WHAT IS CHRISTUS VICTOR'S THEORY REGARDING SOLUTION FOR GOD'S WRATH ON HUMANS?

bling

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To my way of thinking, several have parts of the truth. But also, I accept, believe, that we cannot really encompass God's thoughts -- Isaiah 55 NIV -- and this is very real. So, we literally cannot understand fully. This is part of the meaning of the word "mystery" -- things that are ultimately above our thinking, though over time we can grow so that we can begin to understand partly, begin to understand some things we did not when younger. Not total understanding, but some things are so sublime it can seem as if we've got it when we reach those.
How important is atonement and why would God make it hard for us to understand atonement?

I fully agree atonement is something much better understood through experiencing atonement than an intellectual study of it. I also do not have a big issue with teaching atonement to Muslims, atheist and Buddhists, since they come with no preconceived ideas.

So, what did you experience with your atonement?
 
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Si_monfaith

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To me, the Garden of Eden story is about whether one trusts God, or instead trusts one's own....self over God. The temptation from the serpent was to distrust God, and put oneself in His place. See? Adam and Eve broke faith, by trusting themselves to take up such weighty things as judging others. They separated themselves from communion with God in that way. This is something we all can stumble into at times, so the Garden story is a story of each one of us also. We need this life experience to learn better, in one sense, I think. Or rather, it's one thing we could learn here in these mortal bodies.

I appreciate your answer but the question as rephrased is as follows:

What is the use of christus victor theory which proposes the defeat of sin/death/satan when humans are yet under God's wrath? Will that defeat save humans from eternal hell?
 
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Si_monfaith

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You seem to use God's wrath, God's cures, and people being sorrowful interchangeably?
What ever God does for willing humans including cursing, being wrathful or causing us sorrow here on earth is to help us fulfill our objective.

The "Old Law" showed us how bad we really are and deserving of God's wrath, so in that way the Law works wrath upon us, but that also helps us seeking out God's mercy and forgiveness.

Doesn't christus victor theory deny God's wrath on mankind and instead proposes that God was never angry towards mankind?
 
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GingerBeer

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WHAT IS CHRISTUS VICTOR'S THEORY REGARDING SOLUTION FOR GOD'S WRATH ON HUMANS?
I wonder how valid these ideas are. Why think of God as angry at human beings when the gospel is about God being Love? A wrathful God ready to smite sinners doesn't seem like a story about love. And these atonement theories are all sort of weird aren't they.
 
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Halbhh

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I appreciate your answer but the question as rephrased is as follows:

What is the use of christus victor theory which proposes the defeat of sin/death/satan when humans are yet under God's wrath? Will that defeat save humans from eternal hell?
The key thing I want to say in this thread is that just one single one of these statements in the various theories is not by itself the complete all that Christ did on the cross. One is not all. But more -- each theory is an attempt to reduce and distill into a simple formula what is deeper and fuller than any simple thinking can capture.

The main thing I get from reading the overviews of the various theories is that each can be mistaken where it is stated as if a full answer by itself of the entire meaning and significance of what Christ did for us on the cross.

I don't think any one of these theories do that -- say all the fullness by itself -- so the Christus Victor is also like the others in that. The value though in this statement of Christus Victor is the truth it highlights to us (so long as we don't elevate this simple statement to be a replacement for the greater fullness).

"...[Christus Victor represents] the liberation of humanity from the bondage of sin, death, and the devil. As the term Christus Victor (Christ the Victor) indicates, the idea of “ransom” should not be seen in terms (as Anselm did) of a business transaction, but more in the terms of a rescue or liberation of humanity from the slavery, and sickness, of sin."
Christus Victor - Wikipedia


" As Gustav Aulén writes, "the work of Christ is first and foremost a victory over the powers which hold mankind in bondage: sin, death, and the devil."
https://www.theopedia.com/christus-victor


Christ did break the power of sin and death! As we learn in Romans chapter 6--

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6 NIV

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So, that is a truth -- the power of sin over us is broken, so that we can be freed from sin, and when we stumble, we can confess and be cleansed, through the Grace of God to us because of Christ, through faith in Christ. The power of sin is thus broken.
 
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Halbhh

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How important is atonement and why would God make it hard for us to understand atonement?

I fully agree atonement is something much better understood through experiencing atonement than an intellectual study of it. I also do not have a big issue with teaching atonement to Muslims, atheist and Buddhists, since they come with no preconceived ideas.

So, what did you experience with your atonement?
Sure we could discuss it intellectually with non believers.

About one's own personal experience, it can be sometimes, in some instances, one of the things an individual should not best casually share outside of the circle of believers, as instructed in Matthew chapter 7, so I'll pm you.
 
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ViaCrucis

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DOES CHRISTUS VICTOR THEORY (CVT) BELIEVE GOD WAS ANGRY AT ADAM EVE?

IF YES, WHAT IS THE SOLUTION PROPOSED IN CVT?

We would first need a working definition of "God's wrath".

From the Lutheran perspective God's wrath is what sinful man beholds when he looks at God hidden behind the veil of His glory. That is, I, sinner that I am, behold God's Holy Law, seeing myself a wretch and sinner condemned under the Law with my own sins testifying against me; and here as a sinner, looking at God apart from Christ, apart from faith I see only the dread glory of the LORD Sabaoth, here He is hidden behind the dark cloud. I am only seeing the "hind parts" of God, like Moses on Mt. Horeb. I am not beholding the face of God.

However, to see God in faith, to see God clothed and revealed in the Incarnate Son, the Word made flesh, Jesus Christ our Lord is to see God face-to-face. For, Christ our God says, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father".

Without faith in Christ we never really see God, we see only a dark storm cloud that obscures Him. But the one who has faith and beholds the Lord who suffered and was crucified for our sakes sees God as God sees Himself. But rather we here behold the friendly, fatherly heart of God, whose face is turned toward us in love, grace, and all mercy. For this is God, the One who gives Himself freely for our sake. For we read in St. Paul's letter to the Philippians that Christ did not exploit His Divinity, but poured Himself out in humility, even the humility of death on a cross. He who empties Himself, who throws Himself away in love.

So the "solution" to God's wrath is the mercy that comes from God through Christ. For it is His will and desire that we know Him through His Son, and call Him Father because we have been united to His Son who is, as the author of Hebrews says, the "radiance of His glory and the express image of His Person". The Father wills to be known through His Son. And through His Son that redemption, salvation, peace, reconciliation, and the renewal of all things be accomplished that, in the End, God is all-in-all.

For, Christ having freely justified us by grace, by His life of obedience, His Passion, His death and resurrection, has made peace between us and God. For we were once at enmity with God, hostile toward God in the waywardness and awfulness of our sinful flesh--estranged, angry, hating the Maker of all things for, as the Lord Himself says, we preferred darkness to light, because our deeds are evil. But God, who is super-abundant in kindness, poured out His love for all by sending His Son, born under the Law, born of a woman, made man, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, buried, and rose again. And here, defeating the power of sin and death, and by His most perfect obedience, has made satisfaction for all men as the Just One, and thus the one who justifies the unjust by His own justice.

Having conquered every hostile power, destroying all which stood in the way of our peace and communion with God, He has given us freely His own righteousness by which we can stand before God, not as enemies, but as children. Adopted, united to Christ, and therefore heirs of God, joint-heirs with Christ. We have been justified, our sins forgiven, we have peace with God, and the hope and promise of life everlasting and of that glorious beatific vision in the Age to Come when God makes all things new.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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hedrick

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Gen 3 shows at most punishment. There's no sign that God is angry, like a human that requires some kind of pacification before he can give up his anger. The whole idea of humans offending God's honor, and God being honor-bound to require infinite punishment, seems to have come from a medieval culture based on honor. This is not the kind of mindset Christ encouraged.

But actually, the declarations of 3:17-19 are consequences of being out of the garden into the life of the world that we know. 22 doesn't say that God removed them from the garden either as a punishment or out of anger. Rather, he was protecting them from eating of the other tree, and becoming completely independent of God.

It's true that the Bible at times talks about sins as offenses against God. God cares both how we treat each other and that we based our lives on him. But he cares about that because he loves us, and that is the best thing for us both as individuals and as peoples. So he has given us rules or principles, and it is an offense against them and him if we violate them. But the OP suggests that God is insulted when we violate his rules, and reacts like a proud human who is insulted. I would say that God is upset because he knows the damage that will occur, and that all he wants is for us to repent and do better.
 
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