What about these men?

[EmSw]

EmSw, you say "Total Ability". To my knowledge - - according to Calvinist belief, "T" does not mean "Total Ability", but Total Depravity. And "Total Depravity" can be tailored to mean what it does not mean, so people can criticize TULIP people. What I have read in a Calvinist writing did not match with how certain people have represented Calvinists to mean by "Total Depravity".

I am sorry, I meant Total Inability. Yes, I agree, Total Depravity can be tailored to mean what it does not mean, and Calvinist will tell you it does not mean total depravity. Most will tell you it means inability.

So, I suppose "Preservation of the elect" can be misunderstood and misrepresented. If we disagree with something, I understand that God wants us to correctly represent what people believe while disagreeing with them.

The P in TULIP is the basis of 'once saved, always saved'. This is not misrepresenting them.

So, have you given your understanding of "Preservation", along with an actual quote of the official Calvinist representation of it? Or, have you been disagreeing with third-party representations?

Here is part of an article by John Piper, a well known Calvinist:

It follows from what we saw in the last section that the people of God will persevere to the end and not be lost. The foreknown are predestined, the predestined are called, the called are justified, and the justified are glorified (Romans 8:30). No one is lost from this group. To belong to this people is to be eternally secure. http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-we-believe-about-the-five-points-of-calvinism

Speaking for myself, I do not personally know John Calvin so I could really know what he meant by what he has spoken or written. People writing history and interpretations could be not understanding him correctly, for all I know. So, I see what I get through prayer and the Bible, but knowing I am not perfect at prayer and receiving how God has me understanding things. So, I will simply offer what I have.

Do you think Calvinists could perhaps not know what John Calvin meant in his writings?

Because of man's weaknesses, we are told to ask, seek, and knock. But, many Calvinists will tell you no one seeks after God.

I think "total dependence" is more like it >

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:5)

I agree, total dependence and reliance upon God is absolutely necessary.

From this, I see that we humans do not have any ability of our own selves to wish or will or do or get anything really right. So, we are totally dependent on God and His grace which is the action of His own love effecting our nature and behavior and lives. No being less than God can produce all that is really right and of real love, and no being less than God is capable of oneself even wishing this, really and honestly. But God in us works what is right, for both willing and doing >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Here is a part you left out from Philippians 2 -
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

His good pleasure is for us to obey and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. This is what God works in us.

Even before Adam and Eve fell, while they still were perfect as creatures, it was not their nature to be and stay how God's love is. Only Jesus ever was meant to be the first truly perfect Human on this earth. We all have never had a chance.

This I see from reading the Bible and from how well I have seen humans getting themselves to even wish to be perfect in love; in any case, I have seen my own failure.

From your words, I take you believe no infant is saved; as you said, they never had a chance.

James says this in his first chapter -
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Hopefully you can see the process of the birth of sin in a person. There exists temptation, drawing away, conception, and finally birth. So I do not believe in original sin as most Reformed believers do. Each man has his own original sin for which he is guilty. Ezekiel 18 should clear all this up, but man believes as he freely chooses, even if it's against God's word.

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

No where does God say man bears the guilt of his father, no where! Man is totally responsible for HIS OWN sin! Yet, some want to deny this truth of God, and want to condemn every man, woman, and child because of Adam. Hopefully, this isn't your stance also.

Now, is this what Calvinists mean by "T"? I can't speak for people I don't even know personally. But this to me means how I need to constantly and fully rely on God, at every moment submitting to Him . . . but how He in me has me succeeding in this, with no self-propulsion, at all!

As I said, we are to fully rely upon God. If you have no 'self-propulsion', (no drive and or motivation) at all, it will not get done. As I mentioned above we are to obey and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Without any propulsion or drive, we will not do it. We are lazy if we do not do this. And remember what Jesus said about the slothful and lazy servant.

About "P"erseverance of the saints > Em, you seem to say that if a person leaves Calvinism, this means the person has not persevered the way Calvinists believe the elect will persevere. Well, I consider that mainstream Calvinists might understand that a person who doesn't persevere either was not truly saved, in the first place, or the person is elect but change of beliefs, alone, would not mean the person has quit, but only changed in one's ideas. But I'll bet not all Calvinists, themselves, have the same ideas about this So, I would let each person speak for oneself, and not assume that certain people speak for everyone, only because they claim that all believe what they do.

I would prefer a Calvinist to answer this, but remember, a prominent Calvinist said Calvinism was the gospel. Of course, some Calvinist would say he was lying. Anyway, you leave Calvinism, you leave the gospel.

I understand that if a person truly trusts in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12), this person will persevere. So, if one is not of God, the person could for a while think he or she is, or be pretending on purpose. And if the person becomes a Christian while understanding Calvinist people's teachings, the person could grow to learn more and better which is in the Bible, then leave behind any Calvinist items which do not match with how the person discovers the Bible.

You have put the onus upon the person (IF a person truly trusts). Perseverance is the outcome of one who truly trusts, and not someone who sits back and does nothing, that is, lazy and slothful.

Ones, by the way, can put on quite the drama that they are sincere. If you have ever watched a movie, perhaps you know how an actor can have you experiencing the actor to be someone who that actor is not, at all. So, you being convinced by how someone acts . . . or writes . . . means how much??

To answer your question, how do I know if you aren't an actor? How much do your words mean? Should I dismiss your words?

The Bible says there are people who have left because they never were children of God, in the first place > 1 John 2:19. But does this mean only changing from certain beliefs of a group? I think it means leaving Jesus Christ after making some indication of being a Christian. It is saying ones who leave God's people were never with Christ, really, in the first place, I consider > 1 John 2:19.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

If you read any of the links I gave, you will see most of them were not under the category of 'never were children of God'. Most rejected and disavowed themselves from the teachings of Calvinism. They found truths for themselves elsewhere.

If a person is "joined" spiritually to Jesus Himself, I understand the power of this union is almighty so the person can not get away from Jesus. And in this union, the power of the Holy Spirit wins out over how the person's own nature is, so that the person changes to become obedient and therefore incapable of disobeying God to the point of totally getting away from Him. But the person is not perfectly like Jesus, right away. We grow in God's love; but our union with Him Himself got us started, at the time we trusted in Jesus.

This is getting away from the topic in the OP. We are talking of those who left Calvinism for truth elsewhere. If a person joined to the Lord can find truth elsewhere, what did they see wrong with Calvinism?

So, Biblical persevering of God's people means we keep on getting more of God's correction (Hebrews 12:4-11) of His love's perfection (1 John 4:17). And if we sin, we can get very homesick, very quickly; because sinning degrades us from Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30) which we are experiencing and appreciate so dearly and deeply. So, perseverance includes how we are growing in God's own love with His own Heavenly goodness in us > Romans 5:5. I do not know if John Calvin says anything about this, or if TULIP people do. But I find this in the Bible and my personal experience

Did those who left Calvinism, find more of God's correction and more of love's perfection elsewhere?

Thank you for your response com7.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes, I agree, Total Depravity can be tailored to mean what it does not mean, and Calvinist will tell you it does not mean total depravity. Most will tell you it means inability.

I can see that because of total depravity, there is total inability.

The P in TULIP is the basis of 'once saved, always saved'. This is not misrepresenting them.

I believe in staying saved, if God has begun this process, but I do not know how each Calvinist might apply this in one's life. It does not mean a guaranteed ticket no matter how one sins. Because part of our destiny is God succeeds in changing us to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:2), and 1 John 4:17 says we have been perfected in His love so that "as He is, so are we in this world." So, the destiny includes how God succeeds in all He means by this. I do not know how each Calvinist talks about and is experiencing becoming "as He is" "in this world" or not; so I can't speak for ones I don't know personally, or for John Calvin and how he was becoming as a person. So, I concentrate my attention on the Bible and praying for God's correction (Hebrews 12:4-11) and His love's perfection (1 John 4:17, Philippians 2:14-16).

Do you think Calvinists could perhaps not know what John Calvin meant in his writings?

If people fail to understand the Bible, I suppose ones can misunderstand their own religious leaders. How well do people understand their own spouses?? lololololololololololololol

Here is a part you left out from Philippians 2 -

Thank you for the reminder; I am aware and appreciative of how our Apostle Paul told the Philippians that they had become more obedient in Paul's absence, than in his presence, and he says to make sure they work out their salvation "with fear and trembling". But then he says "it is God who works in you", which to me means it is thanks purely to God that they have become motivated and so successful. God "gives the increase", which I understand includes the increase in obedience and the energy thereof > 1 Corinthians 3:6-7.

His good pleasure is for us to obey and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. This is what God works in us.

Our own human nature is not naturally submissive to God; so I see our need for God to work us to will and do all He desires, the way He Himself is able to understand His word.

Each man has his own original sin for which he is guilty.

yes

As I mentioned above we are to obey and work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

yes

I would prefer a Calvinist to answer this, but remember, a prominent Calvinist said Calvinism was the gospel. Of course, some Calvinist would say he was lying. Anyway, you leave Calvinism, you leave the gospel.

Well, I don't have time to investigate each Calvinist . . . who can speak for oneself.

You have put the onus upon the person (IF a person truly trusts). Perseverance is the outcome of one who truly trusts, and not someone who sits back and does nothing, that is, lazy and slothful.

Paul says "I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily," in Colossians 1:29. So, I understand that the source of the energy is God's Holy Spirit who has Paul working in submission, flowing along with how the Holy Spirit is laboring in and through Paul . . . after He has changed Paul's nature so he can do this.

To answer your question, how do I know if you aren't an actor? How much do your words mean? Should I dismiss your words?

I believe the only way you can know if I am of God is if God has you know this . . . to be able to test reliably > 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

Did those who left Calvinism, find more of God's correction and more of love's perfection elsewhere?

I would need to personally get to know someone and see one's example in real life, or have God personally have me know. Otherwise, I am assuming and maybe deciding wishfully for the sake of what I want to believe.

 

[Skala]

There's tons of people that have "left synergism" so I guess synergism is wrong!

Wow, that one was easy to refute with logic.

Next?

 

[EmSw]

There's tons of people that have "left synergism" so I guess synergism is wrong!

Wow, that one was easy to refute with logic.

Next?

Synergism is based upon man's autonomous free will. Each man decides of himself what he decides to do. This is not the case for Calvinism.

 

[nobdysfool]

How can a man who is a slave to sin, bound in sin, have an "autonomous free will"? "Free will" has become this sacrosanct "article of faith" among synergists, magnifying it to nearly equal status with God Himself. Some even go so far as to say that God limits Himself so that man can choose unimpeded, which is baloney, given his sinful condition. I find no evidence of that in Scripture when taken as a whole. There are verses which can be cherry-picked and appear to support it, but not when taken with all other scriptures. But most synergists tend to view Scripture as a large collection of stand-alone verses that each contain an fully-formed theological concept. They will deny it, but one only has to look at how they use them to see the truth of that claim.

 

[Albion]

Synergism is based upon man's autonomous free will. Each man decides of himself what he decides to do. This is not the case for Calvinism.

Skala's point is valid, however. You seem to be saying that anyone who is a "Calvinist" and then leaves his Calvinist church is somehow disproving TULIP. This doesn't disprove it. And the reason it doesn't is because membership in or allegiance to a Reformed church does not mean that you are yourself predestined, etc. All it means is that you subscribed to that brand of theology. Then you changed your mind and may still either be predestined or not. There's nothing more to it than this.

 

[EmSw]

How can a man who is a slave to sin, bound in sin, have an "autonomous free will"?

Man's free will does not come from sin, therefore, sin is not master to the will of man. By the gift of free will, man is able to choose between doing good or doing evil. Sin is the result of man's free will and not its creator. If man does not desire to be a slave to sin, he can freely choose to cast it away, flee from it, put off the old man, and cleanse himself.

"Free will" has become this sacrosanct "article of faith" among synergists, magnifying it to nearly equal status with God Himself. Some even go so far as to say that God limits Himself so that man can choose unimpeded, which is baloney, given his sinful condition.

It is by your autonomous free will that you freely choose to antagonize those who believe in free will.

I find no evidence of that in Scripture when taken as a whole. There are verses which can be cherry-picked and appear to support it, but not when taken with all other scriptures. But most synergists tend to view Scripture as a large collection of stand-alone verses that each contain an fully-formed theological concept. They will deny it, but one only has to look at how they use them to see the truth of that claim.

Do you not have your pet verses to support your views also?

 

[EmSw]

Skala's point is valid, however. You seem to be saying that anyone who is a "Calvinist" and then leaves his Calvinist church is somehow disproving TULIP. This doesn't disprove it. And the reason it doesn't is because membership in or allegiance to a Reformed church does not mean that you are yourself predestined, etc. All it means is that you subscribed to that brand of theology. Then you changed your mind and may still either be predestined or not. There's nothing more to it than this.

I'm not saying that, those who leave say that themselves. They freely reject TULIP and most have found the truth elsewhere.

 

[Albion]

I'm not saying that, those who leave say that themselves. They freely reject TULIP and most have found the truth elsewhere.

So, what's your point in all of this? People change churches all the time and in every denomination.

As I read your words in the OP...

What is my intention in writing this? It is to see how the Reformed deal with those who leave Calvinist. It is my belief that either Total Ability (T) or Preservation of the elect (P) in TULIP is compromised.

...it appears that you are saying that the fact of some people leaving does somehow disprove the beliefs of the church being left behind, yet now you reply that this is not what you're saying.

 

[EmSw]

So, what's your point in all of this? People change churches all the time and in every denomination.

As I read your words in the OP...

...it appears that you are saying that the fact of some people leaving does somehow disprove the beliefs of the church being left behind, yet now you reply that this is not what you're saying.

Are you sure you aren't a closet Calvinist? Do you believe God predestined some to heaven and foreordained some to hell?

 

[Albion]

Are you sure you aren't a closet Calvinist? Do you believe God predestined some to heaven and foreordained some to hell?

Try answering my question and addressing what I wrote in post 89, so that we all can understand what the point of this thread is supposed to be.

...it appears that you are saying that the fact of some people leaving does somehow disprove the beliefs of the church being left behind, yet now you reply that this is not what you're saying.

 

[Skala]

Synergism is based upon man's autonomous free will. Each man decides of himself what he decides to do. This is not the case for Calvinism.

That's nice.

Calvinism is based on God's autonomous free will.

 

[Skala]

Are you sure you aren't a closet Calvinist? Do you believe God predestined some to heaven and foreordained some to hell?

If that is your understanding of Calvinism, it is horrifically shallow and misses the point entirely. No wonder you hate Calvinism so much.

Please be corrected:

Calvinism has little to do with "predestination" or "foreordination". Seriously, you are way too caught up on those topics. In Calvinism, those things are of little importance. They are a sidenote.

In Calvinism, the important doctrines are that man is headed to hell by default because of his sin, and is helpless in sin, and God steps in and mercifully rescues billions of them by the effective atonement of the Son, rather than letting all of them perish to hell justly for their sins.

You are so hung up on "predestination" that you can't even see past that and look at the deeper, more important doctrines, such as regeneration and why it is necessary. Do you even know why Calvinists are monergists? Do you even understand why they think regeneration is mandatory for a person to have faith? DO you even understand a Calvinists view of sin and man's state of being fallen in Adam which is why monergistic regeneration is so important?

The answer to these questions is "NOPE!!"

You just see that word "predestination" and you FREAK OUT! RAWR!! GASP! PREDESTINATION IS HORRIBLE! LETS MAKE EVERY THREAD ABOUT PREDESTINATION!

The rest of Calvinism? Nah let's not give it the time of day, understand it correctly, or even represent it accurately.

Let's just make tons of strawmen posts and mislead hundreds of visitors to the CF forums! We want to demonize Calvinism so badly so that any newcomers seeking for the truth will be immediately turned off and never investigate further!

 

[nobdysfool]

Man's free will does not come from sin, therefore, sin is not master to the will of man. By the gift of free will, man is able to choose between doing good or doing evil. Sin is the result of man's free will and not its creator.

And yet, man's ability to choose is deeply affected by sin. Romans 1:18ff is clear about that. Sin does not have to have creative power in order to affect the will, surely that should be obvious. The will is drawn by temptation, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life. Man may have the power to resist, but he has no desire to resist. And the will is, in nearly all cases, directed by desire. We have a built in, hard-wired instinct to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

If man does not desire to be a slave to sin, he can freely choose to cast it away, flee from it, put off the old man, and cleanse himself.

If that were the case, statistically there would be a percentage of men who have done just that, and, in effect, saved themselves, and don't need Christ. How many men have done so? Surely you know, since you constantly claim that man can choose to clean himself up, and make himself pleasing to God. Who are they? Anyone you know?

It is by your autonomous free will that you freely choose to antagonize those who believe in free will.

Not trying to antagonize, trying to turn on the light. If it antagonizes you, think how Calvinists feel when you antagonize them with all of your blather. Doesn't feel good, does it? All it does is sidetrack and derail threads, which I'm beginning to think is actually the motivation for such actions.

Accusing me of antagonizing "free willies" is a new low. You can't answer and prove your contention of "autonomous free will", so you then claim that you are being antagonized for it. Do you need a "safe place" to curl up in the fetal position, suck your thumb, and cry to get over the shock?

Do you not have your pet verses to support your views also?

Not "pet verses", just the Truth of Scriptures, and passages that are kept in context and show the theology. Very few verses stand alone. The only one I can think of right now is the shortest verse in the bible: John 11:35 Jesus wept.

.

 

[EmSw]

Try answering my question and addressing what I wrote in post 89, so that we all can understand what the point of this thread is supposed to be.

Since some think Calvinism is the gospel (and if not, then someone is lying in Calvinism), those who leave, are leaving the gospel.

 

[EmSw]

If that is your understanding of Calvinism, it is horrifically shallow and misses the point entirely. No wonder you hate Calvinism so much.

Really Skala? Predestination has an important role in all 5 points of Calvinism. Maybe you misunderstand Calvinism.

Please be corrected:

Calvinism has little to do with "predestination" or "foreordination". Seriously, you are way too caught up on those topics. In Calvinism, those things are of little importance. They are a sidenote.

Little to do with 'predestination'? Really Skala? Without predestination, Calvinism falls flat on its face. Maybe you should get caught up more in your doctrines. The reason you believe you are the elect is directly related to predestination. Without predestination, your autonomous free will reigns. Do you really believe predestination has little to do with Calvinism?

In Calvinism, the important doctrines are that man is headed to hell by default because of his sin, and is helpless in sin, and God steps in and mercifully rescues billions of them by the effective atonement of the Son, rather than letting all of them perish to hell justly for their sins.

That sounds Arminian to me. However, adding in predestination to the above, you have Calvinism.

You are so hung up on "predestination" that you can't even see past that and look at the deeper, more important doctrines, such as regeneration and why it is necessary. Do you even know why Calvinists are monergists? Do you even understand why they think regeneration is mandatory for a person to have faith? DO you even understand a Calvinists view of sin and man's state of being fallen in Adam which is why monergistic regeneration is so important?

Does predestination have anything to do with regeneration?

The answer to these questions is "NOPE!!"

You just see that word "predestination" and you FREAK OUT! RAWR!! GASP! PREDESTINATION IS HORRIBLE! LETS MAKE EVERY THREAD ABOUT PREDESTINATION!

As I said before, without predestination, Calvinism is dead! Without predestination, you become a synergist. Without predestination, you freely choose of your own autonomous will. Without predestination, you must assure yourself salvation. Without predestination, you were not chosen before the foundation of the world. Without predestination, God determines your outcome by your actions while you live.

Are you sure predestination, isn't that important to Calvinist?

The rest of Calvinism? Nah let's not give it the time of day, understand it correctly, or even represent it accurately.

Let's just make tons of strawmen posts and mislead hundreds of visitors to the CF forums! We want to demonize Calvinism so badly so that any newcomers seeking for the truth will be immediately turned off and never investigate further!

Okay Skala, which of the following divisions of Calvinism is true, that I may understand and represent it correctly?

1). Total hyper-Calvinism:
2). Partial hyper-Calvinism:
3). Ultra-High Calvinism
4). Regular High Calvinism
5). Moderate Calvinism
6). Lower Moderate Calvinism (may pre-date the confessions)
7). Lower Calvinism
8). Lowest Calvinism
9). Amyraldism (4 point Calvinism)
taken from - https://reformedforhisglory.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/types-of-calvinism-a-comprehensive-list/

Which of the following divisions should a newcomer adhere to? Which division do you follow? Is the division you follow, the one which is telling us the truth?

 

[EmSw]

And yet, man's ability to choose is deeply affected by sin. Romans 1:18ff is clear about that. Sin does not have to have creative power in order to affect the will, surely that should be obvious. The will is drawn by temptation, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life. Man may have the power to resist, but he has no desire to resist. And the will is, in nearly all cases, directed by desire. We have a built in, hard-wired instinct to seek pleasure and avoid pain.

So, if an unregenerate man desires to remain faithful to his wife, and not commit adultery against her, how is this choice affected by sin? What is affecting his will now?

There are many unregenerate people who desire not to steal. How is this affected by sin? What is affecting his will to not steal?

If man has dual natures, who freely decides which nature to obey?

If God truth says, 'cast away all your transgressions and make yourself a new heart and new spirit', which nature chooses not to believe and obey this command?

If that were the case, statistically there would be a percentage of men who have done just that, and, in effect, saved themselves, and don't need Christ. How many men have done so? Surely you know, since you constantly claim that man can choose to clean himself up, and make himself pleasing to God. Who are they? Anyone you know?

I am not claiming a man can choose to clean himself, Mr. Sola Scriptura. The Bible claims that.

James 4:8
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Not trying to antagonize, trying to turn on the light. If it antagonizes you, think how Calvinists feel when you antagonize them with all of your blather. Doesn't feel good, does it? All it does is sidetrack and derail threads, which I'm beginning to think is actually the motivation for such actions.

I am sorry Ezekiel 18:31 is blather to you.

Accusing me of antagonizing "free willies" is a new low. You can't answer and prove your contention of "autonomous free will", so you then claim that you are being antagonized for it. Do you need a "safe place" to curl up in the fetal position, suck your thumb, and cry to get over the shock?

Nah! I'm safe right where I am now, but thanks for the edification.

Not "pet verses", just the Truth of Scriptures, and passages that are kept in context and show the theology. Very few verses stand alone. The only one I can think of right now is the shortest verse in the bible: John 11:35 Jesus wept.

Are you sure Romans 9, Ephesians 1, and John 6 don't contain your pet verses?

 

[nobdysfool]

So, if an unregenerate man desires to remain faithful to his wife, and not commit adultery against her, how is this choice affected by sin? What is affecting his will now?

There are many unregenerate people who desire not to steal. How is this affected by sin? What is affecting his will to not steal?

Perceived pleasure vs perceived pain.

If man has dual natures, who freely decides which nature to obey?

Red herring. Trying to twist the conversation.

If God truth says, 'cast away all your transgressions and make yourself a new heart and new spirit', which nature chooses not to believe and obey this command?

I don't believe you understand that verse in its context.

I am not claiming a man can choose to clean himself, Mr. Sola Scriptura. The Bible claims that.

But you claim you're following Scripture, so you ARE claiming that.

James 4:8

Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Who is James talking to?

I am sorry Ezekiel 18:31 is blather to you.

The way you use it, it is. There's nothing wrong with the Scripture, but you are misusing it.

Nah! I'm safe right where I am now, but thanks for the edification.

Whatever. you missed the point.

Are you sure Romans 9, Ephesians 1, and John 6 don't contain your pet verses?

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I don't rely on "pet verses" like you do.

 

[EmSw]

Perceived pleasure vs perceived pain.

??? Let's try again. You said man's will is deeply affected by sin. Perceived pleasure and pain are not sin.

So, if an unregenerate man desires to remain faithful to his wife, and not commit adultery against her, how is this choice affected by sin? What is affecting his will now?

There are many unregenerate people who desire not to steal. How is this affected by sin? What is affecting his will to not steal?

Red herring. Trying to twist the conversation.

Let's not make excuses, let's answer the question.

If man has dual natures, who decides which nature to obey?

I don't believe you understand that verse in its context.

Oh, I believe I do. I guess you believe God changed His mind regarding sin and a new heart and new spirit.

But you claim you're following Scripture, so you ARE claiming that.

What is wrong with following that verse? Is it a sin to follow God's word? Or, is it a sin not to follow it? This is God's will for mankind; can man go against God's will and do what he desires?

Who is James talking to?

Sinners just like you and me.

The way you use it, it is. There's nothing wrong with the Scripture, but you are misusing it.

Those who misuse it are those who do not obey God's sovereign word.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I don't rely on "pet verses" like you do.

Of course not, NF. I've never seen a Calvinist use any 'pet verses' from Romans 9, Ephesians 1, and John 6.

 

[nobdysfool]

??? Let's try again. You said man's will is deeply affected by sin. Perceived pleasure and pain are not sin.

So, if an unregenerate man desires to remain faithful to his wife, and not commit adultery against her, how is this choice affected by sin? What is affecting his will now?

There are many unregenerate people who desire not to steal. How is this affected by sin? What is affecting his will to not steal?

Sorry the concept was above your head.

Let's not make excuses, let's answer the question.

If man has dual natures, who decides which nature to obey?

Dual natures? What you going on about?

Oh, I believe I do. I guess you believe God changed His mind regarding sin and a new heart and new spirit.

God hasn't changed His mind. But you have this notion that man can do that by himself. Only God can create a new heart.

What is wrong with following that verse? Is it a sin to follow God's word? Or, is it a sin not to follow it? This is God's will for mankind; can man go against God's will and do what he desires?

You seem to think he can. Ultimately, man does what God has fore-ordained, whether man knows it or not.

Sinners just like you and me.

James was talking to Believers, not the sinful world at large.

Those who misuse it are those who do not obey God's sovereign word.

Or, those who think they know something, when they know nothing.

Of course not, NF. I've never seen a Calvinist use any 'pet verses' from Romans 9, Ephesians 1, and John 6.

I'm talking about myself. I am not responsible for what others may do.

Funny how when it's a Calvinist, they are 'pet verses' but when it's you, it the 'Sovereign Word of God'. You clearly hold to a double standard, and your entire agenda is to antagonize Calvinists.