What is judging?

[CBM]

Well said, for mercy triumphs over judgement and we should always have mercy and compassion towards others., even as Christ had mercy upon us.

 

[Jim Langston]

My position is that a gay, lesbian or what not should absolutely be allowed to attend a church though not be allowed membership unless or until they repent. I agree with pretty much everything you said up until your last paragraph. If the church was only made available (in terms of mere attendance) to the already converted, it would be neglecting a key Biblical mandate which is to evangelize the lost. Jesus said: "It is not the healthy that are in need of a physician but the sick". Once again, though, I am talking about attendance not an actual communing member.

I think we are in agreement, there is just a confusion of terms.

 

[Honoluluwindow]

My position is that a gay, lesbian or what not should absolutely be allowed to attend a church though not be allowed membership unless or until they repent. I agree with pretty much everything you said up until your last paragraph. If the church was only made available (in terms of mere attendance) to the already converted, it would be neglecting a key Biblical mandate which is to evangelize the lost. Jesus said: "It is not the healthy that are in need of a physician but the sick". Once again, though, I am talking about attendance not an actual communing member.

Attending church is not what's needed. Salvation is. Once a gay is saved he must abstain from that type of sexual perversion in order to attend church. He may not rid himself of being tempted but the temptation is not a sin and he can still attend church even if he struggles.

 

[CBM]

Here is something of interest:

It is very easy to be confused when you hear that Christians are to "judge not" but also to discern and judge what is truth. Jesus tells us to look at our own sin before judging someone else. The Bible tells us we are to confront others sin with truth and love in respect. Read these Bible verses for more specific truths when it comes to the Christian life and what it means to not judge.

37 Bible Verses About Judging Others - Inspiring Scriptures

 

[jrg40]

We are told in the bible to judge not, lest we be judged, for that with which we judge we should also be judged.

We are also told, however, that it is not our duty to judge outside the church but within it.

So, just what is judging?

Today it seems that everytime someone says something bad about someone there is a cry of "why are you judging?"

It seems to me that people do not understand what judging is in the first place.

If I say "you are not supposed to commit homosexual acts", is that judging? No. If I say "you are not suppsed to commit homosexual acts, and because you do you are not welcome as a member of our church" is that judging? Yes, although rightously. What is the difference between the two? The penalty we impose. Without penalty there is no judgement.

There was a discussion going on where I think the OP believes I reported them for cussing, which I did not (if I had realized the OP believed this earlier my responses would of been much different). In the end the the OP stated that they didn't want any advice, they had come to vent. I said fine, I was done and "I wish the pity party would end".

This is not the thread as to what I should, or should not, of said, that is for another thread please. Please try to stay on topic about judging, not my ability to communicate well.

I agree that was not the most sensitive thing to say although the reason I had said it was to try to get the OP to think about what a pity party was. Also, I had mistakenly thought that the "veteran" under their name meant they were a veteran of the website so I had, mistakenly, thought they had been around for a while. In hindsight I would not of said this or would of tried to express my thoughts in a different way. Experience is a great teacher. The OP expressed their feelings on this, I had actually made them think about it which was my intention, but before I could respond with what I had meant someone ( @ToBeJudged ) accuses me of judging.

The thread quickly desolved into, "I'm not judging...", "yes you were", etc... with the OP dropping out without me able to further the conversation as was my intention. Yes, it was my intention to make the OP think and respond.

Now, the issue is, how is stating "I wish this pity party would end" judging by any means? It could be considered heartless by some, I agree. It could be considered rude, I agree. But, how was it judging?

Did I change my opinion of the OP in any way? Other than feel more compassion for them, no. Did I exclude the OP from anything? No.

Somehow people have gotten it in their minds that expressing one's thoughts is judging. Somehow people have gotten it into their minds that telling someone where we think they are wrong is judging. Somehow people have gotten it into their minds that saying something someone does not want to hear is judging. Don't you dare reprove someone, that is judging. Don't you dare tell someone they are sinning, that is judging.

Our current English word for judging, I think, is the problem. One of the definitions of our English word is "form an opinion or conclusion about" but that is not what the bible is talking about. We are told throughout the bible that this is a good thing (judge within yourself).

What the bible actually means by judgement is the other type of definition, "to pass sentence on; condemn" and as saying "I wish this pity party would end" is neither passing sentance on or condemning.

The reason I know this is the definition intended because people in the bible were constantly expressing their opinion on things. We are told in the bible to rebuke each other as Christians, if this was judging we would not of been told to do this. We are told to correct each other, if this was judging we would not of been told to do this.

I see numerous examples in the bible where rightous men (Apostles, prophets, etc...) say things that so many people would jump up as yell "YOU ARE JUDGING". In fact, in this other thread I used a few times the words of Jesus Himself, and was further accused of judging.

So, tell me, how are we to rebuke others if rebuking is judging?

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

According to these people claiming "Judgement!" that would be judging. Since we are told to do this it obviously (to me) isn't.

"Judge not lest ye be judged" is, indeed, one of the most misunderstood and misapplied passages of Scripture if not the most. People constru that to mean that any form of correction or identification of a sinful act is prohibited Scripturally. Such is not at all the case. Being one who has some (though admittedly very limited) knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew language which Scripture is translated, the word translated for "judgement" in the contexts for which it is prohibited is "to condemn". As such, we are not to judge others in a condemning way. That type of judgement is reserved for God alone. Corrective and discerning judgement, however, are not prohibited. In some cases, in fact, it is commanded i.e. Galatians 6. Another thing I think may be noteworthy is that many places in the Bible that speak of judgement involve the actual inflicting of punishment. For instance, when God judged Sodom and Gomarah he rained down fire and brimstone. When God judged the Nation of Israel he brought about a literal punishment.

 

[jrg40]

Attending church is not what's needed. Salvation is. Once a gay is saved he must abstain from that type of sexual perversion in order to attend church. He may not rid himself of being tempted but the temptation is not a sin and he can still attend church even if he struggles.

I would like to commit briefly on your statement: "Attending church is not what is needed. Salvation is".
I agree 100% with that statement. The Church, however, is a key mechanism that God uses to convict one of sin and reveal their need to repent and receive salvation. Another key way is through missionaries. It would be like saying the unsaved do not need missionaries they need salvation. That is true. But a missionary could very well be the vessel God uses to drawn an unsaved person to Himself. All that is to say, the doors of a church should be open to believers and unbelievers alike though membership and various benefits of a church should be limited to believers.

 

[TurtleAnne]

The word "judging" (and its various tenses) is a word that I am willing to be flexible with, as far as using it in the way that the people with whom I am speaking seem to use it. There are some words where I do not budge on how use or interpret them, but this isn't one of those words. Usually when I'm using the word, myself, I mean it as far as persecution, not expressing opinions, when I'm reminding myself not to judge others, so i.e. don't be an angry dbag.

But generally the way I hear/see people using it, for the most part, is as though what they mean is "shaming" more specifically. Which interestingly enough tends to carry the implication that many people are very sensitive about what others think of their behaviors/choices/etc. So I sometimes perceive it as a person sort of exposing their softer underbelly, emotionally, in that they are not entirely confident with their lifestyle choices or some of their decisions. They declare their opinions about certain behaviors, and if I disagree, that is where I see some variation of "don't judge" come into play from others. Like it upsets them if I think one of their behaviors is wrong, or that they are supporting a morally wrong behavior. What I really hear/see is, "Your lack of approval makes me feel upset," which to me isn't actually a terrible thing. I experience the same thing now and then, feeling uncomfortable if peers disapprove with my choices (even when I feel that my choices are right, but it's even worse when I know I was wrong). It is an uncomfortable feeling, that is pretty normal, I think. So to me it's just a sort of signal that the person is feeling vulnerable, and I'm usually willing to respond to that, take it down another notch and go out of my way to explain that I know I'm not exactly an epitome of righteousness, either, as my understatement of the year lol. It's like a signal of vulnerability and a need for some empathy.

Then there is the a whole 'nother ballpark of the fascist radical types who hate free speech and free thinking and will ironically try to shut you down from expressing your opinion if they disagree with it, but will use self-righteous, puffed up versions of "don't judge" like accuse you of hate speech or being X-phobic and so on. Narcissistic nutters.

But again, I think most of the people who respond defensively with version of "don't judge" are doing just that, responding defensively, because they feel vulnerable. So it's like a signal, in my mind, to fess-up something myself, to show that I am not trying to puff myself up above them but just want to discuss the behavior itself.

 

[Sine Nomine]

I don't think Judge in this case is simple condemnation or discernment of right vs wrong. The English word (16th century) seems to mean the act of deciding a contest--a little different from today. The Greek is in the future tense.

I'd like to suggest that perhaps judge in this case means deciding an outcome. It would be very presumptuous of Christians to make pronouncements such as "I'm saved and you're not". We don't have that kind of perspective. In the passage Christ may be cautioning us to not act in God's stead by applying our standard, lest God shows us to be hypocrites worthy of receiving the same pronouncement. This would fit nicely with "rightly dividing the word" and with "count others better than yourselves".

One might rightly say, "the Bible teaches that this behavior is sinful", but this is quite different from "you don't know Christ", "you can't be a Christian, you're a ______" and similar statements.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Hi Jim. Good topic.

We are told in the bible to judge not, lest we be judged, for that with which we judge we should also be judged.

I have a somewhat different understanding of the Matthew 7 verses regarding "judge not". The KJV translates it as, "Judge not, that ye be not judged". I think the comma there makes a big difference, and that it doesn't make sense for it to be there.

The spirit of the statement appears to be communicating, "Do not think you will not be judged." This is especially true as Jesus follows it up with, "For with what measure you judge, you will be judged". It's a warning not to think we're above judgement and to use fair judgment. He then goes into the example of the beam and speck and concludes that we should take the beam out of our own eye so that we will see clearly to take the speck out of our Brothers eye. This is a push for fair judgment. Jesus wants us to take the specks out of each others eyes, but he wants us to see clearly when we do it and we can only do that by first judging ourselves.

Regarding your comment, "When will the pity party end" and whether it's a judgement or not, of course it is. You've judged that the person is indulging in self pity. You're not condemning them to hell or whatever, but it's still a judgment. The real question is whether or not your judgment was fair, accurate, and necessary at the time, and whether you are prepared to be judged in the same way. Since I wasn't part of all that I can't say, but the basic standard is there; if you judge, do it fairly.

I think it would be quite liberating for all of us to just acknowledge that we judge all the time. Meaningful life is impossible without judgment. There are some aspects of life that we cannot judge fairly, like eternal destination. We have no idea what will happen to people after they die, so it's not our place to say, "you are lost" or "you are saved".

We can make educated assessments based on what we understand to be right and wrong, and there may be times when God will want us to communicate to someone that they are very close to hell, but ultimately, the final decision on what happens to that person belongs to God. That is a judgment beyond our responsibility to make.

But that's in the after-life. While we are here on this earth we can make reasonable judgments based on behavior, motivation, and character. Learning how to exercise wise, fair, and accurate judgment is a part of growing into a mature spiritually sensitive person.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

when I'm reminding myself not to judge others, so i.e. don't be an angry dbag.

lol

 

[Endtime Survivors]

But generally the way I hear/see people using it, for the most part, is as though what they mean is "shaming" more specifically. Which interestingly enough tends to carry the implication that many people are very sensitive about what others think of their behaviors/choices/etc. So I sometimes perceive it as a person sort of exposing their softer underbelly, emotionally, in that they are not entirely confident with their lifestyle choices or some of their decisions. They declare their opinions about certain behaviors, and if I disagree, that is where I see some variation of "don't judge" come into play from others. Like it upsets them if I think one of their behaviors is wrong, or that they are supporting a morally wrong behavior. What I really hear/see is, "Your lack of approval makes me feel upset," which to me isn't actually a terrible thing. I experience the same thing now and then, feeling uncomfortable if peers disapprove with my choices (even when I feel that my choices are right, but it's even worse when I know I was wrong). It is an uncomfortable feeling, that is pretty normal, I think. So to me it's just a sort of signal that the person is feeling vulnerable, and I'm usually willing to respond to that, take it down another notch and go out of my way to explain that I know I'm not exactly an epitome of righteousness, either, as my understatement of the year lol. It's like a signal of vulnerability and a need for some empathy.

Then there is the a whole 'nother ballpark of the fascist radical types who hate free speech and free thinking and will ironically try to shut you down from expressing your opinion if they disagree with it, but will use self-righteous, puffed up versions of "don't judge" like accuse you of hate speech or being X-phobic and so on. Narcissistic nutters.

But again, I think most of the people who respond defensively with version of "don't judge" are doing just that, responding defensively, because they feel vulnerable. So it's like a signal, in my mind, to fess-up something myself, to show that I am not trying to puff myself up above them but just want to discuss the behavior itself.

I really enjoyed reading this post. There are some interesting observations here, especially those regarding insecurities and defensive reactions. I have also noticed that the "do not judge" teaching is often used as a shield to basically say, "my behavior is beyond question".

If our arguments are vulnerable, or have holes, or tangles or whatever, then the best thing for us is for people to judge, because that's how we'll refine and sharpen the argument. I believe this has happened to me many times over the years; I'll finish a debate with no one changing their mind and seemingly nothing accomplished, except that I come away feeling like I have a better understanding of my own position than I did before. Maybe we have missed something and so long as we put our fingers in our ears and chant, "you can't judge me" we'll never see it.

Also, the effort that it takes to accurately respond to a judgement could end up helping the other person to see our position more clearly. I believe this is what Paul meant by having an answer ready, but usually I try to ignore what seem to me immature or reactionary judgments, like when someone says, "Obviously you don't believe the Bible". Almost always, responding to that kind of judgment will only veer off into foolishness. And that's a judgment I make, too (without any need to tell the other person I'm doing so), but based on personal experience, I think it's an accurate judgment.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The question usually comes around when Christians judge other people without it being necessary; and this isn't good judgment at all.

Hi JH. I think you've touched on a super important aspect of Judgment. Just because we have the right answer doesn't mean we have the right spirit.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Well, I can see you've got it all worked out, and far be it from me to stand in anyone's way of judging others. My only advice would be, careful with that loaded gun, you may end up shooting yourself.

lol, judgment! Judgment! XD

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Calling someone a sinner is not judgemental since we are all sinners, are we not?

If it's true that we're all sinners anyway, then what's the point of calling someone a sinner? Your argument annihilates itself.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Judgment is like a loaded .45 and we are like children. I'm not sure it's good to be twirling that thing on our finger.

Life is the practice range. We're meant to become sharpshooters!

 

[patdee]

We are told in the bible to judge not, lest we be judged, for that with which we judge we should also be judged.

We are also told, however, that it is not our duty to judge outside the church but within it.

So, just what is judging?

Today it seems that everytime someone says something bad about someone there is a cry of "why are you judging?"

It seems to me that people do not understand what judging is in the first place.

If I say "you are not supposed to commit homosexual acts", is that judging? No. If I say "you are not suppsed to commit homosexual acts, and because you do you are not welcome as a member of our church" is that judging? Yes, although rightously. What is the difference between the two? The penalty we impose. Without penalty there is no judgement.

There was a discussion going on where I think the OP believes I reported them for cussing, which I did not (if I had realized the OP believed this earlier my responses would of been much different). In the end the the OP stated that they didn't want any advice, they had come to vent. I said fine, I was done and "I wish the pity party would end".

This is not the thread as to what I should, or should not, of said, that is for another thread please. Please try to stay on topic about judging, not my ability to communicate well.

I agree that was not the most sensitive thing to say although the reason I had said it was to try to get the OP to think about what a pity party was. Also, I had mistakenly thought that the "veteran" under their name meant they were a veteran of the website so I had, mistakenly, thought they had been around for a while. In hindsight I would not of said this or would of tried to express my thoughts in a different way. Experience is a great teacher. The OP expressed their feelings on this, I had actually made them think about it which was my intention, but before I could respond with what I had meant someone ( @ToBeJudged ) accuses me of judging.

The thread quickly desolved into, "I'm not judging...", "yes you were", etc... with the OP dropping out without me able to further the conversation as was my intention. Yes, it was my intention to make the OP think and respond.

Now, the issue is, how is stating "I wish this pity party would end" judging by any means? It could be considered heartless by some, I agree. It could be considered rude, I agree. But, how was it judging?

Did I change my opinion of the OP in any way? Other than feel more compassion for them, no. Did I exclude the OP from anything? No.

Somehow people have gotten it in their minds that expressing one's thoughts is judging. Somehow people have gotten it into their minds that telling someone where we think they are wrong is judging. Somehow people have gotten it into their minds that saying something someone does not want to hear is judging. Don't you dare reprove someone, that is judging. Don't you dare tell someone they are sinning, that is judging.

Our current English word for judging, I think, is the problem. One of the definitions of our English word is "form an opinion or conclusion about" but that is not what the bible is talking about. We are told throughout the bible that this is a good thing (judge within yourself).

What the bible actually means by judgement is the other type of definition, "to pass sentence on; condemn" and as saying "I wish this pity party would end" is neither passing sentence on or condemning.

The reason I know this is the definition intended because people in the bible were constantly expressing their opinion on things. We are told in the bible to rebuke each other as Christians, if this was judging we would not of been told to do this. We are told to correct each other, if this was judging we would not of been told to do this.

I see numerous examples in the bible where rightous men (Apostles, prophets, etc...) say things that so many people would jump up as yell "YOU ARE JUDGING". In fact, in this other thread I used a few times the words of Jesus Himself, and was further accused of judging.

So, tell me, how are we to rebuke others if rebuking is judging?

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

According to these people claiming "Judgement!" that would be judging. Since we are told to do this it obviously (to me) isn't.

------------------------------------------------------

Judging:

1. He's a nerd.
2. She thinks she is so hot.
3. You idiot.
4. Well, her shoes do not match her dress.
5. You think you're so smart.
6. Etc, etc, etc.

NOT Judging:

1. A homosexual is an abomination and worthy of death.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
2. Any one who does NOT believe in Jesus, WILL perish in hell and be denied eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3. Adolph Hitler was a premeditated cold blooded murderer. He should have been put to death.
Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Numbers 35:30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.
4. Any one who commits, aids or condones abortion is a premeditated cold blooded murderer.
5. Etc, etc, and etc!

So what's the difference? Simply this: In the first examples above, it is subjective, thus Jesus considers it "Judging". However in the latter examples, one is NOT judging. They are simply stating a fact. It goes like this: IF I call a person a thief based on my opinion, that is judging. However, IF that person is found guilty of robbing in a duly constituted court of law; in front of a jury of his peers; then it is perfectly OK in the laws of man AND in Jesus' eyes. Again, it is simply stating a fact.

In any case, may Jesus richly bless you and yours always.

So be careful when we make statements that have not been proven; or it is Jesus who said it. For He is NEVER wrong. There is NO error or fallibility in Him. Praise His holy name. Thus we can use what Jesus said to judge another inside or outside HIS church*. But NEVER do it based on OUR opinion and/or OUR interpretation.


* His church is not defined by a building or ANY format that is common in Christian churches. Keep this in mind. VERY important. HIS church is ANY where 2 or more are gathered IN His name. Note the word "IN". IF we are not gathered IN His name, it is NOT a church, whether people believe it or not. MOST Christian churches are NOT His church. Oh indeed yes. Because they are NOT gathered IN His name; rather the church's name and doctrine.

And my saying "Most churches" is NOT judging. It is stating a fact. Check it out. ANY church that condones ANY sin is NOT "His church". And that is a fact. Sadly, most churches teach and espouse that thousands of sins are OK in their rationale. Jesus would tell them, "Ye vipers and hypocrites. The truth is NOT in you!. Get thee behind me satan!" OH indeed yes.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock** I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Notice: He said "HIS" church. He never said "OUR "church or a man made church. This is very important.

** Also, Peter is NOT the "rock". That is a misinterpretation of scripture. The rock is WHO Jesus was and is. Read the verses before this and you will see that Jesus was going to build "HIS" church based on who HE was; NOT who Peter was. The RCC is in gross error to say that "Peter was the rock of Jesus' church". That is a satan-led lie. Oh indeed yes. ALL will know this to be fact absolute on judgment day.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

And my saying "Most churches" is NOT judging. It is stating a fact.

I think you make some interesting points, but the credibility of those points becomes undermined when you say that "most" is factual. It's not.

 

[Bible2+]

Jim Langston said in post 1:

We are told in the bible to judge not, lest we be judged, for that with which we judge we should also be judged.

Matthew 7:1 ¶Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

This refers to judging people for their sinful actions in a harsh, self-righteous, hypocritical way, like saying: "Oh, how evil! I would never do anything like that", instead of simply judging their wrong actions as being sins, recognizing that one has one's own sins to worry about (Romans 3:9-12). Matthew 7:2 means that if we do not humbly forgive other people for their sins, God will not forgive us for our own sins (Matthew 6:15). The sin of judging others in the wrong way can be forgiven (like other sins), if it is repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9).

Jim Langston said in post 1:

We are also told, however, that it is not our duty to judge outside the church but within it.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Leaders in the church should never exercise their authority in an imperious manner (1 Peter 5:3, Matthew 20:25-27). But neither should they shrink from their responsibility to expel from their congregation any believer who is continuing in unrepentant sin (1 Corinthians 5:11-13). This expulsion can be done in a loving manner (2 Thessalonians 3:15), with the motive of hoping that it will wake up the expelled person to the seriousness of his spiritual situation, and so cause him to want to repent, instead of continuing in his sin until Jesus returns and cuts him to pieces as a hypocrite (Matthew 24:48-51).

Jim Langston said in post 1:

Now, the issue is, how is stating "I wish this pity party would end" judging by any means? It could be considered heartless by some, I agree. It could be considered rude, I agree. But, how was it judging?

It was judging in the wrong way of Matthew 7:1 if it was said in a spirit of superiority, as if to say: "Oh, you are so pathetic. I do not engage in self-pity. So I am better than you. You annoy me." That is, if it was said in self-righteousness and impatience rather than love (1 Corinthians 13:4, Galatians 5:22).

Jim Langston said in post 1:

We are told to correct each other, if this was judging we would not of been told to do this.

It is the way that it is done that matters.

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ . . .

Jim Langston said in post 1:

According to these people claiming "Judgement!" that would be judging.

It is funny sometimes how people react when they are told the truth, even in love.

Once I heard someone say: "I cannot stand people who call themselves Christians, yet they judge others".

But we have to be careful not to fall into the trap of wrongly judging others for wrongly judging others (cf. Romans 2:3, Matthew 7:1-5).

Jim Langston said in post 1 [in the signature]:

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This is a wonderful verse. And it is the same idea as when Jesus said:

Matthew 7:12 ¶Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

So when we are thinking about pointing out a fault in someone, such as their wallowing in self-pity, we need to think: "Okay, if I was wallowing in self-pity myself, how would I want someone else to point that out to me?"

For the root of wrong judging is separating oneself from the other in a self-righteous way. Compare:

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

-

One area where is it very easy for most Christians to get self-righteous is when they point out (even correctly) that homosexual acts are sinful (Romans 1:26-27). For we too easily forget that homosexual acts (Genesis 19:4-5) were not the only sin of Sodom. For "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy" (Ezekiel 16:49). How many of us who love to rail against homosexuals are nonetheless "just like Sodom" with regard to our pride, our fullness of bread, our abundance of idleness, and our refusal to strengthen the hand of the poor and needy? How many of us who in our self-righteousness love to place ourselves above homosexuals, even if we are completely free from all sin, will still be judged for our self-righteousness (Luke 18:9-14)?

But, at the same time, the truth must never be discounted that homosexual acts, if they are not repented of, will, like any other unrepented sin, keep someone from ultimate salvation (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). But people are not set free from homosexual desires, or any other sinful desires, through legal restrictions placed upon them. For legal restrictions have no power at all against sinful desires, but can even help to revive and inflame them (Romans 7:8-9). Only Jesus has the power to set people free from the sin of homosexual acts, just as any other sin (John 8:34-36).

The list of sins which will ultimately keep even Christians out of the kingdom of God (if they do not repent from them) is quite long (Galatians 5:19-21), and some of these sins are quite common within the church today. So why is there such a focus by some Christians upon homosexuality alone? Why does not the church also focus on, for example, its own very-widespread practice of divorce and second-marriage adultery (Mark 10:11-12)?

 

[Victor E.]

We are told in the bible to judge not, lest we be judged, for that with which we judge we should also be judged.

We are also told, however, that it is not our duty to judge outside the church but within it.

So, just what is judging?

Today it seems that everytime someone says something bad about someone there is a cry of "why are you judging?"

It seems to me that people do not understand what judging is in the first place.

If I say "you are not supposed to commit homosexual acts", is that judging? No. If I say "you are not suppsed to commit homosexual acts, and because you do you are not welcome as a member of our church" is that judging? Yes, although rightously. What is the difference between the two? The penalty we impose. Without penalty there is no judgement.

There was a discussion going on where I think the OP believes I reported them for cussing, which I did not (if I had realized the OP believed this earlier my responses would of been much different). In the end the the OP stated that they didn't want any advice, they had come to vent. I said fine, I was done and "I wish the pity party would end".

This is not the thread as to what I should, or should not, of said, that is for another thread please. Please try to stay on topic about judging, not my ability to communicate well.

I agree that was not the most sensitive thing to say although the reason I had said it was to try to get the OP to think about what a pity party was. Also, I had mistakenly thought that the "veteran" under their name meant they were a veteran of the website so I had, mistakenly, thought they had been around for a while. In hindsight I would not of said this or would of tried to express my thoughts in a different way. Experience is a great teacher. The OP expressed their feelings on this, I had actually made them think about it which was my intention, but before I could respond with what I had meant someone ( @ToBeJudged ) accuses me of judging.

The thread quickly desolved into, "I'm not judging...", "yes you were", etc... with the OP dropping out without me able to further the conversation as was my intention. Yes, it was my intention to make the OP think and respond.

Now, the issue is, how is stating "I wish this pity party would end" judging by any means? It could be considered heartless by some, I agree. It could be considered rude, I agree. But, how was it judging?

Did I change my opinion of the OP in any way? Other than feel more compassion for them, no. Did I exclude the OP from anything? No.

Somehow people have gotten it in their minds that expressing one's thoughts is judging. Somehow people have gotten it into their minds that telling someone where we think they are wrong is judging. Somehow people have gotten it into their minds that saying something someone does not want to hear is judging. Don't you dare reprove someone, that is judging. Don't you dare tell someone they are sinning, that is judging.

Our current English word for judging, I think, is the problem. One of the definitions of our English word is "form an opinion or conclusion about" but that is not what the bible is talking about. We are told throughout the bible that this is a good thing (judge within yourself).

What the bible actually means by judgement is the other type of definition, "to pass sentence on; condemn" and as saying "I wish this pity party would end" is neither passing sentance on or condemning.

The reason I know this is the definition intended because people in the bible were constantly expressing their opinion on things. We are told in the bible to rebuke each other as Christians, if this was judging we would not of been told to do this. We are told to correct each other, if this was judging we would not of been told to do this.

I see numerous examples in the bible where rightous men (Apostles, prophets, etc...) say things that so many people would jump up as yell "YOU ARE JUDGING". In fact, in this other thread I used a few times the words of Jesus Himself, and was further accused of judging.

So, tell me, how are we to rebuke others if rebuking is judging?

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

According to these people claiming "Judgement!" that would be judging. Since we are told to do this it obviously (to me) isn't.

It is profitable not to get judging others (with eternal implications) misconstrued with Accountability in the Church of Christ (reproof, correction, exhortation, rebuke).

That being said, there are some that speak the Truth in love, while others love to speak the Truth. It's a depth of maturity and discerning God's will at the time.

 

[66/40]

Many people know Matt 7:1-2:
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2-For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

However it's the most misinterpreted passage in the Bible. They know that verse but they don't know John 7:24 (NIV): "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly."

When people says "do not judge," this is called the law of non-contradiction. They are "judging" when they say that. If one says there is no standard of "morality," they've already made a standard of morality. It's funny because the person doesn't even realize that fact. For an atheist to say there is no "absolute truth," they just made an "absolute truth" claim and they've just contradicted their entire broken theory.

We are called to judge. In fact, Jesus makes that abundantly clear. So if we don't judge we are deficient. What Jesus makes plane is that we should never judge self righteously, hastily (without evidence) or hypocritically.

Jesus didn’t teach against judging, nor did He relieve His followers of the need for discerning right and wrong, but He condemned unjust hypocritical judging if others. (Matt 6:43-45).

He taught against a specific kind of judging. The type of judging he spoke against was a blind, ignorant, hypocritical, self-righteous judging that overlooks one’s own faults, failures and sins and only sees faults, failures and sins in other people.

Leviticus 19:15 (NIV)
Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

Leviticus 19:17 (NIV-1984)
Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share his guilt.

Jesus said: "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly." (John 7:24) (NIV)
The issue Jesus is going after is the pride that was in the people’s hearts which made it easy for them to see other people’s faults, but be blinded to their own. And notice what Jesus called them “you hypocrite.” Now, what's a hypocrite? Someone who pretends to be something they aren’t.

Finally, Psalm 58 talks about judging uprightly.

The Bible teaches that to give a godly rebuke is an act of kindness and to be considered a blessing to the one who receives it. A person who wants to live a life pleasing to God should be grateful that someone shows him where he has veered off the path. In Psalm 141:4-5 David says,

"Do not incline my heart to any evil thing, to practice deeds of wickedness with men who do iniquity; and do not let me eat of their delicacies. Let the righteous smite me in kindness and reprove me; it is oil upon the head; do not let my head refuse it."

In Prov. 25:12 Solomon says that a godly rebuke should be valued like fine jewelry: “Like an earring of gold and an ornament of fine gold is a wise reproof to a listening ear.” A godly rebuke should be gladly excepted, as Prov. 10:17 says, “He is on the path of life who heeds instruction, but he who forsakes reproof goes astray.” Prov. 12:1 says, “He who loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.” Prov. 15:5 says, “A fool rejects his father’s discipline, but he who regards reproof is prudent.” Prov. 29:1 says, “A man who hardens his neck after much reproof will suddenly be broken beyond remedy.”

Eccl. 7:5 says, “It is better to listen to the rebuke of a wise man than for one to listen to the song of fools.” Finally, Heb. 12:5 says, “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faint when you are reproved by Him”.