What does predestination mean?

[MamaZ]

How many verses would you like? Everytime you see the word "Christ" you can read that as "The Anointed." When God anoints someone, that indicates God has chosen the person for a task or office.

But if you want proof, Luke 9:35 says "This is My Son, My Chosen One."

Luke 23:35 says, "He saved others, let Him save Himself, if He is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.

He is annointed because HE IS GOD. Read the OT scriptures Van. Then the NT scriptures will make much more sense to you. All you are doing now is putting your own commentaries on what you believe scripture is saying. Jesus was indeed the Chosen one. Promised and prophecied about from even the book of Genesis.. For why is He the Chosen one? For He is the first born of many.. He is the annointed one.. The Truth the Way and the LIFE.. Why is He this? Is it because He was chosen or is it because He is the Chosen? He is the Christ the Messiah the one Promised?

 

[Van]

I have fully supported the view that Ephesians 1:4 indicates God chose His Redeemer, His Christ before the foundation of the world, and therefore "He chose us in Him" before the foundation of the world, not individually, but as the target group of His redemption plan, for you do not choose a Redeemer unless you plan on redeeming. I have also shown that the view that Ephesians 1:4 refers to our individual election unto salvation before the foundation of the world is precluded by Romans 8:33 and 1 Peter 2:9-10. The rebuttal was to say my view was skewered, and then say help was needed to "see" that Christ is the Chosen One of God. Go figure

 

[MamaZ]

There is not one man that can come to Christ unless the Father draws Him.. So what you are saying is out of line with the whole context of scripture. For you take and pick at scripture like a bird. The whole context of Scripture is so that one can understand Who God and Jesus Christ is. The OT is the foreshadow of the NT. It takes the whole context of Scripture for this. Not eating like a bird but grazing as the sheep we are. Chosen before the foundation of the world for the Purpose of Gods plan and that is to Glorify our mighty and Sovern God.

 

[Van]

Give me a break, what part of "My Chosen One" do you not understand????

Folks, this is how Calvinism is defended, with claims Christ is not the Chosen One of God.

In the OT, we have many many verses, but just read Isaiah 42:1.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Give me a break, what part of "My Chosen One" do you not understand????

Folks, this is how Calvinism is defended, with claims Christ is not the Chosen One of God.

In the OT, we have many many verses, but just read Isaiah 42:1.

I am going to break my rule just for this one.

Going back to the Old Testament, Psalm 105:43, The psalmist called Israel "His chosen ones." God chose Israel.

In the Old Testament, God calls Israel "mine elect" and chose Israel. In the New Testament, God calls Church "mine elect" and chose those whoever responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Van]

I have fully supported the view that Ephesians 1:4 indicates God chose His Redeemer, His Christ before the foundation of the world, and therefore "He chose us in Him" before the foundation of the world, not individually, but as the target group of His redemption plan, for you do not choose a Redeemer unless you plan on redeeming. I have also shown that the view that Ephesians 1:4 refers to our individual election unto salvation before the foundation of the world is precluded by Romans 8:33 and 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Returning to topic, once God puts us spiritually in Christ we are a member of the Church, the body of Christ, the general assembly, saved forever with our name enrolled in the Lamb's book of life. Thus, being conformed to the image of Christ is predestined for everyone "in Christ, being bodily resurrected is predestined for everyone in Christ, and inheriting eternal life as a child of God is predestined for everyone "in Christ." No passage supports the Calvinist fiction that folks are predestined to be placed in Christ.

 

[Van]

Yes, God chooses individuals and groups, e.g His chosen ones, but when scripture refers to the Messiah as His Chosen One, the reference is the Lamb of God, our Lord and Savior, Jesus, God incarnate, chosen before the foundation of the World.

 

[MamaZ]

I have fully supported the view that Ephesians 1:4 indicates God chose His Redeemer, His Christ before the foundation of the world, and therefore "He chose us in Him" before the foundation of the world, not individually, but as the target group of His redemption plan, for you do not choose a Redeemer unless you plan on redeeming. I have also shown that the view that Ephesians 1:4 refers to our individual election unto salvation before the foundation of the world is precluded by Romans 8:33 and 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Returning to topic, once God puts us spiritually in Christ we are a member of the Church, the body of Christ, the general assembly, saved forever with our name enrolled in the Lamb's book of life. Thus, being conformed to the image of Christ is predestined for everyone "in Christ, being bodily resurrected is predestined for everyone in Christ, and inheriting eternal life as a child of God is predestined for everyone "in Christ." No passage supports the Calvinist fiction that folks are predestined to be placed in Christ.

What you have not included is Christs own words. Lets look at them.

Joh 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

Joh 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one."


So this shows us that only Christ sheep hear and follow His voice.

 

[Van]

Yet another total subject change. The topic of this thread is what does predestination mean? But lets go down yet another bunny trail, the false assertion that only "his sheep" referring to folks who have been born again as children of God, can hear and understand the gospel. Matthew 13:20-22 tell us the exact opposite, that folks who have not been born again can hear and understand the gospel and can receive it with joy.

Returning to topic, once God puts us spiritually in Christ we are a member of the Church, the body of Christ, the general assembly, saved forever with our name enrolled in the Lamb's book of life. Thus, being conformed to the image of Christ is predestined for everyone "in Christ, being bodily resurrected is predestined for everyone in Christ, and inheriting eternal life as a child of God is predestined for everyone "in Christ." No passage supports the Calvinist fiction that folks are predestined to be placed in Christ.

 

[Van]

Does scripture say names were entered in the Lamb's book of Life before the foundation of the world? If not, why do you believe we were chosen as individuals before the foundation of the world. Does it not make sense to assume when we were chosen, our name was entered? Sure it does. Therefore Calvinism is demonstrated false by Revelation 17:8, where dwellers on earth have not had there names entered from the foundation of the world. It would say before if Calvinism's mistaken view was correct.

 

[Beasley]

Does scripture say names were entered in the Lamb's book of Life before the foundation of the world? If not, why do you believe we were chosen as individuals before the foundation of the world. Does it not make sense to assume when we were chosen, our name was entered? Sure it does. Therefore Calvinism is demonstrated false by Revelation 17:8, where dwellers on earth have not had there names entered from the foundation of the world. It would say before if Calvinism's mistaken view was correct.

Van:

Just thought I'd throw in this curious Messianic passage.


21They also gave me gall for my food
And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
22May their table before them become a snare;
And when they are in peace, may it become a trap.
23May their eyes grow dim so that they cannot see,
And make their loins shake continually.
24Pour out Your indignation on them,
And may Your burning anger overtake them.
25May their camp be desolate;
May none dwell in their tents.
26For they have persecuted him whom You Yourself have smitten,
And they tell of the pain of those whom You have wounded.
27Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
28May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
29But I am afflicted and in pain;
May Your salvation, O God, set me securely on high.
30I will praise the name of God with song
And magnify Him with thanksgiving.

It seems the ones that crucified Christ started out in the book of life and that Christ is asking that they be blotted out.

Beasley

 

[Beasley]

We are Placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. For this is what Gods word says. For we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

It says:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him

This 'us', does that just mean Paul and the Ephesian believers? or all believers? Maybe it means individually all believers? What do you think?

God chose - aorist tense, regards His action or the event of His choosing (I would think before the foundation of the world)?

Beasley

 

[MamaZ]

Van:

Just thought I'd throw in this curious Messianic passage.


21They also gave me gall for my food
And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
22May their table before them become a snare;
And when they are in peace, may it become a trap.
23May their eyes grow dim so that they cannot see,
And make their loins shake continually.
24Pour out Your indignation on them,
And may Your burning anger overtake them.
25May their camp be desolate;
May none dwell in their tents.
26For they have persecuted him whom You Yourself have smitten,
And they tell of the pain of those whom You have wounded.
27Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
28May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
29But I am afflicted and in pain;
May Your salvation, O God, set me securely on high.
30I will praise the name of God with song
And magnify Him with thanksgiving.

It seems the ones that crucified Christ started out in the book of life and that Christ is asking that they be blotted out.

Beasley

Well lets add that to this..
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
Rom 11:34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
Rom 11:35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
Rom 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.


Now it makes more sense doesn't it.

 

[beloved57]

It seems the ones that crucified Christ started out in the book of life

Theres a book for physical life, one is blotted out that book , meaning end of physical life..

 

[Beasley]

Well lets add that to this..
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
Rom 11:34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
Rom 11:35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
Rom 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.


Now it makes more sense doesn't it.

Yes, it makes sense. The ones that rejected Christ started out recorded in the Book of Life and then were stricken from it when they rejected Him.

Beasley

 

[MamaZ]

Yes, it makes sense. The ones that rejected Christ started out recorded in the Book of Life and then were stricken from it when they rejected Him.

Beasley

LOL

 

[chestertonrules]

Theres a book for physical life, one is blotted out that book , meaning end of physical life..

Pure fabrication.