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What Happened To People In The Old Testament When They Died?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by etr2013, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. etr2013

    etr2013 Newbie

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    What happened to people in the Old Testament when they died? Where did the "believers" go and where did the "non-believers" go? Please use scripture references in your reply, I'm a new babe in Christ so I appreciate it when people can share information but use the Bible to confirm what they are stating.

    Also, when we die here and now, do we immediately go to be with God if we have accepted His gift of salvation and do those that haven't accepted immediately go to hell?

    Is the soul the only part of us that enters heaven/hell?
     
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  2. Nova Scotian Boy

    Nova Scotian Boy Grand Sasquatch

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    Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

    The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. The psalmist wrote, “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:12). Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness (see also Romans 4:3-8). The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.

    What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

    Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28).

    What about believers in Christ's day, prior to the cross and resurrection? What did they believe? Did they understand the full picture of Christ dying on a cross for their sins? Late in His ministry, “Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life” (Matthew 16:21-22). What was the reaction of His disciples to this message? “Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ‘Never, Lord!’ he said. ‘This shall never happen to you!’” Peter and the other disciples did not know the full truth, yet they were saved because they believed that God would take care of their sin problem. They didn't exactly know how He would accomplish that, any more than Adam, Abraham, Moses, or David knew how, but they believed God.

    Today, we have more revelation than the people living before the resurrection of Christ; we know the full picture. “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:1-2). Our salvation is still based on the death of Christ, our faith is still the requirement for salvation, and the object of our faith is still God. Today, for us, the content of our faith is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
     
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  3. Tangible

    Tangible 100% Saint & 100% Sinner

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    Good response. I would only add that salvation has always been by grace, through faith, not from anything man could do, deserve, or decide.
     
  4. Nova Scotian Boy

    Nova Scotian Boy Grand Sasquatch

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    I would also say that, and if i came across other wise it was not my intent.
     
  5. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand

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    they both go to the same place! here's what the bible says:



    Ecclesiastes 9:5,10(NKJV)
    5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten...10Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

    the "living" are "believers" and "non-believers" and when we die we are going to the grave (gen 3:19)!

    i just wish people would remember that resurrection is our hope (1cor 15:16-18)

    also, remember heb 9:27!



    the false notion of dying and going to either heaven or hell at death is simply not found in the bible! they are false notions that have crept into christianity through pagan beliefs, again remember heb 9:27.

    Jesus said:


    John 3:13(NKJV)
    13No one has ascended to heaven... (i think that would include the people from the old testament!)

    why people believe the opposite of what the Christ has said about the matter is beyond me, but for some reason they do.

    here again proving that no one goes to heaven at death is the apostle paul:


    Acts 2:29,34(NKJV)
    29“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day...34“For David did not ascend into the heavens,...

    surely, if anyone went to heaven, it would be david, a man described as being after God's own heart (1sam 13:14).

    but that's not the case because he is both dead and buried!


    another myth!

    man does not have a soul. man is a soul!

    there is nothing in or about man that can live of itself, we are mortal beings (lev 17:11,14).

    read gen 2:7 very carefully and you'll see that "man became a living soul" not "man has a living soul"!

    and God says that the soul who sins shall die - ezek 18:4,20!

    i've generally found that people believe the opposite of what the bible says.

    people belive we die and go to heaven or hell , where the bilbe says the opposite.

    people believe we have a soul where the bible says we are a soul.

    if the bible says "up", people advocate "down".

    and the list goes on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
  6. Emmy

    Emmy Senior Veteran

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    Dear etr2013. In John 14, verse 2 and 3, Jesus tells His Disciples that He is going to prepare a place for them in His Father`s House with many mansions, when they die. Verse 3 says:" I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, ye may be also." That is in the New Testament.
    After Jesus had risen, He went for three days visiting the souls from the Old Testament. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
     
  7. The ground. Both believers and unbelievers died and are dead, and await the resurrection of the dead and the final judgment. Being resurrected and judged righteous is our hope today, too.
     
  8. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee CF Ambassadors CF Ambassador

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    The believers went to paradise (also called Abraham's bosom) ( see Luke 16:22a) The wicked went to hell (hades if you prefer that word) (see Luke 16:22b-23a)
     
  9. Sav3dbygrac3

    Sav3dbygrac3 Newbie

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    You bring up some valid points, but how do we explain these verse's?

    Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
    Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
    Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
    Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

    1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
     
  10. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    hi...although we can only touch on the subject here, i'll start it off by posting the following...

    their spirit went to be with God in heaven...
    they "figuratively sleep" from the earth,
    but are very much alive in heaven...

    here's OT proof


    Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


    also consider Samuel 1:28

    Yes...
    here's NT scripture proof


    Jesus teaches us a few things when He said to the thief on the cross,
    that He will see Him in paradise that day

    Jesus also gives us the example of Lazarus and the bad rich man...
    BOTH were in heaven,
    Lazarus was on the happy side,
    and the rich man was on the not so happy side
    but both were there.

    there's plenty more...
    i like the Revelation's examples..they are easy to follow

    consider Rev6:9-11, 5th seal martyrs...
    and Rev12:10-12 heavenly declaration by the dead
    and Rev19:1-3's multitude singing in heaven
    and Rev19:10 and Rev22:8-9,16's angel who used to be one of us.


    everyone goes to heaven...good or bad...but there is two sides to it

    hell is a study all it's own...
    more than one word is translated into hell, and they have different meanings.

    sheol(hebrew)/hades(greek) means the grave, where your body goes...dust to dust
    tartarus is the greek word for the demon's/evil angels prison
    gehenna (derived from hebrew) is the worst place imaginable,
    which at the time was the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem,
    but historically was where idolatry and human sacrifice went on

    hell can also be a condition...a state of mind...



    people speak of spirit and soul as the same...
    it is a debatable subject....
    i think today that when we say "soul" i think we mean "spirit"
    our bodies return to the dust, and stay there forever.
    our "soul" or "spirit" returns to the Father who gave it
    we exist in heaven with spiritual bodies, and will be raised back here on the last day, in those spiritual bodies,
    when the Lord Comes from heaven with the dead and raises them here (1Thes413-16/1Cor15 whole chapter, specifically :51f)

    as i said, this post only just touches on all the biblical evidence that folks exist consciously in heaven until it is time for them to be raised here...
     
  11. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    John3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


    this IMO speaks of the fact that Christ alone has Come from heaven and ascended to heaven...
    it doesn't mean that no one else is there....
    it means that Christ was seen doing the assending...

    David was not...etc.
    but David is there...as Samuel is...Sam1, as Moses is...Jude1


    Acts2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
    34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


    this is saying that not even David was as Christ is...
    only Christ sits at the right hand of God...
     
  12. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand

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    well, we still can't say that we go to heaven because that would contradict the scripture that i've already cited, although i see posts that insist on making the scripture contradict itself.

    the crux of the scripture you quote is "having a desire to depart". however, this does not mean that paul is saying that he would go to heaven. obiviously, he means to depart from this life (as in die) and the next step is to be with Christ at the time of the first resurrection (1thess 4:16)!

    we are to recieve the promise of eternal life at the same time as all who are in Christ per heb 11:39, which is consistent with what paul wrote:

    1 Corinthians 15:22-23(NKJV)
    22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
    23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (see also rev 20:6)

    there's a certain order as to how this comes about, of which, no one ever wants to acknowledge or talk about. otherwise, why wouldn't we just pray for death?

    but that wouldn't make sense since the scripture tells us that death is our enemy (1cor 15:26)!



    the key points in these verses are the second coming, the time of the first resurrection (again, rev 20:6)!

    John 5:28(NKJV)
    28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

    see? Jesus knows where one goes at death! how is it that we don't?

    revelation is a prophetic book and uses a lot of symbolism. are we expected to see a literal beast rising out of the sea?
     
  13. Sav3dbygrac3

    Sav3dbygrac3 Newbie

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    I agree about the verse from revelation that it could possibly be symbolism and so its not definitive proof. However, your interpretation of the verses in Philippians is a bit of a stretch. I mean why would Paul be concerning himself with false hope? Why would he even bother to "desire" something that couldnt happen? You make the suggestion that there would be an interval of time between his death and actually being with Christ, in other words, he would only be with him in the resurrection, but the text doesn't suggest that at all.

    And what about this verse?

    Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    I know you will say the comma is in the wrong place but that is unlikely, because Jesus says "Verily I say unto you" over 70 times in all four gospels combined and he never said "Verliy I say unto you today," with the comma after today.

    Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Mat_5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
    Mat_6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
    Mat_6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
    Mat_6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
    Mat_8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
    Mat_10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
    Mat_10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
    Mat_10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
    Mat_11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
    Mat_13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
    Mat_16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
    Mat_17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
    Mat_18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    Mat_18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
    Mat_18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    Mat_19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    Mat_19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    Mat_21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
    Mat_21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
    Mat_23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    Mat_24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    Mat_24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
    Mat_25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    Mat_25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Mat_25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    Mat_26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.
    Mat_26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
    Mat_26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
    Mar_3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
    Mar_6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
    Mar_8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
    Mar_9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
    Mar_9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
    Mar_9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
    Mar_10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
    Mar_10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
    Mar_11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
    Mar_12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
    Mar_13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
    Mar_14:9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.
    Mar_14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
    Mar_14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
    Mar_14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
    Luk_4:24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
    Luk_11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
    Luk_12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
    Luk_13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
    Luk_18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
    Luk_18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
    Luk_21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
    Joh_1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
    Joh_3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    Joh_3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    Joh_3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    Joh_5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
    Joh_5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    Joh_5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    Joh_6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
    Joh_6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
    Joh_6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    Joh_6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
    Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    Joh_8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
    Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    Joh_10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
    Joh_10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
    Joh_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
    Joh_13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
    Joh_13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
    Joh_13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
    Joh_13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
    Joh_14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    Joh_16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
    Joh_16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
    Joh_21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

    So lets be honest with ourselves, what is the likely hood that he said "Verly I say unto you today, thou shalt be with me in paradise" It would be the one and only place that he spoke like that.
     
  14. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand

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    i don't make the suggestion, it's what the bible says! otherwise, we'd get into contradictory statements.

    that's why i stated that people don't acknowledge that there is an order in the way the process will play out!

    and i simply don't see paul deluding himself with false hope.



    the likely hood is great, since the paradise won't be until the second coming!

    read isaiah 11 and notice the time of the prophecy - verses 10 and 11!
     
  15. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    the "resurrection" is God bringing with Him, from heaven, the dead in Christ,
    and raising them here to live on earth again, as they had before, but in incorruptible bodies, not flesh ones...
    the same kind of body that they exist in heaven while they wait the resurrection


    1Cor15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
    30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
    31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
    32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
    33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
    34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


    1Thes4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


    so if Christ descends from heaven, and brings with Him the dead in Christ, then what else can be said?
    figurative...all the dead...
    it doesn't imply that the dead are literally in the grave, spirit and all...
    the spirit returns to the Father who gave it


    He does indeed....and He explained it with Lazarus and the rich man.

    our bodies return to the dust from whence it came...but the spirit, that returns to God

    conscious too!


    nope...but we are to take heed of the things reported in it...
    it's no less inspired than the other biblical books

    and all of the symbols found in the book are found somewhere, elsewhere in the bible

    so when we read of the conscious martyrs in the 5th seal,
    and the heavenly declarations made by the dead in Rev12 and Rev19,
    and the fact that the angel in Rev19 and 22 was a former brethren of us
    we can know that the important part of the dead, the part that matters, is in heaven with Jesus, awaiting the resurrection
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
  16. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand

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    here you contradict jn 3:13 and acts 2:29,34, so i can't go with you on that!

    to me, either you believe your bible or you don't and with what you're saying, says to me that you don't!

    and the resurrection is this:


    Romans 4:17(NKJV)
    17...God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;


    the giving of life to the dead!

    seems plain to me.



    this is just saying that we will have a different body than we have now at the time of the resurrection. i thought everyone knew that.



    i'll stick with what the Christ said in jn 5:28 because i think He meant what He said.

    i believe that "lazarus and the rich man" is a parable and i believe the bible when it says "the dead know nothing".

    i don't want to make anything up.
     
  17. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    that's 1Thes4, strait out...so don't argue with me.
    and i contradict nothing...you simply misunderstand the point that the author(s) was making.
    it's not about the dead in heaven...it's about who among us as done what Christ has done

    no one...no one has ascended of His own
    no one sits at His right hand, not even David
    God has Glorified no one, as Christ is Glorified
    but plenty of us are there today! waiting...

    please don't say things like that...
    it shows your immaturity/youth in Christ
    i'm sure we both believe the bible...
    but you seem to ignore the scriptures i gave that clearly show the dead conscious in heaven
    while i try to reconcile those factual teachings with that of John3 and Acts2

    and the only way to do that is to understand that all the dead are in heaven now,
    and that only Christ has done the things accredited to Him, not any of them, including David.


    sure...and it's spoken of in many other scriptures

    1Thes4 is pretty plain to me...it's a comfort to know what happens to the dead.


    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    did you get that part?
    Bring with Him...

    from where? heaven ....


    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    sure...on the last day!
    the dead are brought from heaven and raised here


    and? it's the same body that the dead have in heaven...
    i thought everyone knew that?

    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
    30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
    32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


    34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

    you die, you are quickened....into a spiritual body, incorruptible
    that's the kind of body those of us who are alive at His Coming will be changed to

    we'll match

    as He meant with His heavenly mentionings of Lazarus, and Solomon, and the prophet/angel of Rev19/22 ?
    and the multitudes in heaven in Rev 5, 7, 12 and 19?




    it might be a parable, it might not be...
    it is never said to be one as other parables are outright said to be.

    the dead know nothing, is meant as a deterrent to us seeking them for advice, etc.
    demons can pretend to be them...and do...
    the dead are not allowed to come and communicate to us, unless God sends them.
    but He does send them in the bible. Samuel for one, and the angel in Rev19/22 for another
    so you are probably misunderstanding the part about the dead knowing nothing,
    because we actually have biblical examples of the dead knowing stuff


    who does?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
  18. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand

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    i'm not arguing with you. i'm pointing out the fact that the bible doesn't say that anyone is in heaven as you contend! i thought i made it plain in my post #12.

    so, let's go to the "video tape":

    gen 3:19, God says to dust you shall return, not heaven!

    eccl 9:10, the grave where you are going, not heaven!

    jn 5:28, all who are in the graves, not heaven!

    jn 3:13, no one has ascended to heaven!

    acts 2:29,34, david did not ascend to heaven!

    so i concluded that you don't believe what the bible says! seems obvious to me because you keep saying that the dead is in heaven now!


    look at 1thess 4:16.

    who is descending from heaven? answer: the Christ.

    who are rising? answer: the dead.

    from where are the dead rising? answer: the grave, not heaven!

    when the dead rise they will meet the Lord in the clouds, not heaven.

    look, see for yourself:

    Matthew 16:27(NKJV)
    27For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

    He's coming with His angels, not dead people that are in heaven!

    now look at this verse which ties to 1thess 4:16:

    Matthew 24:31(NKJV)
    31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (see also lk 16:22)

    in matt 24:31, heaven refers to the sky above us, the four winds is the clue, which makes this verse in concert with 1thess 4:16-17!

    so yes, Jesus is bringing the elect with Him to jerusalem, when they meet Him in the sky!



    what you have written here would contradict heb 11:39-40!

    speaking of the patriarchs of old, the author says:

    Hebrews 11:39-40(NKJV)
    39And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
    40God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.


    they haven't received the promise of eternal life yet and verse 40 tell us why!

    further proof:

    1 Corinthians 15:50(NKJV)
    50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.


    Matthew 25:31-34(NKJV)
    31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him (not dead people), then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
    32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
    33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    at the second coming is when heb 11:39-40 will be fulfilled!

    not much room for response on this, just suffice it to say that i don't agree with this assessment.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
  19. revrobor

    revrobor Veteran

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    Yes the Believers go to Paradise (just as Jesus told the thief on the cross) to await the judgments. Those who reject God's salvation go to Hades to await the judgments. Hades is not Hell. It is the holding place for the lost. Gehenna is Hell. No one goes to Heaven or Hell until after the judgments.
     
  20. MoreCoffee

    MoreCoffee CF Ambassadors CF Ambassador

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    Revelation 6 tells us that the souls of the martyrs are under the altar in heaven. I reckon that they are in heaven, how about you?
    When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?" Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been. (Revelation 6:9-11)
     
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