What are specific differences among Methodist denominations?

Duvduv

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As a non-Christian with a hobby of an interest in the history of religions, I find some explanations of the differences among Christian denominations hard to understand. I am basically aware of mergers and separations in the Wesley movement over the past 150 years, but is there more than unites denominations than divides them? In this case, what are the most significant similarities and differences among UMC, Nazarenes and Wesleyans that would make merger impossible (or possible)? Is it mainly theological, ideological, organizational? Thanks.
 

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As a non-Christian with a hobby of an interest in the history of religions, I find some explanations of the differences among Christian denominations hard to understand. I am basically aware of mergers and separations in the Wesley movement over the past 150 years, but is there more than unites denominations than divides them? In this case, what are the most significant similarities and differences among UMC, Nazarenes and Wesleyans that would make merger impossible (or possible)? Is it mainly theological, ideological, organizational? Thanks.

Sadly, a lot of the divisions which are found in denominations seem to have more to do with opinions and preferences than with core beliefs. Given that there are so many varied expressions of faith in God, it is not hard to see that over time, organized groups might find themselves viewing another group as difficult to relate to, or even outlaw. This is not a recent problem. According to the Christian Scriptures Acts of the Apostles, from the early beginning of Christianity, there was difficulty between the Jewish Messianic Believers and the Gentile Converts over how much of the Torah Law was to be required. And the Apostle Paul reports that in the Christian congregations of Corinth, there were groups which divided over the styles of their admired leaders. But then, as now, the solution was and is a dedicated effort by individuals to find unity of purpose and complementary encouragement among diverse perspectives. Paul found members of the Circumcision who would work with him, because they placed New Life in the Messiah as higher priority than individual particular regulations.

I recently participated in a Joint Christian Service held at a United Methodist Church, which had several speakers from various denominations. No one required that my text be examined for orthodoxy, but it was also understood that my message would be framed to speak to our commonly held values, for encouragement of the whole assembly.

I recently studied a book on Francis Asbury and his work of Methodism in the United States, and it seems to me that the division between US Methodism and Episcopal was mostly political in nature, based on Independence of the Colonies from England, and also the inability to get ordained clergy in the colonies, and the varied responses of the members (ordain or not ordain). In our area (NE. Penna), there are several UMC and usually a Primitive Methodist Church in each little neighborhood. Among the UMC I have visited, the tone of the group varied greatly from conservative, to evangelical, to liberal. Most of the pastors I got to know and encourage to whatever degree we could find common ground, hopefully following the command of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that we love one another.
 
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hedrick

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In the UK the difference was emphasis. The Methodists wanted to do evangelism among lower classes, and also mentor and support them, in ways that the Episcopal church wasn't doing.

Similarly, in the US the Methodists were active on the frontier in ways that Episcopal wasn't.

We saw the same kinds of divisions within the Presbyterian family.

In some sense the division is still there, with evangelical churches doing better at reaching the masses than any of the mainline churches.

There were also theological and practical differences. One of the Methodist pastors can probably speak better to them.
 
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rockytopva

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Would there be something like a chart of comparison on key areas of similarity and difference between today's UMC, Wesleyan Church and Nazarene? And are the differences today so great that the three couldn't get together?

The revivals of the Methodist church are in parallel to the Old Testament book of Judges. Only instead of generations that would serve God in Judges, we have periods of what is known as revivals. I belong to the Pentecostal Holiness church. We use to have services identical to the old Methodist church services at Cripple Creek in Wythe County 100 years before us. And to describe these services....

Camp Meeting in Virginia around the old, Methodist Episcopal Church South mourners bench! Dear to me is this chapter of the book because I experienced so much of the wonderful things the author talks about in this work! The Life of George Clark Rankin and beginning on page 239...

I passed my examinations and that year I was sent to the Wytheville Station and Circuit. That was adjoining my former charge. We reached the old parsonage on the pike just out of Wytheville as Rev. B. W. S. Bishop moved out. Charley Bishop was then a little tow-headed boy. He is now the learned Regent of Southwestern University. The parsonage was an old two-and-a-half-story structure with nine rooms and it looked a little like Hawthorne's house with the seven gables. It was the lonesomest-looking old house I ever saw. There was no one there to meet us, for we had not notified anybody of the time we would arrive.

Think of taking a young bride to that sort of a mansion! But she was brave and showed no sign of disappointment. That first night we felt like two whortleberries in a Virginia tobacco wagonbed. We had room and to spare, but it was scantily furnished with specimens as antique as those in Noah's ark. But in a week or so we were invited out to spend the day with a good family, and when we went back we found the doors fastened just as we had left them, but when we entered a bedroom was elegantly furnished with everything modern and the parlor was in fine shape. The ladies had been there and done the work. How much does the preacher owe to the good women of the Church!

The circuit was a large one, comprising seventeen appointments. They were practically scattered all over the county. I preached every other day, and never less than twice and generally three times on Sunday.

I had associated with me that year a young collegemate, Rev. W. B. Stradley. He was a bright, popular fellow, and we managed to give Wytheville regular Sunday preaching. Stradley became a great preacher and died a few years ago while pastor of Trinity Church, Atlanta, Georgia. We were true yokefellows and did a great work on that charge, held fine revivals and had large ingatherings.

The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher.

One morning in the beginning of the service he was to preach and he called the people to prayer. He prayed loud and long and told the Lord just what sort of a meeting we were expecting and really exhorted the people as to their conduct on the grounds. Among other things, he said we wanted no horse- trading and then related that just before kneeling he had seen a man just outside the encampment looking into the mouth of a horse and he made such a peculiar sound as he described the incident that I lifted up my head to look at him, and he was holding his mouth open with his hands just as the man had done in looking into the horse's mouth! But he was a man of power and wrought well for the Church and for humanity.

The rarest character I ever met in my life I met at that campmeeting in the person of Rev. Robert Sheffy, known as "Bob" Sheffy. He was recognized all over Southwest Virginia as the most eccentric preacher of that country. He was a local preacher; crude, illiterate, queer and the oddest specimen known among preachers. But he was saintly in his life, devout in his experience and a man of unbounded faith. He wandered hither and thither over that section attending meetings, holding revivals and living among the people. He was great in prayer, and Cripple Creek campground was not complete without "Bob" Sheffy. They wanted him there to pray and work in the altar.

He was wonderful with penitents. And he was great in following up the sermon with his exhortations and appeals. He would sometimes spend nearly the whole night in the straw with mourners; and now and then if the meeting lagged he would go out on the mountain and spend the entire night in prayer, and the next morning he would come rushing into the service with his face all aglow shouting at the top of his voice. And then the meeting always broke loose with a floodtide.

He could say the oddest things, hold the most unique interviews with God, break forth in the most unexpected spasms of praise, use the homeliest illustrations, do the funniest things and go through with the most grotesque performances of any man born of woman.

It was just "Bob" Sheffy, and nobody thought anything of what he did and said, except to let him have his own way and do exactly as he pleased. In anybody else it would not have been tolerated for a moment. In fact, he acted more like a crazy man than otherwise, but he was wonderful in a meeting. He would stir the people, crowd the mourner's bench with crying penitents and have genuine conversions by the score. I doubt if any man in all that conference has as many souls to his credit in the Lamb's Book of Life as old "Bob" Sheffy.

At the close of that year in casting up my accounts I found that I had received three hundred and ninety dollars for my year's work, and the most of this had been contributed in everything except money. It required about the amount of cash contributed to pay my associate and the Presiding Elder. I got the chickens, the eggs, the butter, the ribs and backbones, the corn, the meat, and the Presiding Elder and Brother Stradley had helped us to eat our part of the quarterage. Well, we kept open house and had a royal time, even if we did not get much ready cash. We lived and had money enough to get a good suit of clothes and to pay our way to conference. What more does a young Methodist preacher need or want? We were satisfied and happy, and these experiences are not to be counted as unimportant assets in the life and work of a Methodist circuit rider. - The Life of George Clark Rankin

AJLlDp1S9aR8qiniZXfs_xKohNYsNlCpQZRDB5-lpA=s900-mo-c-c0xffffffff-rj-k-no

Rev Robert S Sheffey
 
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Maid Marie

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Would there be something like a chart of comparison on key areas of similarity and difference between today's UMC, Wesleyan Church and Nazarene? And are the differences today so great that the three couldn't get together?
Between the Nazarenes and the Wesleyans the primary reason would be organizational. They have their colleges and we have ours, they have their ways of doing things and we have ours. It would be a chore to reorganize everything and right now, there is not really a major desire amongst the churches to make this change. But when I go to friends' Wesleyan churches, I see no difference in the ways that they conduct a service and how we conduct one.

Between Nazarenes and the UMC there is more of a difference. The Church of the Nazarene was started by a former Methodist pastor who was influenced by the American Holiness Movement. The UMC style of worship is still somewhat influenced by the style of worship from the Anglican/Episcopal Church while the Church of the Nazarene tends to be influenced by Baptist worship styles. One example of this would be in preaching styles. Sermons in the Nazarene church on average are at least 30 minutes in length, and use more emotional methods to move the congregation to make spiritual decisions right now [and at times, IMHO and experience this could lend to spiritual manipulation] while sermons in the UMC tend to be a lot shorter in length and will emphasize spiritual nurture over the time of one's spiritual journey. To merger, there would be the organizational changes but also worship changes.

But in many ways, we do work together. In my theological training for ordination, some of my texts were written by Methodists. We studied John Wesley and his way of preaching the Holiness of God in believers [and not just how the American Holiness Movement stressed this]. I can go to the conference this year with the Wesleyan/Holiness Women Clergy Conference in Estes Park, CO next week [if I had had the money and time to go]. There are other such organizations out there such as the Wesleyan Holiness Digital Library.

If I wasn't Nazarene, I would be UMC because I like a more formal worship service [plus, I enjoyed my cousins' UM churches when I was a kid].
 
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rockytopva

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In exploring John Wesley Methodism we find that they could live very well off very little. John Wesley once said, “When a man dies they ought to have enough to bury him and a few pence for his friends.” In 1731, at age 28, Wesley began to limit his expenses so that he would have more money for giving. As his wealth grew Wesley was found living at his same living expenses and he gave away all his extra income to the poor.

Wesley's diet consisted mainly of potatoes, partly to improve his health but also to save money. He said: “What I save from my own meat will feed another that else would have none.” His diet and travels kept him healthy on up into his mid-80’s.

In 1744 Wesley had written, "When I die if I leave behind me ten pounds… you and all mankind may bear witness against me, that I have lived and died a thief and a robber." When he died in 1791, the only money mentioned in his will was the miscellaneous coins to be found in his pockets and dresser drawers. What had happened to the rest of his money? He had given it away. The Wesleyan way is to live in faith with no fear of our provisions

There are movements, such as the Salvation Army and Nazarene, who sought to return to Wesleyan roots. And especially in Charity. If I could have a chat with the leaders of my denomination, Pentecostal Holiness, I would tell them, "You know I really do think that we need to return to our Wesleyan roots."
 
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Maid Marie

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Maid Marie, does it mean that today there really is nothing significant to separate the Nazarenes from Weslyans and it's a waste of resources to maintain separate churches if they have most things in common?
Correct, there is nothing significant separating us. Some would say that we could do more if we banded together with the Wesleyans. But after each attempt to explore this idea, it is determined that merging would be too difficult/costly and so it doesn't happen.

Edited to add: It is not like we are fighting with each other. We just have different beginnings and haven't reached the point yet where it is deemed as necessary. The Wesleyan Church used to be two separate denominations that had broken off of the early Methodist church [Wesleyan Methodist and Pilgrim Holiness]. These two denominations, in 1968, decided that they were better together than separate and so they became The Wesleyan Church. The Church of the Nazarene's founder had also broken away from the early Methodist church [the Methodist Episcopal] in the 1800s but while we merged with other holiness groups, we just never merged with the Pilgrim Holiness nor the Wesleyan Methodist.
 
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JCFantasy23

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Sermons in the Nazarene church on average are at least 30 minutes in length, and use more emotional methods to move the congregation to make spiritual decisions right now [and at times, IMHO and experience this could lend to spiritual manipulation] while sermons in the UMC tend to be a lot shorter in length and will emphasize spiritual nurture over the time of one's spiritual journey.

Could you expand on this?
 
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Maid Marie

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Could you expand on this?
Thinking of the sermons I grew up with and will still hear in my Nazarene church vs what I heard from my cousins' UM churches - in a Nazarene church, you'll hear lots more sermons that press you to make a spiritual decision NOW [have an "altar call"]. Some preachers can get carried away with this type of emotional preaching. Meanwhile, from what I have experienced and heard from others, the Methodist sermon is shorter and engage the intellect more, with less persuasion to make spiritual decisions. It's not so bad now, but I grew up with a lot of guilt trips from the pulpit by Nazarene preachers.
 
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JCFantasy23

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Thinking of the sermons I grew up with and will still hear in my Nazarene church vs what I heard from my cousins' UM churches - in a Nazarene church, you'll hear lots more sermons that press you to make a spiritual decision NOW [have an "altar call"]. Some preachers can get carried away with this type of emotional preaching. Meanwhile, from what I have experienced and heard from others, the Methodist sermon is shorter and engage the intellect more, with less persuasion to make spiritual decisions. It's not so bad now, but I grew up with a lot of guilt trips from the pulpit by Nazarene preachers.

Ah, I see now. Interesting. I've only been to UM churches so I was curious.
 
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rockytopva

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John Wesley admits that revival comes defects...

Wesley’s journal from Jan. 1, 1739: “About sixty of our brethren until three in the morning, the power of God came mightily on us, insomuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground.” John Wesley prayed, “"Lord send us revival without its defects but if this is not possible, send revival, defects and all.”"

I would say that the Wesleyan's do not worry as much as doctrine or church unity as much as they do Christian character. If the Christlike character is with us all is good and well. Even if our group may be small.
 
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Dave-W

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Maid Marie, does it mean that today there really is nothing significant to separate the Nazarenes from Weslyans and it's a waste of resources to maintain separate churches if they have most things in common?
Not much in doctrine or practice, and on the doctrine side the Free Methodists could be included as well. My dad was ordained in the Wesleyan church, and was raised Free Methodist. He preferred the more independent structure of the Wesleyans rather than the bishops and hierarchy in the FM.

That said, he occasionally spoke of an ongoing merger discussion between the FM and the Nazarenes started in the early 1900s that kept getting hung up on the issue of church government, independent vs hierarchy.
 
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rockytopva

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I don't believe John Wesley willed the denomination. Here in a letter to Francis Asbury he chastises Asbury for such activity....

LONDON
September 20, 1788


My Dear Brother:

There is, indeed, a wide difference between the relation wherein you stand to the Americans and the relation wherein I stand to all the Methodists. You are the elder brother of the American Methodists: I am under God the father of the whole family. Therefore I naturally care for you all in a manner no other persons can do. Therefore I in a measure provide for you all; for the supplies which Dr. Coke provides for you, he could not provide were it not for me, were it not that I not only permit him to collect but also support him in so doing.

But in one point, my dear brother, I am a little afraid both the Doctor and you differ from me. I study to be little: you study to be great. I creep; you strut along. I found a school: you a college! [Cokesbury College.] nay, and call it after your own names! 0 beware, do not seek to be something! Let me be nothing, and "Christ be all in all!"

One instance of this, of your greatness, has given me great concern. How can you, how dare you suffer yourself to be called Bishop? I shudder, I start at the very thought! Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me Bishop! For my sake, for God's sake, for Christ's sake put a full end to this! Let the Presbyterians do what they please, but let the Methodists know their calling better.

Thus, my dear Franky, I have told you all that is in my heart. And let this, when I am no more seen, bear witness how sincerely I am Your affectionate friend and brother,

John Wesley
 
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As a non-Christian with a hobby of an interest in the history of religions, I find some explanations of the differences among Christian denominations hard to understand. I am basically aware of mergers and separations in the Wesley movement over the past 150 years, but is there more than unites denominations than divides them? In this case, what are the most significant similarities and differences among UMC, Nazarenes and Wesleyans that would make merger impossible (or possible)? Is it mainly theological, ideological, organizational? Thanks.
I suspect you'll find a spectrum of beliefs in each church. I'm not a United Methodist because I believe in their doctrine. I'm a United Methodist because I was raised in the United Methodist Church, have pledged to be loyal to it, and love my congregation.
 
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