What does it say? what does it mean?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Reading scripture in an English translation can be quite an ordeal because some translations are very "literal" and some are not.

The very literal translations are said to be "formally equivalent", and those that are not are said to be "functionally equivalent". The former are often hard to understand when the wording is odd. I have an example. It's from the KJV but the NASB carries on the literal tradition so the verse is difficult in the NASB too.

Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. [KJV]​

Psalms 110:3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew. [NASB]​

The same verse in a functionally equivalent English translation looks like this,

Psalms 110:3 On the day you fight your enemies, your people will volunteer. Like the dew of early morning your young men will come to you on the sacred hills. [GNB]​

Psalms 110:3 Royal dignity has been yours from the day of your birth, sacred honour from the womb, from the dawn of your youth. [NJB]​

The passage in its immediate context reads thus, in the KJV

Psalms 110:1-7 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. 5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. 7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.​

and like this in the Geed News Bible,

Psalms 110:1-7 The LORD said to my lord, "Sit here at my right side until I put your enemies under your feet." 2 From Zion the LORD will extend your royal power. "Rule over your enemies," he says. 3 On the day you fight your enemies, your people will volunteer. Like the dew of early morning your young men will come to you on the sacred hills. 4 The LORD made a solemn promise and will not take it back: "You will be a priest forever in the priestly order of Melchizedek." 5 The Lord is at your right side; when he becomes angry, he will defeat kings. 6 He will pass judgment on the nations and fill the battlefield with corpses; he will defeat kings all over the earth. 7 The king will drink from the stream by the road, and strengthened, he will stand victorious.​

As a reader can see, the way to interpret the passage is not as obvious as first appearances suggest.

When we read our English bibles it is worth while for us to consider the extend to which the translation we are reading is influencing what we see. The bible is a complicated and large body of literature. Interpreting it is no easy task.

How do you feel about your own competence to interpret it from your reading of an English translation knowing that each translation can bias what you see?

 

[Philip_B]

To add to the collection

Psalm 110:3 ​

Your people will offer themselves willingly​

on the day you lead your forces​

on the holy mountains.​

From the womb of the morning,​

like dew, your youth will come to you.​

NRSV​

​

Psalm 110:3 ​

Noble are you, from the day of your birth upon the holy hill :​

radiant are you, even from the womb,​

in the morning dew of your youth.​

ASB Psalter​

​

Psalm 110:3
In the day of thy power shall the people offer thee free-will offerings with an holy worship *​

the dew of thy birth is of the womb of the morning.​

BCP/Coverdale Psalter​

​

The Translator/Translation Team are indeed our friend. In terms of choosing a translation, you should look at the heritage of the particular translation, and the reputation of the Team. Most decent modern translations will have a team across several denominations. The task of translation is to present in contemporary language what can best be adduced as the author's intent at the time of writing. Any other meaning is an interpretation, not a translation. If you want interpretation you should look to a commentary.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It's not just a matter of translation. A lot of passages are references to other contents, some of them are intrabiblical, which means a reference from other parts of the bible, the book of Revelation is full of such references; others are extrabiblical, usually about some ancient culture and custom; then there're these prophecies, things that will only take place at God's appointed time, and before it does you and I can only imagine.

Case in point, the passage in Ps. 110 you quoted is titled "Announcement of the Messiah’s Reign", that's what this chapter is about, a prophecy of Christ's everlasting kingdom. This is like code language, if you don't know this reference, no matter how knowledgeable you are in Hebrew and Greek, you'll still be puzzled; if you know the reference, even the wording appears to be odd, you can still get it. For example, "I can only imagine" at the end of the last paragraph is the title of a hit Christian song by MercyMe, if you're familiar with this song, your mind may instantly light up when you read this title, you may even begin to hum its tune; if you've never heard of it, then there's nothing out of ordinary, it's just God's prophecies in general that are hard to imagine, you won't notice it, and you're unlikely to read anything else into it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Translator/Translation Team are indeed our friend.

With some exceptions, I do not think of the New World Translation committee as a friend.

Most decent modern translations will have a team across several denominations.

This may be true of the more recent Protestant translations.

 

[Clare73]

Reading scripture in an English translation can be quite an ordeal because some translations are very "literal" and some are not.

The very literal translations are said to be "formally equivalent", and those that are not are said to be "functionally equivalent". The former are often hard to understand when the wording is odd. I have an example. It's from the KJV but the NASB carries on the literal tradition so the verse is difficult in the NASB too.

Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. [KJV]​

Psalms 110:3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew. [NASB]​

The same verse in a functionally equivalent English translation looks like this,

Psalms 110:3 On the day you fight your enemies, your people will volunteer. Like the dew of early morning your young men will come to you on the sacred hills. [GNB]​

Psalms 110:3 Royal dignity has been yours from the day of your birth, sacred honour from the womb, from the dawn of your youth. [NJB]​

The passage in its immediate context reads thus, in the KJV

Psalms 110:1-7 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. 5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. 7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.​

and like this in the Geed News Bible,

Psalms 110:1-7 The LORD said to my lord, "Sit here at my right side until I put your enemies under your feet." 2 From Zion the LORD will extend your royal power. "Rule over your enemies," he says. 3 On the day you fight your enemies, your people will volunteer. Like the dew of early morning your young men will come to you on the sacred hills. 4 The LORD made a solemn promise and will not take it back: "You will be a priest forever in the priestly order of Melchizedek." 5 The Lord is at your right side; when he becomes angry, he will defeat kings. 6 He will pass judgment on the nations and fill the battlefield with corpses; he will defeat kings all over the earth. 7 The king will drink from the stream by the road, and strengthened, he will stand victorious.​

As a reader can see, the way to interpret the passage is not as obvious as first appearances suggest.

When we read our English bibles it is worth while for us to consider the extend to which the translation we are reading is influencing what we see. The bible is a complicated and large body of literature. Interpreting it is no easy task.

How do you feel about your own competence to interpret it from your reading of an English translation knowing that each translation can bias what you see?

It is NT revelation that is salvific.

All OT revelation must be understood in the light of NT revelation.

 

[BobRyan]

When we read our English bibles it is worth while for us to consider the extend to which the translation we are reading is influencing what we see. The bible is a complicated and large body of literature. Interpreting it is no easy task.

How do you feel about your own competence to interpret it from your reading of an English translation knowing that each translation can bias what you see?

I read from several different translations when the wording appear to be odd or to have somewhat of a vague meaning as written. I also find Bible commentaries to have some helpful suggestions.

The better a given rendering fits with the rest of scripture - the more I favor it. So that means I don't use "one translation for everything" -- because no one translations does "everything best" so far as I have seen.

 

[BobRyan]

With some exceptions, I do not think of the New World Translation committee as a friend.

It it a non-diverse bias group where not only are they inserting their bias but their world view of what the Bible is teaching is simply wrong.

This may be true of the more recent Protestant translations.

I like it when various protestant scholars from different groups - collaborate on one translation because opposing biases tend to get cancelled/reduced by the opposing view and they hold each other accountable for not going beyond what the text states. This checks-and-balances system is far more reliable than the monolithic "we all ran off the cliff together" result that can be had from a single group doing it all.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have always found the differences between Hebrew and Greek to be quite interesting. Greek, like German, possesses strict grammatical rules and can be translated relatively easier than Hebrew. Thus, one finds fewer and smaller differences in the New Testament between translations than in the Old Testament, as shown in the variety of verses posted thus far in this thread.

Hebrew is a much simpler language with an enormous flexibility to it. Whoever decided to introduce diacritical marks into Hebrew did a noble service to translators and interpreters (assuming that the diacritical marks are part and parcel with the inspired text). The result with the Old Testament is a relatively large divergence in some verses between various translations. Thus, it is really helpful to the non-Hebrew reader to consult a variety of translations in an attempt to reach a clear understanding of a passage.

On another note, Arabic is even more flexible than Hebrew. Thus, it is a sin worthy of death to translate the Q'ran into any other language. When one encounters what appears to be a translation of the Q'ran into another language, one ought to look closely and discover that it is not branded as a translation at all, but as an "interpretation". Thus, Muslims can accuse infidels of failing to understand anything about Islam because they don't know the first thing about Arabic, much less the Q'ran. Oddly, the vast majority of Muslims themselves either are completely illiterate in Arabic or, at best, semi-literate, and are totally dependent on their local imam for understanding.

 

[BobRyan]

On another note, Arabic is even more flexible than Hebrew. Thus, it is a sin worthy of death to translate the Q'ran into any other language.

That must be a joke.

Some languages - like Hebrew are "high context" languages where the same word has a great many meanings depending on context.
By comparison to that -- English and German are not "high context".

But all of it gets translated.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The quran may be holy to Muslims but it is not so for Christians.

 

[Dan Perez]

Reading scripture in an English translation can be quite an ordeal because some translations are very "literal" and some are not.

The very literal translations are said to be "formally equivalent", and those that are not are said to be "functionally equivalent". The former are often hard to understand when the wording is odd. I have an example. It's from the KJV but the NASB carries on the literal tradition so the verse is difficult in the NASB too.

Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. [KJV]​

Psalms 110:3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew. [NASB]​

The same verse in a functionally equivalent English translation looks like this,

Psalms 110:3 On the day you fight your enemies, your people will volunteer. Like the dew of early morning your young men will come to you on the sacred hills. [GNB]​

Psalms 110:3 Royal dignity has been yours from the day of your birth, sacred honour from the womb, from the dawn of your youth. [NJB]​

The passage in its immediate context reads thus, in the KJV

Psalms 110:1-7 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. 5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. 7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.​

and like this in the Geed News Bible,

Psalms 110:1-7 The LORD said to my lord, "Sit here at my right side until I put your enemies under your feet." 2 From Zion the LORD will extend your royal power. "Rule over your enemies," he says. 3 On the day you fight your enemies, your people will volunteer. Like the dew of early morning your young men will come to you on the sacred hills. 4 The LORD made a solemn promise and will not take it back: "You will be a priest forever in the priestly order of Melchizedek." 5 The Lord is at your right side; when he becomes angry, he will defeat kings. 6 He will pass judgment on the nations and fill the battlefield with corpses; he will defeat kings all over the earth. 7 The king will drink from the stream by the road, and strengthened, he will stand victorious.​

As a reader can see, the way to interpret the passage is not as obvious as first appearances suggest.

When we read our English bibles it is worth while for us to consider the extend to which the translation we are reading is influencing what we see. The bible is a complicated and large body of literature. Interpreting it is no easy task.

How do you feel about your own competence to interpret it from your reading of an English translation knowing that each translation can bias what you see?

This is what one persons says what Psa 110:3 means From the womb on the morning , thou hast ( or shall be ) the dew of thy youth , thy young men shall be born to thee as dew is born in the Morning .

dan p

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This is what one persons says what Psa 110:3 means From the womb on the morning , thou hast ( or shall be ) the dew of thy youth , thy young men shall be born to thee as dew is born in the Morning .

dan p

You mean it means what the Good News Bible says?

Like the dew of early morning your young men will come to you on the sacred hills. [GNB]​

 

[bbbbbbb]

That must be a joke.

Some languages - like Hebrew are "high context" languages where the same word has a great many meanings depending on context.
By comparison to that -- English and German are not "high context".

But all of it gets translated.

This is not a joke in the least. To attempt to translate the Q'Ran into another language is considered to be a form of blasphemy for which stoning to death is considered to be proper punishment. Allah, in Islam, speaks Arabic only and His word, the Q'Ran can only be read and understood in Arabic.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The quran may be holy to Muslims but it is not so for Christians.

This is true, but Christians in Islamic countries take extreme precautions to avoid provoking their Islamic authorities. This is just one example - https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...406f8a-4003-11ee-9677-53cc50eb3f77_story.html

 

[JosephZ]

it is a sin worthy of death to translate the Q'ran into any other language.

This is not a joke in the least. To attempt to translate the Q'Ran into another language is considered to be a form of blasphemy for which stoning to death is considered to be proper punishment.

This isn't true. The Qur'an has been translated to many European, African, and Asian languages.

When one encounters what appears to be a translation of the Q'ran into another language, one ought to look closely and discover that it is not branded as a translation at all, but as an "interpretation".

I have a copy of two of the more popular English translations of the Qur'an here at my desk, and both use the word "translation".

 

[bbbbbbb]

This isn't true. The Qur'an has been translated to many European, African, and Asian languages.


I have a copy of two of the more popular English translations of the Qur'an here at my desk, and both use the word "translation".

View attachment 335027

Within Sunni Islam this is not considered to be a translation. It is considered to be an "interpretation". Those who have undertaken these efforts obviously conflate translation with interpretation. The reality is that, at best, such translations do not convey anything like the varied structures and nuances to be found in the Arabic. For example, the concept of Jihad is far more than merely slaughtering infidels. Prominent Sunni imams have determined that its primary meaning relates to the inner spiritual warfare that goes in with the heart of a believer.

This is a means of keeping a lid on a Pandora's box. An accurate translation from Arabic would require far more explanatory footnotes than the text itself. Another example would be the sister of Moses, Miriam, who is said, in the Q'ran, to also be the mother of Jesus Christ. On the face of it, this is utter nonsense. Without understanding Arabic, the Q'Ran is a minefield of bizarre notions. Even though you possess a "translation" you will never comprehend the richness of the text if you only read this.

 

[JosephZ]

Within Sunni Islam this is not considered to be a translation. It is considered to be an "interpretation".

If this is the case, why would the Sunni government of Saudi Arabia endorse a Sunni publisher to publish an English translation of the Qur'an using Yusuf Ali's version and use the word translation on it's cover and refer to it as a translation on it's inner pages?

 

[bbbbbbb]

If this is the case, why would the Sunni government of Saudi Arabia endorse a Sunni publisher to publish an English translation of the Qur'an by Yusuf Ali using the word translation on it's cover and refer to it as a translation on it's inner pages?

View attachment 335058

View attachment 335063

That is an excellent question. I do not know the answer to it. On my copy of the Q'Ran which was given to me by a Turkish Sunni Muslim, the cover clearly stated that was an interpretation, and my friend went to great length to explain to me why it could never be a translation.

It may be that there are differences of opinion today regarding the issue of translation. To my knowledge, in the traditional Islamic countries the Q'Ran is read and studied in Arabic even though the national language may not be Arabic.

You may find this helpful - Quran translations - Wikipedia

 

[Philip_B]

My understanding is that this was promoted and backed by a progressive Royal Family seeking to make the basic understanding of Islam available to a wider public with an aim to extend Islamic Evangelism. This was not wholly loved and endorsed, and the Quran is ultimately the Arabic version and any commentary of expounding on the Quran must be based on the Arabic.

 

[bbbbbbb]

My understanding is that this was promoted and backed by a progressive Royal Family seeking to make the basic understanding of Islam available to a wider public with an aim to extend Islamic Evangelism. This was not wholly loved and endorsed, and the Quran is ultimately the Arabic version and any commentary of expounding on the Quran must be based on the Arabic.

Thank you. One of the obstacles with Islam has been the intransigence regarding Arabic being the only language of Allah.