What is the Atonement?

[bling]

If the human will is free from active external influencing & cannot be made to take a particular decision, why did the Holy Spirit record saying, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted (John12:40)". Where is limited autonomous freewill?

I have repeatedly said there is only “limited autonomous free will” and really only the free will we need at a particular time, which will enable us to fulfill our earthly objective.

The same “message” which opens one person’s heart can harden another person’s heart depending on how it is received.

John 12:40 is a repeat of the poetic Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

Isaiah will go on to preach to these people being described to repent, so is that a total waste of his time?

People can change.

 

[Butch5]

Blatant denial of Bible passages which talk of God's wrath in Romans 4:15, John 3:36 & Genesis 3:16 etc is not the issue?



What are the problems? C'mon list them...

There's no denial. You're just trying to change the subject.

Sure, one is that nothing in the Scriptures says that God requires a payment for sin. Another is that forgiveness and payment for the same "debt" are mutually exclusive.

 

[Butch5]

John 3:36: "the wrath of God abideth on him". Have you read the Bible?

Doesn't Romans 4:15 talk about God's wrath ("the law worketh wrath")?

Genesus 3:16: "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow". Was God angry with them or inviting them to a party?

John 3:36 and Romans 4:15 aren't talking about Adam and Eve. The fact that you asked if God was angry at them in Gen 3:16 shows that the passage doesn't say He was. You're drawing an assumption.

 

[Si_monfaith]

I have repeatedly said there is only “limited autonomous free will” and really only the free will we need at a particular time, which will enable us to fulfill our earthly objective.

The same “message” which opens one person’s heart can harden another person’s heart depending on how it is received.

John 12:40 is a repeat of the poetic Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

Isaiah will go on to preach to these people being described to repent, so is that a total waste of his time?

People can change.

there is only “limited autonomous free will”

If the human heart can be hardened to not believe as in the John 12 passage, how do say human will is free? Does the term "free" make any sense?

 

[Si_monfaith]

There's no denial. You're just trying to change the subject.

Sure, one is that nothing in the Scriptures says that God requires a payment for sin. Another is that forgiveness and payment for the same "debt" are mutually exclusive.

There's no denial

So christus victor theory (cvt) agrees God was angry on mankind? If yes, what does cvt propose regarding the solution to God's wrath on mankind?

that nothing in the Scriptures says that God requires a payment for sin

If God doesn't require a payment for sin, why does He require a ransom to defeat sin/death/satan?

Why does cvt jump to propose the defeat sin/death/satan without proposing how God's wrath was solved?

Another is that forgiveness and payment for the same "debt" are mutually exclusive.

What do you mean by that?

 

[Si_monfaith]

John 3:36 and Romans 4:15 aren't talking about Adam and Eve. The fact that you asked if God was angry at them in Gen 3:16 shows that the passage doesn't say He was. You're drawing an assumption.

John 3:36 and Romans 4:15 aren't talking about Adam and Eve

Oh, so wrath came upon mankind after Adam Eve? How did that wrath come? Explain.

The fact that you asked if God was angry at them in Gen 3:16 shows that the passage doesn't say He was. You're drawing an assumption.

Really? So God wasn't angry but very very happy with them when He said "I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY THY SORROW?"

Was God happy with them when they rejected His word & instrumentally chose the forbidden knowledge of good and evil?

Was God happy when they rejected His word & brought death upon themselves?

So you'll be very happy if your children die rejecting your word?