What interrupted the episcopal succession in Jerusalem?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Obviously, but what difference does it make? What do you want us to do with this information?

The starting point was WITHIN Judaism, the promised Jewish Moshiakh. Making a point that it is quite different than someone coming from Bahai or Buddist tradition who had no concept of a promised Jewish Moshiakh.

 

[RandyPNW]

No, frankly, I have no idea what the “original 11” you are talking about is, and I also note that you are in error concerning the history of the development of baptism and tne liturgical rite, and what is more, we are not “grafted into Israel” but rather “grafted into the Body of Christ” - what St. Paul wrote applies to anyone baptized, regardless of whether or not they were Jews.

I didn't know I was even describing the development of baptism and the liturgical rite! But I apologize if I described it improperly.

My larger point, however, is that a rigid view of church structure was not, in my thinking, something to be preserved. External religion was always downplayed, by Jesus, in favor of internal religion.

I disagree with your sense of being "grafted into the Body of Christ." Where is that even found in Scriptures?

Paul spoke of Gentile believers being unnaturally grafted onto a tree that preexisted on behalf of the Jewish People. This was the Jewish tradition under the Law of Moses and existing as a fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham. Those promises guaranteed Abraham both Israel and many nations to belong to his faith. And so, Jews grew up in that faith, and Gentiles later converted, unnaturally, to it.

Over time, Gentiles developed their own national traditions, based on Christianity. As such, they are now natural children and do not need to be grafted onto any other tradition, just as the Jews didn't have to be grafted onto a different tradition in the time of Jesus.

The early church and the Orthodox Church of today do occasionally exclude traditions which are not deemed a part of, or in some cases are regarded as incompatible with, Holy Tradition, for example, the early church discontinued celebrating Pascha on the 14th of Nissan, it anathematized belief in Chiliasm, which had at one time been popular, with Chiliast content in the writings of St. Justin Martyr, for example, and it would phase out the deaconesses as unnecessary when a combination of the widespread use of baptismal robes and a reduced need to baptize adult women made keeping them unnecessary.

I don't see the importance of dates and calendars except that they provided order for public worship. Chiliasm is something I personally believe in, and question whether the church authorities should decide for all others a matter of interpreting Rev 20. It is pretty clear that a Millennium is spoken of. Even if it was meant to be taken symbolically, nothing in the text itself demands that interpretation.

The Church rightly focused more on doctrinal orthodoxy in matters such as Trinitarianism, Christology, etc. The matter of atonement follows from the 1st two, as I see it. Justification and sanctification follows after that.

Likewise, we no longer have lay exorcists, areas of the church set aside for various categories of penitents, and so on. So the faith of the Orthodox Church is dynamic; it is only the Holy Tradition consisting of the Gospels and other scriptures and their Apostolic interpretation in the sacramental life of the Church, rather than the entire collection of traditions and practices surrounding it, that is inalterable.

I consider the traditions in dealing with penitents and exorcisms less important, in terms of external order, than dealing with them anywhere, including outside of the church proper. Jesus certainly didn't perform healings and exorcisms strictly within the temple and with priestly support!

Jesus always emphasized the internal realities more than the external adornments anyway. The liturgy isn't as important as salvation and holiness.

The original 11 I spoke of was a reference to the 11 remaining apostles after Judas was gone. My point was that there is no need to look back to preserve a particular ephemeral view of things at that time when things changed as the Gospel progressed. Whereas there were no nations but Israel originally, later there came to be many Christian nations in Europe and elsewhere.

So any argument that we should get back to or maintain some original apostolic tradition fails to recognize that internal realities are changeless, but external forms do change with time, just as circumstances change. Tradition has a place, but only so far, as I see it.

No central church structure, created within an imperial political system, can survive the destruction of that empire or the forces of democracy that break that empire apart.

The reality that there was to be many nations, and not just one, challenges any sense of a monopolistic tradition or church succession. Tradition can be of value, but what is of greatest importance is our spiritual relationship to Christ and to each other.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I don't see the importance of dates and calendars except that they provided order for public worship.

Except that Yeshua fulfilled moedim on the exact dates and times. The Church celebrates and keeps most of these major fulfillments within those dates and calendars...death and resurrection (Pascha), Shavuot (Pentecost), etc.

 

[The Liturgist]

The starting point was WITHIN Judaism, the promised Jewish Moshiakh. Making a point that it is quite different than someone coming from Bahai or Buddist tradition who had no concept of a promised Jewish Moshiakh.

It was within ancient Judaism, not the radically different religions that were formed over the centuries by (what I believe to be a minority) of Jews who have not accepted Christ.

 

[RandyPNW]

Except that Yeshua fulfilled moedim on the exact dates and times. The Church celebrates and keeps most of these major fulfillments within those dates and calendars...death and resurrection (Pascha), Shavuot (Pentecost), etc.

Yes, I like preserving history, along with tradition. Valuable way of maintaining continuity with our foundation. I just think getting caught up on the specifics of dates, etc. is clouding judgment. Spiritual unity is the basic idea--not complete agreement on ancient history.

 

[RandyPNW]

It was within ancient Judaism, not the radically different religions that were formed over the centuries by (what I believe to be a minority) of Jews who have not accepted Christ.

Yes, Rabbinic Judaism was described by Paul as a form of Judaism in which scales are now over the eyes of Jewish People. These scales can be removed through the preaching of the Gospel. But the people as a whole will not convert on a national basis until Christ returns. That's biblical prophecy.

The thing that makes Messiah Jewish for all Jews, including those in Rabbinic Judaism, is the prophecy of Messiah in the biblical Prophets. Also, the tradition of Faith remains a part of Judaism, in all of its forms, even if in corrupt forms. There is belief in God, and belief in the Scriptures, as well as belief in Messiah. This faith has been obscured, but there may still be a measure of sincere Faith in God.

When Faith is not properly informed it becomes something almost unrecognizable. And yes, that explains why Judaism has fallen so far away from its last point of genuine Faith--perhaps in the time of Nehemiah? Still, that did not prevent God from sending John the Baptist to these lost souls, because there were people like Simeon, who recognized the Messiah.

There will always be a remnant of genuine Faith among the Jewish People. But to properly ground their Faith in God, they must accept their Messiah and his proper atonement for their sins. Without it they maintain sins that separate them from genuine Faith in its totality. With sin in their lives they lack a full relationship with God.

Jews must now convert from their fall from the original Tree of Faith back to genuine Faith. How odd. 1st, we Gentiles had to convert to their Faith. And now, they have to leave their corrupted Faith to return to the true Faith we have!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It was within ancient Judaism, not the radically different religions that were formed over the centuries by (what I believe to be a minority) of Jews who have not accepted Christ.

Understand what you are saying, "since the foundation of the world". However, Yeshua did come when there were Essenes, Pharisees, Sadducees, and others WITHIN that Judaism.