What Happened To People In The Old Testament When They Died?

[Tangible]

No one goes to Heaven or Hell until after the judgments.

I assume here that you mean Heaven as the eternal Heaven, the New Earth, not the intermediate state?

After the Eschaton, Judgement Day, there will be no need for the saved to go to Heaven, since they will have been resurrected and rejoined with their new physical bodies. Heaven (the spiritual abode of the Father and his angels) will be emptied of the souls of men. After the judgement the saved will live forever in the New Earth.

 

[revrobor]

I assume here that you mean Heaven as the eternal Heaven, the New Earth, not the intermediate state?

After the Eschaton, Judgement Day, there will be no need for the saved to go to Heaven, since they will have been resurrected and rejoined with their new physical bodies. Heaven (the spiritual abode of the Father and his angels) will be emptied of the souls of men. After the judgement the saved will live forever in the New Earth.

I used "Heaven" because that's what most people understand. The truth is no one goes to Heaven. As you said our eternal home is the New Earth. The "intermediate state" is Paradise.

 

[Lion King]

I used "Heaven" because that's what most people understand. The truth is no one goes to Heaven. As you said our eternal home is the New Earth. The "intermediate state" is Paradise.

Isn't Paradise like the final place where all the saints will reside forever after the resurrection of the dead?

 

[revrobor]

Isn't Paradise like the final place where all the saints will reside forever after the resurrection of the dead?

No. The New Earth Is. Read Rev. 21.

 

[Lion King]

No. The New Earth Is. Read Rev. 21.

Thanks.

Again, isn't the New Jerusalem, just another name for Paradise of God? I mean, both Paradise and New Jerusalem are said to contain the TREE OF LIFE, after all. Where is Paradise at moment? I believe Paul spoke of being caught up in the third heaven- Paradise.

I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 2 Corinthians 12:1-5


Now correct me if im wrong, but won't the Paradise of God descend from the New Heaven to the New Earth after the resurrection of the dead as said in Rev 21?

 

[SharonL]

2 Cor. 5:8 - Absent from the body, present with the Lord. - states it very clear.


The Bible tells us that the body is the "house" in which our spirit or soul lives. Our body is not really us; it is just the house in which our soul lives in. We can understand this because we live in a house. The house is not us; it is just the place where we live. If the house that you lived in burned to the ground so all that was left was dust and ashes, would you not move to another home? The same is true with your soul once your physical human body dies. What happens when a Christian dies? His soul goes to be with the Lord. The apostle Paul tells us at
2 Corinthians 5:8, "that when we are absent from our bodies we are present with the lord".
At death all souls go back to God, and Ezekiel 18:4 tells us who exactly "owns" your soul. "Look! All the souls--to me they belong."

The angels escort our souls to be with the Lord

 

[revrobor]

2 Cor. 5:8 - Absent from the body, present with the Lord. - states it very clear.


The Bible tells us that the body is the "house" in which our spirit or soul lives. Our body is not really us; it is just the house in which our soul lives in. We can understand this because we live in a house. The house is not us; it is just the place where we live. If the house that you lived in burned to the ground so all that was left was dust and ashes, would you not move to another home? The same is true with your soul once your physical human body dies. What happens when a Christian dies? His soul goes to be with the Lord. The apostle Paul tells us at
2 Corinthians 5:8, "that when we are absent from our bodies we are present with the lord".
At death all souls go back to God, and Ezekiel 18:4 tells us who exactly "owns" your soul. "Look! All the souls--to me they belong."

The angels escort our souls to be with the Lord

In spite of what some believe about Jesus just "sitting at the right hand of God" (which is a statement of honor not an actual position) Jesus is in Paradise as He "prepares a place for us". Paradise is not Heaven. It is the holding place for the righteous dead awaiting judgment.

 

[JohnRabbit]

2 Cor. 5:8 - Absent from the body, present with the Lord. - states it very clear.


The Bible tells us that the body is the "house" in which our spirit or soul lives. Our body is not really us; it is just the house in which our soul lives in. We can understand this because we live in a house. The house is not us; it is just the place where we live. If the house that you lived in burned to the ground so all that was left was dust and ashes, would you not move to another home? The same is true with your soul once your physical human body dies. What happens when a Christian dies? His soul goes to be with the Lord. The apostle Paul tells us at
2 Corinthians 5:8, "that when we are absent from our bodies we are present with the lord".
At death all souls go back to God, and Ezekiel 18:4 tells us who exactly "owns" your soul. "Look! All the souls--to me they belong."

The angels escort our souls to be with the Lord

so then there's not such thing as death?

from what i read from you no one dies.

 

[SharonL]

so then there's not such thing as death?

from what i read from you no one dies.

Your body dies, but not your soul.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Your body dies, but not your soul.

not according to ezk 18:4!

Ezekiel 18:4(NKJV)
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

says the soul shall die.

that's different from what you're saying!

is it not?

 

[Lion King]

In spite of what some believe about Jesus just "sitting at the right hand of God" (which is a statement of honor not an actual position) Jesus is in Paradise as He "prepares a place for us". Paradise is not Heaven. It is the holding place for the righteous dead awaiting judgment.

So, Christ is not in heaven? Didn't Christ say He was going to the Father though?

You have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If you loved me, you would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John 14:28

By the way, where is Paradise?

 

[revrobor]

So, Christ is not in heaven? Didn't Christ say He was going to the Father though?

You have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If you loved me, you would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. John 14:28

By the way, where is Paradise?

Of course Jesus is in Heaven. He is not restricted to just sitting there. He also is in Paradise. No one knows where Paradise is just as no one knows where Heaven or Hell are. Being with (or without) God is what is important.

 

[ptomwebster]

not according to ezk 18:4!

Ezekiel 18:4(NKJV)
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

says the soul shall die.

that's different from what you're saying!

is it not?

That is the second death not the first.

 

[Lion King]

Of course Jesus is in Heaven. He is not restricted to just sitting there. He also is in Paradise. No one knows where Paradise is just as no one knows where Heaven or Hell are. Being with (or without) God is what is important.

This place being prepared for us, isn't it in heaven though? Isn't New Jerusalem/The Holy City of God/Mt Zion in heaven at the moment?

But you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Hebrews 12:22


Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. Revelation 21:1-3

 

[ptomwebster]

... Jesus is in Paradise as He "prepares a place for us". Paradise is not Heaven. It is the holding place for the righteous dead awaiting judgment.

I totally disagree with your view of Heaven and Paradise. It is not the topic for now, I just wanted to bring it up.

 

[Lysimachus]

Zeke37,

Concerning your argument about "bringing with Him" the sleeping saints, I have thoroughly addressed this argument comprehensively in this post here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7679155-2/#post61161076

 

[revrobor]

I totally disagree with your view of Heaven and Paradise. It is not the topic for now, I just wanted to bring it up.

It's not my view, it's Gods.

 

[zeke37]

i'm not arguing with you. i'm pointing out the fact that the bible doesn't say that anyone is in heaven as you contend! i thought i made it plain in my post #12.

you made your opinion clear.
i say your opinion is flawed.

so, let's go to the "video tape":

gen 3:19, God says to dust you shall return, not heaven!

eccl 9:10, the grave where you are going, not heaven!

jn 5:28, all who are in the graves, not heaven!

i suggest that you read Ecc3:20-21.
the author shows the difference between the flesh rotting body in the grave, and the spirit/soul that returns to God

also, visit this site...
The Consciousness of the Soul After Death | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

jn 3:13, no one has ascended to heaven!

acts 2:29,34, david did not ascend to heaven!

no one did what Christ did...ascended to heaven as He did. Bodily.
not even David

so i concluded that you don't believe what the bible says! seems obvious to me because you keep saying that the dead is in heaven now!

they are in heaven now...their flesh is in the grave, but the rest of them is not.

how do you reconcile the scriptures i showed/referred to....
you did not even address them at all.

look at 1thess 4:16.

who is descending from heaven? answer: the Christ.

and who does He bring with Him? the dead

so, He's in heaven, He leaves heaven, and brings with Him the dead in Christ

who are rising? answer: the dead.
from where are the dead rising? answer: the grave, not heaven!

ummm. no....that flesh is dust...that flesh never rises.
it's the spiritual/heavenly body that leaves heaven with Christ, and rises here.
That's the resurrection

when the dead rise they will meet the Lord in the clouds, not heaven.

they "rise" because they come from heaven with Christ at His Coming,
and are "raised" here on earth
then after they are raised, the alive are gathered together with them

caught up is an english translational error = seized, (up is just not there)
in the clouds is figurative = mass multitudes (Paul's Heb12:1 same...comp. the clouds of heaven/cometh WITH clouds)
in the air = synonym for pneuma (spirit), (as Paul explained in 1Cor15)

all the righteous in Christ are seized together,
whether we be dead in the flesh or alive in the flesh at His Coming,
into a great multitude,
in the "mystery" changed heavenly/spiritual incorruptible body that all in heaven have now,
but it's all right here on earth....as the other scriptures about the gathering show.

go to the greek

look, see for yourself:

Matthew 16:27(NKJV)
27For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

He's coming with His angels, not dead people that are in heaven!

are the angels in heaven today? yes
are the angels coming from heaven with Him when He leaves heaven? yes

is the same said of the dead in 1Thes4? yes

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

can we show that men become angels? yes

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

COLOR=purple]now look at this verse which ties to 1thess 4:16:[/COLOR]

Matthew 24:31(NKJV)
31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (see also lk 16:22)

in matt 24:31, heaven refers to the sky above us, the four winds is the clue, which makes this verse in concert with 1thess 4:16-17!

the 4 winds do not represent the sky
they are mentioned multiple times in scripture.

Mar13:29 goes with Mat24:31, and we see the gathering of elect is from both heaven and earth,
that's the same as 1Thes4

so yes, Jesus is bringing the elect with Him to jerusalem, when they meet Him in the sky!

not in the sky...on earth.
He lands first, raises the dead in Christ, and then makes a way to Him
see Zec14

no contradictons allowed

see the greek definitions for the words i outlined in 1Thes4:17 and then compare to Zec14

what you have written here would contradict heb 11:39-40!

No i did not

speaking of the patriarchs of old, the author says:

Hebrews 11:39-40(NKJV)
39And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
40God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

they haven't received the promise of eternal life yet and verse 40 tell us why!

i have no doubt that the patriarchs accept Christ NOW...
after all, Christ went somewhere after His crucifixion/before His resurrection,
and many believed...

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

so, what happened to "the spirits" that heard His preaching in "prison"?

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

plus Christ uses Abraham in His teaching with regards to Lazarus and the rich man (both conscious after death)

no one has received eternal life yet...
but they are still in heaven, in incorruptible spiritual/heavenly bodies, awaiting the Resurrection

it is with those heavenly/spiritual/breath of life from God bodies that they will be "raised" in, not flesh...
and those of us alive at that time, still in flesh, will be changed to be like them, incorruptible....
and at that point, we who are gathered to Christ shall be IMMMORTAL as well as incorruptible
.

further proof:

1 Corinthians 15:50(NKJV)
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

that actually proves my point Bro.
we shall all be changed to be like those he was just describing before that...the quickened dead
no more flesh at His Coming...ALL are changed

but anyway, remember the question in 1Cor15:35?
with what body do they come

Matthew 25:31-34(NKJV)
31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him (not dead people),

see my answer above...
He comes from heaven with the dead in Christ,which is what 1Thes4 is all about
and men can become angels as Rev19/22 teach

at the second coming is when heb 11:39-40 will be fulfilled!

when you continue reading, into Heb12:1, you realize that they (of 11:39-40) are our "cloud of witnesses"
they are the "cloud" that comes with Christ, the clouds of heaven/behold He cometh with clouds

not much room for response on this, just suffice it to say that i don't agree with this assessment.

there's lots of room for YOU to respond.
i have provided umpteen scriptures that show my position as biblical.
it might seem contradictory, sleep/know nothing vs conscious doing things in actual example,
until you realize the point of view each example is given in

if it's about us contacting the dead, then it's the grave/know nothing
it is speaking of their flesh and blood body that has died and turned to dust

if it is showing consciousness after death as many scriptures do, as I have pointed out to you
then it is from the spiritual side of things, and not the earthly.

 

[zeke37]

Zeke37,

Concerning your argument about "bringing with Him" the sleeping saints, I have thoroughly addressed this argument comprehensively in this post here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7679155-2/#post61161076

I'm not persuaded by the SDA viewpoint on this subject
sorry.

 

[zeke37]

divided by a great gulf, the abode of the dead has two sides to it...
the good side where Abraham and Lazarus are, is considered paradise