What is True Messianic Breaking of Bread?

Yeshua HaDerekh

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Because MJ arose in the West. It's a Western religion. You might as well ask "why does Mormonism have more similarities to Protestantism than to Copticism ?" Because it descended from, and is a reaction to Protestantism, and not Copticism. Nothing baffling to it.

Well compare Eastern vs Jewish and Western vs Jewish....at least up to Yeshua. Mysticism, atonement, sin, "original sin"...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Because MJ arose in the West. It's a Western religion. You might as well ask "why does Mormonism have more similarities to Protestantism than to Copticism ?" Because it descended from, and is a reaction to Protestantism, and not Copticism. Nothing baffling to it.

The fourteeners were not western neither were the original Christians/messianics. It started in the East, not in Rome.
 
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AbbaLove

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PS AbbaLove, I think one of my favorite chapters it titled "The True Jewish Communion and the Messianic Feast." In that chapter I go into what communion was to the Jews long before the new covenant came in. I also tie in the 12 Showbread with Jewish history and the last supper parables. I couldn't resist adding a link to that chapter in this discussion! So here it is for anyone who might be interested: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Course_6.pdf
Yes, it provides spiritual food for thought with respect to the spiritual aspects of a Messianic oneg fellowship meal. A joyful, loving gathering celebrating all the great things the Lord has done and is going to do. :)

Not to change the subject, but would be interested in your insights on the following ...

Do you know what day(s) the household Passover lambs were killed, roasted and consumed by the people during the time of Yeshua? During Yeshua’s time on earth would the people kill and roast their Passover lambs before sundown on the 13th or 14th and then celebrate their Passover (Seder) Meal after sundown during the first hours of Nisan 14 or 15? Is the reason Nisan 15 is considered the 1st day of Passover (on today's Jewish calendars) because the Passover Meal wasn't eaten until Nisan 15?

Are we all in agreement that the perfect Passover Lamb, sacrificed by the High Priest, took place about the same time that Yeshua was crucified on Nisan 14?
 
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Grafted In

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He also rode into Jerusalem 4 days prior to His crucifixion. A type or image of that was the way the Jews set apart what they determined to be their best lamb to carefully examine it 4 days prior to it's sacrifice by the Priest.
Palm Sunday. I had no idea what that meant until studying The Feast Days.
 
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Hoshiyya

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The fourteeners were not western neither were the original Christians/messianics. It started in the East, not in Rome.

Modern MJ arose in the west, hence most followers of MJ are Western.

As for where it "started", (being a separate issue,) it started in the middle-east, which is culturally distinct from both "east" and "west."
 
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Alex Tennent

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Alex, the one thing that always baffled me was why did the current Messianic movement partner with Western theology and not the older Eastern Orthodox theology? Eastern Orthodoxy is the offspring of the fourteeners in the East, although even it has succumb ("judaizers") somewhat to Rome until 1054. The Eastern churches have always used unleavened bread. Even though I am Orthodox, I still try and adhere to the initial teachings of John, Polycarp and their Jewish successors of our church Fathers. Shalom
Yeshua HaDerekh I apologize I just now saw your post. For some reason I no longer get notifications on this thread so I thought there was nothing new. But to answer your question and looking at the thread I would agree with Hoshiyya where he talked of the Mormons and how they were another Western offshoot like the Protestants. One more thing my book exposes (by showing the last supper bread was leavened and that the Jews did not teach the communion ritual) is that the unleavened bread ritual of the Jehovah's Witnesses is also false, and was merely the same thing that was handed down through Rome, that the Protestants accidently took along with them. Same thing with the Mormon communion ritual, they are all an offshoot from the Roman creation and were nothing the Messiah taught or wanted. So to answer your question, I have found it amazing that the MJ fellowships do not do the communion ritual, because something deep in their DNA knew it was not right and they did not want anything to do with it. Yet because many of them came forth out of this same Western influence, and they see the English translations, so they instead see it as a Passover and therefore they use unleavened bread in a Seder service and believe that fulfils what the Messiah wanted. As for Eastern, Western, and original believers in Israel, I would say it is important to keep in mind the history, and how the Jews (believers and unbelievers) were scattered in 70 AD and at other times, and many of them ended up in the East (see Fourteenthers chapter), but like Paul said, after his departure grevious wolves would enter in not sparing the flock. After Paul, there was no one to really hold the torch of truth as it were, and things went into the dark ages. But it was the Messianic followers in the East that tried to hold out against Rome until they were rejected and outlawed. But the Messiah is doing something in our day where a nation will be born in a day and the "Beast" of Revelation 13 will be defeated (Isaiah 66:1, 5-10).
 
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Alex Tennent

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Yes, it provides spiritual food for thought with respect to the spiritual aspects of a Messianic oneg fellowship meal. A joyful, loving gathering celebrating all the great things the Lord has done and is going to do. :)

Not to change the subject, but would be interested in your insights on the following ...

Do you know what day(s) the household Passover lambs were killed, roasted and consumed by the people during the time of Yeshua? During Yeshua’s time on earth would the people kill and roast their Passover lambs before sundown on the 13th or 14th and then celebrate their Passover (Seder) Meal after sundown during the first hours of Nisan 14 or 15? Is the reason Nisan 15 is considered the 1st day of Passover (on today's Jewish calendars) because the Passover Meal wasn't eaten until Nisan 15?

Are we all in agreement that the perfect Passover Lamb, sacrificed by the High Priest, took place about the same time that Yeshua was crucified on Nisan 14?
AbbaLove, sorry I did not see your question sooner. I believe the Jewish history is very clear that the Passovers were always sacrificed on the 14th day of Nisan between noon and sundown. For that clear history from the Jewish sources, including the new and old testaments, you can read the chapter titled "Between the Evenings--The Legal Time to Slay the Passover" at this link: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Between-the-Evenings.pdf
That chapter also goes into how this clear Jewish history was obfiscated to somehow have the Messiah eating a Passover at the last supper. And I'm sure you know that the Jewish day ended at sundown, so as the Passovers were being roasted and the people were ready in their homes to eat the sun was by then either set, or setting, so the 15th day would then begin. One huge thing that has caused confusion is that Rabinnic sources often refer to the 15th day as the Passover, as this was the high Sabbath of this seven day feast. When you look in the Torah the 14th day is called the Passover, being the day the lamb was sacrificed. But at some point in time this changed, so when various sources mention the 15th day (like the Talmud) they have the 15th day in mind. So when the Talmud says Yeshua was hung on a tree on the eve of Passover, to them that meant the few hour period as the 14th day was ending. Just like Christmas eve is the hours before the 25th day.
 
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AbbaLove

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... you can read the chapter titled "Between the Evenings--The Legal Time to Slay the Passover" at this link: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Between-the-Evenings.pdf
Thanks Again! Yes, it doesn't make sense to me that the household Passover lambs would be eaten before the first day of Unleavened Bread which didn't begin until Nisan 15. Doesn't make sense why Yeshua would eat of a roasted Passover lamb with unleavened bread on Nisan 14 (Last Supper), prior to the first day (Nisan 15) of the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread.

As much as it goes against the grain of tradition ... reason tells us that the Last Supper (at the beginning of Nisan 14) did not include roasted lamb or unleavened bread. The preparation for the Lord's Meal (Last Supper) may have actually begun during the afternoon on Nisan 13. However, the actual meal (Last Supper), Yeshua's arrest, trial, beating, crucifixion and placing in the tomb all took place on Nisan 14.

Can we assume that the Lord's Meal (Last Supper) began after sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14. We've heard of the saying that goes something like this, "Working from sunrise to sunset makes one healthy, wealthy and wise." This work ethic seems even more typical of a Jewish proverb than an American proverb as first quoted by Benjamin Franklin in 1735.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Thanks Again! Yes, it doesn't make sense to me that the household Passover lambs would be eaten before the first day of Unleavened Bread which didn't begin until Nisan 15. Doesn't make sense why Yeshua would eat of a roasted Passover lamb with unleavened bread on Nisan 14 (Last Supper), prior to the first day (Nisan 15) of the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread.

As much as it goes against the grain of tradition ... reason tells us that the Last Supper (at the beginning of Nisan 14) did not include roasted lamb or unleavened bread. The preparation for the Lord's Meal (Last Supper) may have actually begun during the afternoon on Nisan 13. However, the actual meal (Last Supper), Yeshua's arrest, trial, beating, crucifixion and placing in the tomb all took place on Nisan 14.

Can we assume that the Lord's Meal (Last Supper) began after sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14. We've heard of the saying that goes something like this, "Working from sunrise to sunset makes one healthy, wealthy and wise." This work ethic seems even more typical of a Jewish proverb than an American proverb as first quoted by Benjamin Franklin in 1735.

There was no mention of lamb (no lamb was needed since Yeshua would be that lamb). The meal was after sunset (the same day the lambs would be killed). After that meal, he was arrested and tried over night and crucified from 9 AM to 3 PM when the lambs were slain. He was taken down from the cross and buried before sunset. Did anyone ever think that this actually WAS a Passover type meal and that Yeshua had it the night before because all those dealing with His dead body would be impure the next evening (just a thought)? When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God"
 
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Also, ( I have yet to read the links you supplied ) I have a hard time understanding the Shew Bread being leavened and yet residing in the Tabernacle beyond the sacrifice for sin. It was displayed in The Holy place, wasn't it.
Zola once made the comment "God has a picture of His Son on His table".
 
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There was no mention of lamb (no lamb was needed since Yeshua would be that lamb). The meal was after sunset (the same day the lambs would be killed). After that meal, he was arrested and tried over night and crucified from 9 AM to 3 PM when the lambs were slain. He was taken down from the cross and buried before sunset. Did anyone ever think that this actually WAS a Passover type meal and that Yeshua had it the night before because all those dealing with His dead body would be impure the next evening (just a thought)? When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God"

No, but wasn't there an unbroken shank bone present at Passover.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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No, but wasn't there an unbroken shank bone present at Passover.

No, not then, there would have been lamb since the Temple was still present.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Alex, the one thing that always baffled me was why did the current Messianic movement partner with Western theology and not the older Eastern Orthodox theology? Eastern Orthodoxy is the offspring of the fourteeners in the East, although even it has succumb ("judaizers") somewhat to Rome until 1054. The Eastern churches have always used unleavened bread. Even though I am Orthodox, I still try and adhere to the initial teachings of John, Polycarp and their Jewish successors of our church Fathers. Shalom
So true and something I wish was addressed more seriously when it comes to Orthodoxy (be it Eastern or Oriental). To see the rich Jewish heritage present there and the history with practices and the Jewish Church Fathers, I am always intrigued when a Western model is accepted but the earlier model is not really something people are aware of.
 
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Alex Tennent

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Also, ( I have yet to read the links you supplied ) I have a hard time understanding the Shew Bread being leavened and yet residing in the Tabernacle beyond the sacrifice for sin. It was displayed in The Holy place, wasn't it.
Zola once made the comment "God has a picture of His Son on His table".
Grafted in, I cover the Showbread and whether or not they were leavened (and the history of how they changed) in Course 7. Here is that link if you want to see that history. And remember that the Twelve Showbread represented the Twelve tribes, not the Messiah, so there was no typological need for them to be unleavened. Here is that chapter titled "The Showbread: Who They Represent, Were They Unleavened, and Why It Matters" and can be found here: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Course_7.pdf
 
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Alex Tennent

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Can we assume that the Lord's Meal (Last Supper) began after sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14.
I would guess so, as it says he came "in the evening" with the Twelve (Mark 14:17), the Greek word translated "evening" there means late, so it could also mean late in their day (which ended at sunset). Thats one aspect I haven't really researched out, only because for that point I didn't feel it really applied to anything (i.e. whether the LS was at 5:00 or 7:00). And even for the Passover feast itself, I know that some say it was only after sunset, but I never saw any scripture that said it had to be after sunset. From what I have seen, they could sacrifice the Passovers starting around 1:00 or so (but legally any time after noon), and after the sacrifice they were skinned and put in a earthen fire pit/oven, and when done they would take each one to the group it was appointed for. And in my thinking I see nothing scripturally that would be wrong for those who had the first lambs roasted with starting to eat it at 5:00 or so, an hour or so before sundown, but I am open to correction. The Passover sacrifice was the one sacrifice where an Israelite from any tribe (not just Levi) could approach the great altar and make the sacrifice.
 
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AbbaLove

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Did anyone ever think that this actually WAS a Passover type meal and that Yeshua had it the night before because all those dealing with His dead body would be impure the next evening (just a thought)? When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God"
Well, apparently the Complete Jewish Bible translators believe it WAS a Passover type meal that Yeshua had on the 1st day of matzah, which was also the day of Passover (Nisan 14) according to Matthew and Luke. Luke 22:1-7 seems pretty straight forward that the Passover and the 1st day of Unleavened Bread (matzah) both occurred on Nisan 14.

Matthew 26:17-20 (CJB)
17 On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to prepare Your Seder?”
This seems to suggest that the 1st day for matzah was on the Day of Preparation (Nisan 13).
18 “Go into the city, to so-and-so,” He replied, “and tell him that the Rabbi says, ‘My time is near, my talmidim and I are celebrating Pesach at your house.’”
19 The talmidim did as Yeshua directed and prepared the Seder. (while it was still the afternoon of Nisan 13, the Day of Preparation)
20 When evening came, Yeshua reclined with the twelve talmidim; (at the beginning of Nisan 14, by then one gets the impression that the lamb had already been slain "between the twilight's" at the very beginning of Nisan 14). The household lambs were already being roasted under the first starlight of Nisan 14. The Passover lambs could have been ready for eating by 8pm (when evening came).

Apparently, the 1st day of matzah began on Passover during the time of Yeshua. Yeshua didn't recline with the 12 until evening came which we assume was just a couple hours after sunset into Nisan 14. According to Luke 22:7 the Passover Lamb was slain between the twilights. "Between the twilights" has been interpreted to mean from the time of the sunset to an hour later when the first stars are visible. So the question would seem to be whether the translators of the CJB have assumed too much liberty believing the Last Supper was in fact a Pesach Meal of matzah and roasted lamb that was ready to eat as soon as 8pm or 2 hours after sunset at the beginning of Nisan 14.

Luke 22:1-2,7-11,14-15 (CJB)
1 But the festival of Matzah, known as Pesach, was approaching;
2 and the head cohanim and the Torah-teachers began trying to find some way to get rid of Yeshua, because they were afraid of the people.
7 Then came the day of matzah, on which the Passover lamb had to be killed. (Nisan 14)
8 Yeshua sent Kefa and Yochanan, instructing them, “Go and prepare our Seder, so we can eat.”
9 They asked Him, “Where do you want us to prepare it?”
10 He told them, “As you’re going into the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him into the house he enters,
11 and say to its owner, ‘The Rabbi says to you, “Where is the guest room, where I am to eat the Pesach meal with my talmidim?” ’
14 When the time came, Yeshua and the emissaries reclined at the table,
15 and He said to them, “I have really wanted so much to celebrate this Seder with you before I die!
16 For I tell you, it is certain that I will not celebrate it again until it is given its full meaning in the Kingdom of God."

John 13:1-2 (CJB)
1 It was just before the festival of Pesach, and Yeshua knew that the time had come for Him to pass from this world to the Father. Having loved His own people in the world, He loved them to the end.
2 They were at supper, and the Adversary had already put the desire to betray Him into the heart of Y’hudah Ben-Shim‘on from K’riot.

These verses by John add to the controversy; while the account by Matthew and Luke is more descriptive/detailed. John 13:1 doesn't say that their "supper" began before the festival of Pesach, but rather that Yeshua knew before Pesach that His time had come for Him to pass from this world.
 
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Alex Tennent

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Well, apparently the Complete Jewish Bible translators believe it WAS a Passover type meal that Yeshua had on the 1st day of matzah, which was also the day of Passover (Nisan 14) according to Matthew and Luke. Luke 22:1-7 seems pretty straight forward that the Passover and the 1st day of Unleavened Bread (matzah) both occurred on Nisan 14.
AbbaLove, what they are saying is the same thing that has been handed down since the RCC took over and pushed out the Messianic Jews (called Fourteenthers). I would like to post a couple chapters for you or anyone else to consider in this regard. Part of why I am putting this all in one place is so that if I am asked any more questions I can just point to this post! I would recommend these four chapters to at least see what I am saying, so here goes:
1. Most people who know Jewish history would agree that the Messiah and the Jewish apostles would never eat leavened bread at Passover (at that time still being under that requirement). Yet Course 1 of my book proves that they were eating regular daily leavened bread at this meal, and it can be read here: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Course_1.pdf
2. That being true, it now makes sense that the earliest Jewish followers of the Messiah believed the Messiah was crucified and died on the 14th day, at the exact time the lambs would be offered. And this is why God commanded that certain day, by His own foreknowledge. These Jewish believers were mocked by Rome and called "Quartodecimans" (a Latin word meaning fourteenth-ers), because Rome thought Jesus ate the Passover at the last supper and was crucified on the 15th day, "Good Friday" (the day after the lambs were sacrificed). So they cut off the Jews and mocked them as 14th ers. But since Course one above proved they were eating leavened bread, and telling everyone that the Messiah held one leavened bread (using the Greek word arton 10 times for what they were eating, which is used for daily leavened bread, and not once using the Greek word for unleavened, i.e. azumos). Since it was perfectly legal to eat leavened bread at the end of the 13th day, and even hours into the 14th day, it shows that the "Fourteenthers were correct and Roman theologians were wrong. Here is that Chapter, on the Jewish disconnect and the Fourteenthers: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_SettingTable_1.pdf
3. I agree AbbaLove that the scriptures in Matthew 28, Mark 12, and Luke 22 really make it seem obvious that the LS was the Passover meal. But it must be remembered that after Rome took over doctrine and killed those Jews who had other beliefs this tradition became solid and fixed and totally believed for hundreds of years, until the English translations came along. Those translators, most of them one step out of the Roman Catholic Church, still believed that tradition as fact, and translated those verses from Greek into English as they thought the truth was. The following chapter goes into how those English translations should have been translated, using the acceptable Greek Grammar rules. Here is that Chapter:
http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Greek-Keys.pdf
4. And if anyone still questions whether the last supper was the Passover or not, I would ask that they consider the 50 proofs I lay out as to why the last supper could not possibly be the Passover, but Christ our Passover was crucified on the predetermined day, by God's foreknowledge. Those 50 proofs can be found here: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_50-Reasons.pdf
To conclude, the scripture says to buy the truth and sell it not (ie. never let go of it). I believe there are important reasons God is revealing these truths now, and reconnecting back to the Jewish idioms in which they were meant, and of course back to the Jewish people and things they can more relate to (as opposed to church rituals). So if what I am saying is true, then God has big reasons for revealing these things now. All the best AbbaLove!
 
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