What does predestination mean?

[Van]

No person was chosen individually unto salvation before the foundation of the world. If they had, then their names would have been entered in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world, but their names were entered from or since the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 2:9-10 indicates we were chosen after we lived without mercy, therefore our individual election unto salvation occurs during our physical lives.

All He chose us in Him means is Christ was chosen as His Redeemer, and therefore we were chosen as the target group of His redemption plan, hence He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him.

 

[MamaZ]

No person was chosen individually unto salvation before the foundation of the world. If they had, then their names would have been entered in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world, but their names were entered from or since the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 2:9-10 indicates we were chosen after we lived without mercy, therefore our individual election unto salvation occurs during our physical lives.

All He chose us in Him means is Christ was chosen as His Redeemer, and therefore we were chosen as the target group of His redemption plan, hence He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him.

Scripture does mean what it says. What you say it means is not what the scripture says. We can either believe what you say or what scripture states.. Where do you see group? You keep saying group and that is not in the scriptures.. For every believer is individually born again with the Spirit of God. So when Paul is saying we:He his writing to the believers in Christ to which one individualy are a living stone in the body of Christ.

 

[Hismessenger]

First let me say that everyone God created is written into the lambs book pf life. The perception is that being in the book is about salvation and it is not. This is borne out by Rev 3:5,

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The names are removed as they fulfill the purpose of God because no matter how you try and twist it to your own understanding, God is in control of every aspect of His creation. Knowing His purpose long before the last life is created.

hismessenger

 

[MamaZ]

Rev 3:1 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Rev 3:2 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.
Rev 3:3 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Rev 3:4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

[Van]

Yes, MamaZ, we can either believe what scripture says, or what Calvinism says.

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world is what scripture says, it does not say group or individual. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once you were not a people, and therefore once we were not a chosen people. But now we are God's people. Once we had not received mercy, but now we have received mercy. Therefore we lived without mercy before we were chosen.

 

[Hismessenger]

He Chose US.................. Seems like more than one to me depending on what your understanding is.

hismessenger

 

[Van]

When He chose Christ as His redeemer, He chose all those who are subsequently redeemed as the target group of His redemption plan, not individually but as a kind of people, those who would trust fully in Christ.

 

[Fremdin]

Quick fix, leave

 

[Van]

Saying a view is stupid is mere name calling, devoid of merit. Posting why a view not in accord with the Word of God, now that has merit. For example 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we lived without mercy before we were chosen. Therefore to believe we were chosen individually before creation creates a paradox, which means the view is unsound.

 

[MamaZ]

When He chose Christ as His redeemer, He chose all those who are subsequently redeemed as the target group of His redemption plan, not individually but as a kind of people, those who would trust fully in Christ.

What you say here cannot be backed by scripture.

 

[MamaZ]

Christ was not chosen as His redeemer. Where do you get this from?

 

[Beasley]

Hi MamaZ:

Just wanted to mention that Eph 1:3-14 is one long sentence, so when considering it, you have to consider it as a whole.

What I am trying to say is that all of it is only 'in Christ' and Eph 1:13-14 define when a person is placed 'in Christ'. It is only after having heard the Gospel, upon the act of believing it simultaneously, the person is sealed in Christ, verses 13-14.

It is at that point the person becomes the subject of all the blessings designed for him 'in Christ'. Those blessings include being chosen to be holy and blameless and being predestined to be adoption. Many think Paul is using the Roman understanding of adoption here, where an adult son or heir was formally appointed. Most of the Roman Ceasars for example were not natural sons, but Ceasar by adoption.

The reason the believer is considered holy and blameless before God is because the new creature in Christ has been created in righteousness and holiness (Eph 4). The old self is considered crucified with Christ, so that the new us is free from the sin nature. (Rom 6) We are no longer enslaved to it and can choose to not sin. As Paul says in Rom 7, it is no longer he who sins (his new self) but the sin (nature) within him. In the meantime the old man, or self nature keeps on being corrupted. In between putting off the old self and living in the new self, is the renewing of the mind, only done by the implanted Word.

Beasley

 

[Van]

When He chose Christ as His redeemer, He chose all those who are subsequently redeemed as the target group of His redemption plan, not individually but as a kind of people, those who would trust fully in Christ.

What you say here cannot be backed by scripture.

If a view cannot be supported by scripture it is without merit. And so any view asserted as biblical should be shown to be what scripture actually says. So lets review?

When was Jesus (the pre-incarnate Word) chosen. 1 Peter 1:20 says Jesus was known before the foundation of the world as the Lamb of God. The pronoun "He" in verse 20 refers to Christ in verse 19. Jesus would not be known as the Christ unless He had been chosen to be the Christ. Therefore, 1 Peter 1:20 supports the idea that Jesus was chosen before creation to be the Lamb of God.

Next, what is the Lamb of God? Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. That is redemption, and therefore Jesus was chosen to be His Redeemer before the foundation of the world.

Next, you do not choose a Redeemer unless your plan is for the redeemer to redeem. So choosing a Redeemer by logical necessity includes choosing a target group to redeem. Hence, He chose us in Him [as the target group of His Redemption plan] before the foundation of the world.

 

[MamaZ]

When was Jesus (the pre-incarnate Word) chosen. 1 Peter 1:20 says Jesus was known before the foundation of the world as the Lamb of God. The pronoun "He" in verse 20 refers to Christ in verse 19. Jesus would not be known as the Christ unless He had been chosen to be the Christ. Therefore, 1 Peter 1:20 supports the idea that Jesus was chosen before creation to be the Lamb of God.

well I believe your commentary on this scripture is skewed. For Christ has always been the second in the Godhead. He wasn't chosen, He is the Alpha and Omega. Nothing was created without Him..

Next, what is the Lamb of God? Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. That is redemption, and therefore Jesus was chosen to be His Redeemer before the foundation of the world.

Once again you commentary on scripture is skewed. The Lamb of God is indeed the very sacrafice of the Godman Himself to take away the sin of the world. This goes clear back to the promise of Abraham. Great read by the way.

Next, you do not choose a Redeemer unless your plan is for the redeemer to redeem. So choosing a Redeemer by logical necessity includes choosing a target group to redeem. Hence, He chose us in Him [as the target group of His Redemption plan] before the foundation of the world.

There is a target but not a group.. For Jesus came to save men from their sin. Not groups of men but man.. No one can be redeemed unless one is born of the Spirit of God and washed in the blood of Jesus.. It is a personal redemption and not a group redemtion. For not all men will be redeemed..

 

[MamaZ]

Hi MamaZ:

Just wanted to mention that Eph 1:3-14 is one long sentence, so when considering it, you have to consider it as a whole.

What I am trying to say is that all of it is only 'in Christ' and Eph 1:13-14 define when a person is placed 'in Christ'. It is only after having heard the Gospel, upon the act of believing it simultaneously, the person is sealed in Christ, verses 13-14.

It is at that point the person becomes the subject of all the blessings designed for him 'in Christ'. Those blessings include being chosen to be holy and blameless and being predestined to be adoption. Many think Paul is using the Roman understanding of adoption here, where an adult son or heir was formally appointed. Most of the Roman Ceasars for example were not natural sons, but Ceasar by adoption.

The reason the believer is considered holy and blameless before God is because the new creature in Christ has been created in righteousness and holiness (Eph 4). The old self is considered crucified with Christ, so that the new us is free from the sin nature. (Rom 6) We are no longer enslaved to it and can choose to not sin. As Paul says in Rom 7, it is no longer he who sins (his new self) but the sin (nature) within him. In the meantime the old man, or self nature keeps on being corrupted. In between putting off the old self and living in the new self, is the renewing of the mind, only done by the implanted Word.

Beasley

We are Placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. For this is what Gods word says. For we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

 

[Van]

But why as a target group, why not as specific foreseen individuals? How do you support that contention?

With two lines of evidence. First 1 Peter 2:9-10 indicates we lived without mercy before we were chosen. Thus our individual election occurs during our physical lives, not before creation.

Second, no charge can be brought against God's elect (Romans 8:33). But all the elect were guilty of sin before being placed in Christ. Therefore our election is when we are spiritually placed in Christ, and that must occur after we have lived as a sinner.

 

[Van]

Come on MamaZ, you are not even trying. I did not say the Word was chosen to be the Word. I said the Word was chosen to be the Christ, the Lamb, the Redeemer. Do you deny that Jesus is the Chosen One? Give me a break.

Jesus came to save "whoever believes in Him."

 

[MamaZ]

Because we are all born in sin. For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Now if you will look to whom Peter is preaching to.. He was sent to the OC people here. They thought they were the People of God because of their heritage and not because of Christ. We see that from the very Gospel. When they kept telling Jesus that they were the children of Abraham. It is only through Christ that anyone can become the Children of Abraham.. We also see in Scripture that we have to have the natural before the Spiritual. But all those whom God has Chosen will indeed come to Christ and be born again. Not at our timing but at Gods. For Gods will be done and not ours.

 

[MamaZ]

Where in scripture do you see that Jesus was Chosen to be the savior? I don't see that.. For Christ is preached to even the serpent in Genesis..

 

[Van]

How many verses would you like? Everytime you see the word "Christ" you can read that as "The Anointed." When God anoints someone, that indicates God has chosen the person for a task or office.

But if you want proof, Luke 9:35 says "This is My Son, My Chosen One."

Luke 23:35 says, "He saved others, let Him save Himself, if He is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.