing to anyone or anything constitute worship? I haven't tried to defend it or anything. I asked positively What constitutes "worship". Another side question might be "What constitutes "too much". You know, those whom Jesus healed in his ministry did, actually, humble themselves to him before he did anything. It doesn't really matter where you humble yourself, does it? If your focus is on God in any of the Three Persons, that's Who you're worshipping, not some chunk of artfully decorated wood. Again, it seems you have to be able to read hearts and minds to determine who someone is worshiping in such situations.

 

[Berean777]

Martin Luther seemed to be convinced that the Roman Church was idolatrous, and he was a 15th century priest and theologian.
Funny enough, the same kind of man the Roman Church would use, going back in history, to defend a desired or current doctrine.

However, he never thought that showing reverence through statues was idolatrous- old protestant churches themselves had statues and crucifixes. There's one down the road from me that has a giant crucifix with knee benches surrounding it.

Symbols of reflection and meditation. Just like when you look at a picture of a loved one that brings back a flood of memory.

We are creatures that require visual ques. Catholics are no different.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Symbols of reflection and meditation. Just like when you look at a picture of a loved one that brings back a flood of memory.

We are creatures that require visual ques. Catholics are no different.

I think what rose issue was the notion that the Roman Church was getting too carried away. If the formula wasn't right- if there were too many candles or a wrong incense, if the statues weren't in line with Church approval, the count of your Rosary beads, consecrating objects- this is what led to many's conviction that that the Roman Church had a growing idolatry in it's ways.

 

[Berean777]

I think what rose issue was the notion that the Roman Church was getting too carried away. If the formula wasn't right- if there were too many candles or a wrong incense, if the statues weren't in line with Church approval, the count of your Rosary beads, consecrating objects- this is what led to many's conviction that that the Roman Church had a growing idolatry in it's ways.

You are right. When we try to cook what is already cooked we ultimately end up over cooking it to the point where it no longer is edible for the masses. In this respect I don't see this as a failure of Catholics, but a failure of their hirarchy, though not all hirarchy.
When too much becomes too much the hirarchy needs to listen and not dictate.
Also too many symbols also become a detraction as I previously stated in another thread.
It almost is turning into when Paul came to the Greeks and every corner of the city was a statue even to the unknown God.
Catholics and others have fallen for this trapping unwittingly.
But that doesn't mean they are not true to Christ. We have to instruct them in love to what true worship is and what it is not. My opening comment only gives an example but is not limited to. True worship has to be done in secret, to commemorate a person with a statue had nothing to do with worship and should not be defined as such.

 

[Berean777]

I believe that today's society, people put a lot of things ahead of God. Their job, their money, their possessions, and this is a form of worship.
But you're right. Saint Faustina Kowalska was in very close communion with Jesus, and most around her didn't even know it, until they read her diary.
Worshipping God is purest when we love Him for who He is, not for what He does for us.

I do know that people seem to outwardly be worshipping statues in Catholic Church, but this requires someone to judge the heart of the person they're accusing of such, and that's not what Jesus would have us do. There are a lot of things that appear as one thing but really are something else.
One point I would disagree with you on...our Sunday Mass is the highest form of worship we have, and we cannot do it without consecrated priests, which includes bishops, patriarchs, popes, and many saints. They don't enter into dialogue, they lead us, as a body, in right worship.
Thanks for your contribution.

You are correct no one can judge the heart except God.
Sunday mass is the highest form of worship you said. That is correct and it is all members of Christ bringing individually their hearts in communion.
I disagree that priests lead us into worship. The priests are symbols in a well orchestrated form of communication that opens the dialogue on behalf of the body and the Holy Spirit is he who leads us into worship.
After all we have to worship in Spirit individually, no one can hold your hand, for it is your heart to God's heart. Priests can not be found in that connection of the heart.

 

[Berean777]

You are correct no one can judge the heart except God.
Sunday mass is the highest form of worship you said. That is correct and it is all members of Christ bringing individually their hearts in communion.
I disagree that priests lead us into worship. The priests are symbols in a well orchestrated form of communication that opens the dialogue on behalf of the body and the Holy Spirit is he who leads us into worship.
After all we have to worship in Spirit individually, no one can hold your hand, for it is your heart to God's heart. Priests can not be found in that connection of the heart.

Worship is one on one. Priests only open a dialogue on behalf of the body. The prayers are the offerings for the opening of dialogue and the rest is to the individual to make connection with the Creator.