What if the catholic church is true?

Wryetui

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I mean, they say they have the faith like it should be kept, they have the right, and they are based on the fact that Peter founded their church:

18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it".

I like the roman-catholic church, I received a catholic education even if my family was orthodox because we lived in Spain and at school I chose to take religion classes. But I also think our Orthodoxy holds the truth and is right, but not only that, it makes you feel in love with this faith, but that doesn't make me not feel like they may say something true... What do you think?
 

gzt

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If they're right, then they're right. If we're right, then we're right. We think we're right. We agree with Catholics about a lot of things, and I think it's definitely the case that one of us is right. I also think it's hard for a Catholic to make a case of sufficient certainty to make it a good bet for somebody who is already Orthodox to switch, especially with current Catholic ecclesiology regarding Orthodoxy.
 
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billvelek

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I mean, they say they have the faith like it should be kept, they have the right, and they are based on the fact that Peter founded their church:

18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it".

With all due respect -- and forgive me if I'm wrong -- but asking that particular question in a non-catholic group which presumably believes that THEY have the correct faith, sounds a bit like trolling. And I'm not even a member of the Eastern Orthodox church; technically I'm still a Roman Catholic. But far be it from me to discourage you from challenging or disrespecting their faith here; I'll leave that to one of the regulars here who is a member of the Oriental Orthodox. ... I'm just saying!

I like the roman-catholic church, I received a catholic education even if my family was orthodox because we lived in Spain and at school I chose to take religion classes. But I also think our Orthodoxy holds the truth and is right, but not only that, it makes you feel in love with this faith, but that doesn't make me not feel like they may say something true... What do you think?

Although I've been a life-long Catholic for 63 years, and very devout and involved in my church for the majority of that time, I now have certain negative feelings and doubts about the CURRENT Roman Catholic Church (post-Vatican II); however, along the lines of what I just said above, whenever I'm posting in OBOB (the Catholic forum) I have been pretty much reserved and very close-lipped about my differences to a very great extent, except as necessary, for example, to explain something controversial that I might have posted.

Now, from that perspective, let me go back to add some comments about your first paragraph, which was as follows:

I mean, they say they have the faith like it should be kept, they have the right, and they are based on the fact that Peter founded their church:

18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it".

Yes, the Roman Catholic Church has steadfastly claimed to "have the faith like it should be kept", but I can assure you that many traditional Catholics have serious doubts about that ever since Vatican II, and especially with several of our Popes since then, including our current Pope Francis. About the latter, I will refer you to a post I made today in OBOB in which I discuss and criticize Pope Francis.

I have been searching and learning about other religions, and I'm leaning very much in the direction of the Oriental Orthodox Church. Have you ever considered that when Jesus said that to Peter -- that He would build His church upon this rock -- that he never said nor ever meant, specifically, the Roman Catholic Church. If I recall correctly, St. Peter founded one of the churches which eventually became part of the Oriental Orthodox church (was it Antioch or Alexandria??), so it can therefore claim not only that it is an 'Apostolic' church, but also rightly that it came from St. Peter -- i.e., that THEIR church is just as much based upon St. Peter as is the Church of Rome. So have you ever considered that IF the Roman Catholic Church falls into apostasy, that His church will still survive through the Oriental Orthodox and/or the Eastern Orthodox churches?

I hope and pray that you find a satisfactory answer to your questions, through the guidance and graces of the Holy Spirit.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek
 
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dzheremi

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But far be it from me to discourage you from challenging or disrespecting their faith here; I'll leave that to one of the regulars here who is a member of the Oriental Orthodox. ... I'm just saying!

You're just saying what, exactly? :confused: Do you believe it is the interest of the Orthodox to plant doubts in a sincere young man who is asking a question? The question isn't even about the Oriental Orthodox communion. What a strange thing to say.

OP:

To me, the biggest single idea at the root of the Roman Catholic ecclesiological outlook is this very identification with St. Peter as the founder of their papacy. Unlike the Orthodox ecclesiology which says that all bishops are Peter (as their own popes said for centuries; look at Roman Pope Leo's letters to Eulogius of Alexandria written in the 6th century, for example), the Roman Catholic Church has a strange equivalency between St. Peter and their Pope that says (as the bishops said at Chalcedon, they proudly say without understanding) "Peter has spoken through the Pope" (then it was Leo, but no matter; they apply this to all of them). Every Pope. Even apparently somehow the ones who have been condemned by ecumenical councils that the Roman Catholics accept (e.g., Honorius). And so, they claim, since St. Peter was prince of the apostles, this means that their Pope is likewise to be deferred to in all things, just like St. Paul deferred to him by accepting his Judaizing tendencies as recorded in his espistle to the Galat...oh...wait. Huh. Nevermind.

It is telling to me that for the Orthodox Church, it is no problem to accept that the Roman Church was founded by St. Peter (and Antioch likewise, by St. Peter and St. Paul), and this is a factual statement (insofar as it is taken to be factual; I have known some EO who say that St. Peter was actually not bishop of Rome at any time, but even those don't make some kind of federal case out of it) that can be accepted without all the things that the Roman Catholic Church says follow from it (infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc). But for the Roman Catholic Church, they cannot seem to accept this at the same historical level, without these other things. It does make me wonder if it's really about "union with Peter", which they say we don't have (forgetting, I guess, the ancient provenance of Antioch and the idea of Alexandria as Petrine See via St. Mark), or if it's actually about all of these other things. On this basis, it seems to me that the Roman Catholic Church has a very dematerialized, almost cosmic ecclesiology. They do not want us to be in communion with St. Peter (i.e., with the Petrine Sees), but with their Pope, who is of course the extension of St. Peter throughout time forever, somehow to the exclusion of the Patriarch of Antioch or Egypt. Unless, of course, we are talking about the Roman Catholic-aligned Patriarchs they have set up in those places (several in Antioch alone: one for the Maronites, another for the Melkite Greek Catholics, and another still for the Syriac Catholics broken from the Syriac Orthodox Church in the 17th century).

So...what exactly seems to you like it could be right about this situation? If you do not believe in the permanent, exclusive, basically metaphysical equation of St. Peter = the Roman Pope (world without end, forever and ever, etc.), then how could it possibly be the case that the Roman Catholic Church is correct?

I would add to that that by the strictures that they have placed on their ecclesiological vision of the Church, all of our bishops are basically irrelevant. Whether you're Orthodox or Catholic (Western or any other flavor), Chalcedonian or Non-Chalcedonian, black or white, red or green, paper or plastic...it doesn't matter. Many Catholics will tell you that it is the bishops (or cardinals) plus the Pope which makes for a "Catholic" understanding or promulgation of doctrine, so as to make it sound as conciliar and not dependent on one man as they can. This is not, however, what their own documents say. From Pastor Aeternus, the dogmatic constitution of the first Vatican Council (1870), we read:

"Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable."

Notice that last bit, "not by consent of the Church"? And they justify this based on "the divine assistance promised to him [i.e., their Pope] in blessed Peter", according to the document itself. I point this out only to show the real life connection between their typological classification of their Pope with St. Peter, to show how far it goes and the real effect it has on their doctrine. I don't doubt that such talk would be monstrous (at best!) to any Orthodox Christian. If it is not by the consent of the Church, then why even have other bishops? Why have councils? What is the point of all of Christian history and faith? What exactly is the Church in the first place?

Again, what about this set-up seems like it could be correct? Did Christ call the twelve to Him, or one to Him and the other eleven to Peter? Or as St. Paul the Apostle asked the Corinthians (1 Cor. 1:12-13), "Now I say this, that each of you says, 'I am of Paul,' or 'I am of Apollos,' or 'I am of Cephas,' or 'I am of Christ.' Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"
 
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Amen. There is always that chance that Joseph Smith was right as a Mormon prophet, but I place those odds at 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 and that's up from my odds from last week! :p

if Rome is true then Orthodoxy is false. fortunately, history and Scripture are not on Rome's side
 
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Here's my advice: stay Orthodox, bro! You can't go wrong in the faith of Christ, 2000 years strong. And considering the state of affairs in the Catholic Church---the liturgical mess they have, the scandals, the super liberal humanist pope, the medieval and legalistic approach to Christ, the filioque, and a host of other stuff, don't even consider making that detour! Press on! :crosseo:

Thank you for the answers. I would have posted it on OBOB, but I did read somewhere that you can't post some kind of posts on a forum which your fairh don't belong.
 
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Wryetui

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Oh not a chance! I was just asking, well, I didn't even know you can be baptised again as a Catholic. I don't think religion and christianity should change, like the vatican says, to adapt modern times. Since when we change Christ teachings to adapt them at our decayed will?
 
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gzt

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I don't think it's accurate to say the Vatican says religion and Christianity should change to adapt to modern times in the way you suggest they do - it's important to accurately represent those you disagree with.
 
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billvelek

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You're just saying what, exactly? :confused: Do you believe it is the interest of the Orthodox to plant doubts in a sincere young man who is asking a question? The question isn't even about the Oriental Orthodox communion. What a strange thing to say.

You are correct that it was a strange thing for me to defer further commentary to 'Oriental' Orthodox in an 'Eastern' Orthodox forum; I should have said the latter. I erroneously said 'Oriental' when I meant to say 'Eastern'; the error was a result of my adding that line after I had just finished writing about the 'Oriental' in my next-to-last paragraph, and that term stuck in my mind when I revised my first paragraph. Just a simple human mistake, for which I beg forgiveness, and I'm sorry it caused any confusion for you.

Now, you are confusing me when you ask: "Do you believe it is the interest of the Orthodox to plant doubts in a sincere young man who is asking a question?" I was NOT suggesting that anyone -- Orthodox or otherwise, including myself -- should plant doubts in anyone. The point that I was making is that I didn't think that starting a thread in ANY forum, questioning or suggesting that the very faith of that particular forum is a false religion (which is essentially what I took from the OP), is very welcome at all. For example, I'm pretty sure the rules in OBOB state that you can't just barge in there and start your own thread accusing Catholics of having false dogma, etc. REGARDLESS of whether THIS forum has similar 'rules', I still consider it ill-mannered and likely to start an argument -- thus my allusion to "trolling". Where does any of that 'plant doubts' or suggest that regular members here would 'plant doubts'? The OP ALREADY has doubts, regardless of my post. Now, if you would have read the rest of my post, I think you might have found that I am pretty much on your side and in agreement with you. I might have not been as clear, accurate, or complete as you -- but I did state that there are reasons to believe that the Orthodox churches can make a claim to a lineage back to the chair of Peter which is every bit as legitimate as the Roman Catholic Church. If you did read my entire post and recognized that, as such, I'm curious as to why you chose to dig me for my mistake about 'Oriental' vs. 'Eastern' instead of just giving me a pass.

In any event, peace and love to you and yours.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek
 
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What they say and what they're doing, well, you know. The pope is taking traditionalists with old-school morality OUT of power and replacing the Cardinal Burke's of the world with ultra liberal humanist type wimps. And his statements publically are some of the WORST nonsense I've ever heard from anyone in Catholicism. They sound more like Episcopalian ideas than anything. They're going down a bad road.

I don't think it's accurate to say the Vatican says religion and Christianity should change to adapt to modern times in the way you suggest they do - it's important to accurately represent those you disagree with.
 
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SuperCloud

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I mean, they say they have the faith like it should be kept, they have the right, and they are based on the fact that Peter founded their church:

18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it".

I like the roman-catholic church, I received a catholic education even if my family was orthodox because we lived in Spain and at school I chose to take religion classes. But I also think our Orthodoxy holds the truth and is right, but not only that, it makes you feel in love with this faith, but that doesn't make me not feel like they may say something true... What do you think?

The Catholic and Orthodox Church have Apostolic Succession. Religion aside I would conclude this to be true just on the archeological evidence alone.

If Shanghai claimed to be a part of the original United States of America and called New York City's claim to that false (as the Protestant do to Catholicism) then on archeological evidence I would side with New York City.

The Catholic Church in part damages the image of Christianity by allowing Protestantism the privilege of ring generalship--as a rule of thumb in boxing you never fight your opponents fight. Protestant's keep the narrative of Christianity confined to the West. All Christian history took place between Rome and Geneva. Protestantism being the great protagonist hero and the Catholic Church the evil antagonist. Not a word of Eastern Christianity is mentioned. But perhaps this control of the narrative works in the best interests of the human characters presiding over both Protestantism and Catholicism, because third way Orthodoxy is never brought up to the readers or audience.

Like the Feast Day of Christmas. Catholics play into this Protestant narrative but from the position of the smaller, thinner, boy running on the beach being chased by the bigger kid. When the reality is that Catholicism adopted the celebration of Christ's birthday from the Coptics of Egypt who are Oriental Orthodox.

At any rate... I'm beginning to like Pope Francis more and more. The recent revelations of the Franciscan Order facing bankruptcy after being financially embroiled in arms trafficking and drug dealing rocked me. I could not have imagined the corruption within the Catholic Church was so deep. And now I don't want to know any more in fear I will find out it's all 100 times worse than what I even imagine. Pope Francis has possibly been aware of the deep decay in the Church for which no "conservative" Catholic has had any concern with dealing with. In fact, they may have been complicit. Perhaps God almighty has moved Pope Francis to tell the world to back off homosexuals and women that have abortions. I don't know.

If God were to tell me homosexuality is to be despised then I would attempt to go that course. If God told me homosexuality is not to be despised but those uncharitable towards homosexuals, those using the Church funds to enrich themselves are to be despised, then I would attempt to go that course. I'm not really for rules or hatreds merely for rules and hatreds.

So, my prayers for Pope Francis to God are usually of this sort: "God, if Pope Francis is your man then guide him and protect him."

I have been critical of Pope Francis many times. But it may be possible he is right and I am wrong.

Overall I have more troubles with a lot of Catholic history then I do with Orthodox. It has always bothered me that Catholicism was so heavily involved in the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. And while liberal Catholics are thrilled with the development of the Social Justice teaching in the Catholic Church which began in the 1800s, teachings that appeal to me mind you, I always had problems that Catholicism flip flopped on labor justice from the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade to caring about the "freedom" and just wages of white labor during the Industrial Revolution of the 1800s.

And The Catholic Church continues to flip flop on issues. It's now tied its ship to democracy, freedom of religion and essentially "Americanism." But Catholicism seems to have a history of riding the coattails of empires. However, the USA has been and is engaged in some of the most wicked things across planet earth. What happens after the USA declines and is no longer and empire as it is today, and the new powers compose books revealing all the wicked wars and government overthrows the USA aligned with Catholicism was involved in?

The Greek Orthodox Church--for whatever historical faults it may have had--never was involved in the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade and the subjugation of Amerindians from Brazil to Wisconsin. But Catholic religious orders were.

One of the most remarkable of Catholic religious orders has been the Jesuits though. Whatever one thinks of them today they certainly were ahead of their time back in what? the 1500s or 1600s? I find the history of the Jesuits even more remarkable than that of the history of the USA. In fact, having read about them traveling (at times *individually*) out in "Oregon Country" before it became part of the USA, these men were more courageous and selfless than U.S. Navy SEALs. You'd have to read how violent (a savage violence by our standards now but even then) some of the warrior Amerindian tribes in that region were. Man! I would have been frightened to death walking alone and coming upon some of those warrior Indians.
 
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billvelek

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Snipped a very nice post by SuperCloud; if you haven't read it, it is here: ... just click on the button next to the name 'SuperCloud'.

I'm in the process of trying to learn as much as possible about the differences between Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholic Church, including histories.

Peace be with you.

Your brother in Christ,

Bill Velek
 
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AndreaSuzanna

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The Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is unbiblical. In John 6:63 it is clear that Yeshua speaks of why it is the spirit that quickens and that the flesh profits nothing, that His words are spirit and life. I realize Catholic priests believe they can literally consecrate the literal flesh, blood and soul of Yeshua in what they call the Holy Eucharist, but how is this possible when Yeshua clarified that it is the Spirit that quickens, the flesh profits nothing. Yes I believe there are Catholics who take Yeshua literally when He states "My flesh is real food and My blood is real drink." But he did furthermore state that it is the spirit that quickens and that the flesh profits nothing. If this is true, which it is according to the King James Version Bible of John 6:63-64, then how can the priest consecrate the literal flesh of Yeshua in a wafer of bread during the Liturgy of the Eucharist? I realize there are very good catholics in this world, my mom is one of them, but how can a Christian worship Yeshua in spirit and in truth (John 4:23) if they are part of a religious system that preaches a false doctrine? Transubstantiation was discovered in 1214 AD and was mandated in all Catholic Churches in 1215 AD. So if one has to be saved through partaking in the Eucharist under the Paschal Mystery, what happened to Catholic Christians before 1214 AD when Transubstantiation didn't exist?
 
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It is entirely possible that transubstantiation is perfectly fine. Orthodox do not employ the term as it is unnecessary. But we do believe the Eucharist is fully Christ, body, soul, everything. How it occurs is just not something we try to comprehend. Some Orthodox priests I've read use transubstantiation terminology. I don't think it's fair to call it "unbiblical."

The Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is unbiblical. In John 6:63 it is clear that Yeshua speaks of why it is the spirit that quickens and that the flesh profits nothing, that His words are spirit and life. I realize Catholic priests believe they can literally consecrate the literal flesh, blood and soul of Yeshua in what they call the Holy Eucharist, but how is this possible when Yeshua clarified that it is the Spirit that quickens, the flesh profits nothing. Yes I believe there are Catholics who take Yeshua literally when He states "My flesh is real food and My blood is real drink." But he did furthermore state that it is the spirit that quickens and that the flesh profits nothing. If this is true, which it is according to the King James Version Bible of John 6:63-64, they how can the priest consecrate the literal flesh of Yeshua in a wafer of bread during the Liturgy of the Eucharist? I realize there are very good catholics in this world, my mom is one of them, but how can a Christian worship Yeshua in spirit and in truth (John 4:23) if they are part of a religious system that preaches a false doctrine? Transubstantiation was discovered in 1214 AD and was mandated in all Catholic Churches in 1215 AD. So if one has to be saved through partaking in the Eucharist under the Paschal Mystery, what happened to Catholic Christians before 1214 AD when Transubstantiation didn't exist???
 
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