What about these men?

[EmSw]

Sorry the concept was above your head.

Okay, let's try this one more time.

So, if an unregenerate man desires to remain faithful to his wife, and not commit adultery against her, how is this choice affected by sin? What is affecting his will now?

There are many unregenerate people who desire not to steal. How is this affected by sin? What is affecting his will to not steal?

Dual natures? What you going on about?

I thought you believe God gives a believer a new nature., yet, man still has his old nature within him. If you have been freed from sin, why do you still sin? Who decides to sin when you do? Was this foreordained by God? Will you blame God for your sinning?

God hasn't changed His mind. But you have this notion that man can do that by himself. Only God can create a new heart.

Good, now that you believe God hasn't changed, why would you not obey His sovereign word in Ezekiel 18:31? Did God ordain that you do not obey His word?

You seem to think he can. Ultimately, man does what God has fore-ordained, whether man knows it or not.

Of course man can go against God's will. Those who don't obey His word are doing just that.

James was talking to Believers, not the sinful world at large.

So, as a believer, have you cleansed your hands and purified your heart?

Or, those who think they know something, when they know nothing.

I am nothing of myself, but God has given me the common sense to obey His word.

I'm talking about myself. I am not responsible for what others may do.

Are you telling me you never use verses from Romans 9, John 6, and Ephesians 1 to confirm your beliefs?

Funny how when it's a Calvinist, they are 'pet verses' but when it's you, it the 'Sovereign Word of God'. You clearly hold to a double standard, and your entire agenda is to antagonize Calvinists.

I'm sorry you don't believe God's word is sovereign, and must obey it.

When and if, any belief, Calvinist or not, do not hold the word of God as holy, sovereign, and true, and should be obeyed, they should be antagonized by believers for their unbelief.

 

[Albion]

Since some think Calvinism is the gospel (and if not, then someone is lying in Calvinism), those who leave, are leaving the gospel.

They've decided on a different interpretation of parts of the Bible, yes. So what? Their decision to renounce Calvinist views could be either correct or incorrect, just as anyone's decision to change denominations for doctrinal reasons would be. It neither proves nor disproves "Calvinism," however.

 

[EmSw]

They've decided on a different interpretation of parts of the Bible, yes. So what? Their decision to renounce Calvinist views could be either correct or incorrect, just as anyone's decision to change denominations for doctrinal reasons would be. It neither proves nor disproves "Calvinism," however.

Albion, I never said this was to disprove Calvinism.

 

[Patmos]

Really Skala? Predestination has an important role in all 5 points of Calvinism. Maybe you misunderstand Calvinism.

Little to do with 'predestination'? Really Skala? Without predestination, Calvinism falls flat on its face. Maybe you should get caught up more in your doctrines. The reason you believe you are the elect is directly related to predestination. Without predestination, your autonomous free will reigns. Do you really believe predestination has little to do with Calvinism?

That sounds Arminian to me. However, adding in predestination to the above, you have Calvinism.

Does predestination have anything to do with regeneration?

As I said before, without predestination, Calvinism is dead! Without predestination, you become a synergist. Without predestination, you freely choose of your own autonomous will. Without predestination, you must assure yourself salvation. Without predestination, you were not chosen before the foundation of the world. Without predestination, God determines your outcome by your actions while you live.

Are you sure predestination, isn't that important to Calvinist?



Okay Skala, which of the following divisions of Calvinism is true, that I may understand and represent it correctly?

1). Total hyper-Calvinism:
2). Partial hyper-Calvinism:
3). Ultra-High Calvinism
4). Regular High Calvinism
5). Moderate Calvinism
6). Lower Moderate Calvinism (may pre-date the confessions)
7). Lower Calvinism
8). Lowest Calvinism
9). Amyraldism (4 point Calvinism)
taken from - https://reformedforhisglory.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/types-of-calvinism-a-comprehensive-list/

Which of the following divisions should a newcomer adhere to? Which division do you follow? Is the division you follow, the one which is telling us the truth?

I have been scratching my head so much I have a splinter. A Calvinist who denies predestination!

Well, that is a new one on me.

Scratch, Ouch

 

[Albion]

Albion, I never said this was to disprove Calvinism.

You certainly did. You said it right at the top of the Original Post.

"What is my intention in writing this? It is to see how the Reformed deal with those who leave Calvinist. It is my belief that either Total Ability (T) or Preservation of the elect (P) in TULIP is compromised."

and then you clarified it in a later post:

If you don't know why these men didn't persevere, then I can say, perseverance isn't what Calvinism correctly teaches.

and then reasserted it in another post:

Since some think Calvinism is the gospel (and if not, then someone is lying in Calvinism), those who leave, are leaving the gospel.

 

[EmSw]

You certainly did. You said it right at the top of the Original Post.

and then you clarified it in a later post:

and then reasserted it in another post:

I am sure the same thing can be said about Anglican belief, but that is not disprove your beliefs, it only needs clarification.

 

[Skala]

Really Skala? Predestination has an important role in all 5 points of Calvinism. Maybe you misunderstand Calvinism.



Little to do with 'predestination'? Really Skala? Without predestination, Calvinism falls flat on its face. Maybe you should get caught up more in your doctrines. The reason you believe you are the elect is directly related to predestination. Without predestination, your autonomous free will reigns. Do you really believe predestination has little to do with Calvinism?



That sounds Arminian to me. However, adding in predestination to the above, you have Calvinism.



Does predestination have anything to do with regeneration?



As I said before, without predestination, Calvinism is dead! Without predestination, you become a synergist. Without predestination, you freely choose of your own autonomous will. Without predestination, you must assure yourself salvation. Without predestination, you were not chosen before the foundation of the world. Without predestination, God determines your outcome by your actions while you live.

Are you sure predestination, isn't that important to Calvinist?



Okay Skala, which of the following divisions of Calvinism is true, that I may understand and represent it correctly?

1). Total hyper-Calvinism:
2). Partial hyper-Calvinism:
3). Ultra-High Calvinism
4). Regular High Calvinism
5). Moderate Calvinism
6). Lower Moderate Calvinism (may pre-date the confessions)
7). Lower Calvinism
8). Lowest Calvinism
9). Amyraldism (4 point Calvinism)
taken from - https://reformedforhisglory.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/types-of-calvinism-a-comprehensive-list/

Which of the following divisions should a newcomer adhere to? Which division do you follow? Is the division you follow, the one which is telling us the truth?

You typed the word "predestination" 15 times. FIFTEEN TIMES. You're obsessed with it, which is the point I was making all along.

 

[Skala]

Really Skala? Predestination has an important role in all 5 points of Calvinism. Maybe you misunderstand Calvinism."

HAHAHAH?

All 5 points of Calvinism teach predestination? Really?

It is clear that it is YOU who misunderstands Calvinism.

Technically, none of the 5 points teach predestination proper, but I digress.

 

[EmSw]

HAHAHAH?

All 5 points of Calvinism teach predestination? Really?

It is clear that it is YOU who misunderstands Calvinism.

Technically, none of the 5 points teach predestination proper, but I digress.

I didn't say TEACH predestination. But, good try.

 

[EmSw]

You typed the word "predestination" 15 times. FIFTEEN TIMES. You're obsessed with it, which is the point I was making all along.

Enough baloney.

Okay Skala, which of the following divisions of Calvinism is true, that I may understand and represent it correctly?

1). Total hyper-Calvinism:
2). Partial hyper-Calvinism:
3). Ultra-High Calvinism
4). Regular High Calvinism
5). Moderate Calvinism
6). Lower Moderate Calvinism (may pre-date the confessions)
7). Lower Calvinism
8). Lowest Calvinism
9). Amyraldism (4 point Calvinism)
taken from - https://reformedforhisglory.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/types-of-calvinism-a-comprehensive-list/

Which of the following divisions should a newcomer adhere to? Which division do you follow? Is the division you follow, the one which is telling us the truth?

 

[nobdysfool]

Okay, let's try this one more time.

So, if an unregenerate man desires to remain faithful to his wife, and not commit adultery against her, how is this choice affected by sin? What is affecting his will now?

There are many unregenerate people who desire not to steal. How is this affected by sin? What is affecting his will to not steal?

He does not desire to do so at that time.

I thought you believe God gives a believer a new nature., yet, man still has his old nature within him. If you have been freed from sin, why do you still sin? Who decides to sin when you do? Was this foreordained by God? Will you blame God for your sinning?

when you start trying to tell me what I believe, you are straying very wide from where you should be. What you're doing here is badgering, trying to provoke me.

Answer the questions yourself, for and about yourself, and leave me out of it.

Good, now that you believe God hasn't changed, why would you not obey His sovereign word in Ezekiel 18:31? Did God ordain that you do not obey His word?

Who said I didn't follow His Word? I didn't say that, YOU did, falsely accusing me.

Of course man can go against God's will. Those who don't obey His word are doing just that.

No argument on that point.

So, as a believer, have you cleansed your hands and purified your heart?

As a Believer, yes I have.

I am nothing of myself, but God has given me the common sense to obey His word.

Don't break you arm, patting yourself on the back....

Are you telling me you never use verses from Romans 9, John 6, and Ephesians 1 to confirm your beliefs?

Does it bother you that I don't rely on pet verses, like you do?

I'm sorry you don't believe God's word is sovereign, and must obey it.

Bearing false witness against me, because I never said that, by any stretch of the imagination. Why do you feel this need to lie about other people?

When and if, any belief, Calvinist or not, do not hold the word of God as holy, sovereign, and true, and should be obeyed, they should be antagonized by believers for their unbelief.

Where did Jesus say to do that? Chapter and verse, please.

 

[EmSw]

He does not desire to do so at that time.

So, an unregenerate man can have a desire to not sin. I totally agree.

when you start trying to tell me what I believe, you are straying very wide from where you should be. What you're doing here is badgering, trying to provoke me.

Answer the questions yourself, for and about yourself, and leave me out of it.

Again NF, please don't play the victim. Accept God's predestination for your life. If you don't like what life brings you, take it up with the One who determines your life.

Why do you not want to answer the questions? I'm trying to get you to say what you believe, but you seem to not want to reveal your beliefs. So, I will ask again...

I thought you believe God gives a believer a new nature., yet, man still has his old nature within him. If you have been freed from sin, why do you still sin? Who decides to sin when you do? Was this foreordained by God? Will you blame God for your sinning?

Who said I didn't follow His Word? I didn't say that, YOU did, falsely accusing me.

Have you cast away all your iniquities to get yourself a new heart and new spirit? Yes or no will suffice. I would like to hear it from the horse's mouth.

As a Believer, yes I have.

Again, we agree, man does cleanse his hands and purify his heart.

Don't break you arm, patting yourself on the back....

This is uncalled for NF. Reply to the post and not the poster.

Does it bother you that I don't rely on pet verses, like you do?

If you don't rely on pet verses, how do you explain your predestination? Only one writer ever says anything about predestination. Care to provide verses by Jesus which mentions predestination?

Where did Jesus say to do that? Chapter and verse, please.

Where did Jesus say your were predestined? Chapter and verse, please.

 

[nobdysfool]

So, an unregenerate man can have a desire to not sin. I totally agree.

Where we differ is that you think a man does this all by himself in order to please God, Where I see that any choice to do or not do anything is motivated primarily in his desires, and perceived ratio of pleasure to pain. The Christian has the added benefit of a desire to please God because of his renewed mind and spirit. The unsav ed man does not have the desire to please God in any measure worth mentioning, his choices are motivated more as I indicated above.

Again NF, please don't play the victim. Accept God's predestination for your life. If you don't like what life brings you, take it up with the One who determines your life.

I don't base what I believe on predestination, so stop harping on that. It's not playing the victim to point out how you repeated lie about what others say.

Why do you not want to answer the questions? I'm trying to get you to say what you believe, but you seem to not want to reveal your beliefs. So, I will ask again...

I thought you believe God gives a believer a new nature., yet, man still has his old nature within him. If you have been freed from sin, why do you still sin? Who decides to sin when you do? Was this foreordained by God? Will you blame God for your sinning?

Why do you still sin?

Have you cast away all your iniquities to get yourself a new heart and new spirit? Yes or no will suffice. I would like to hear it from the horse's mouth.

Have you? What did you do? How did you do it? Why do you still bear false witness against others here?

Again, we agree, man does cleanse his hands and purify his heart.

I never said other wise. Where we differ is that I did so because I had been saved, and you seem to think that one has to do that in order to be saved.

This is uncalled for NF. Reply to the post and not the poster.

Quit bragging, and it will be a moot point.

If you don't rely on pet verses, how do you explain your predestination? Only one writer ever says anything about predestination. Care to provide verses by Jesus which mentions predestination?

Predestination is not the focus of my beliefs, nor is it what I would preach about. Where do you get this idea from? Earlier you denied that you focused on predestination, and it was pointed out that you mentioned it 15 times in one post. You're obsessed with it. You have this crazy idea that Calvinists all sit around thinking about predestination. Nothing could be further from the truth! If you want people to listen to you, you'd better start listening to others, and not twisting what they say. Knock it off with the constatn questions and claims about predestination, because you clearly do not understand it.

Where did Jesus say your were predestined? Chapter and verse, please.

Nope,. I asked you a question. Either provide what I asked or admit that you cannot. Only after you've done that will I consider answering yours.

 

[EmSw]

Where we differ is that you think a man does this all by himself in order to please God, Where I see that any choice to do or not do anything is motivated primarily in his desires, and perceived ratio of pleasure to pain. The Christian has the added benefit of a desire to please God because of his renewed mind and spirit. The unsav ed man does not have the desire to please God in any measure worth mentioning, his choices are motivated more as I indicated above.

I never said man does this all by himself. Everyone knows right from wrong, good from evil. Did you not know good from evil while an unregenerate? Yes, every man knows by perceived pleasure (reward) and pain (judgment). However, since there is no good in man, from where do you think any good comes?

I don't base what I believe on predestination, so stop harping on that. It's not playing the victim to point out how you repeated lie about what others say.

Predestination controls your whole life. I've never heard a Calvinist put predestination on such a low a priority in their life as you and Skala. I'm beginning to think you see the folly of predestination, and want to remove yourselves from it.

Why do you still sin?

I surely wasn't predestined to sin. I take all the blame without having God involved in any way. Each man sins because he is given the choice to either give in or resist. When I do things on my own, I will always fail. When I look to self instead of God, I will make the choice to please myself.

Have you? What did you do? How did you do it? Why do you still bear false witness against others here?

You can't answer the question? It was a simple question. Have you cast away all your iniquities to make yourself a new heart and new spirit?

I never said other wise. Where we differ is that I did so because I had been saved, and you seem to think that one has to do that in order to be saved.

So you do think a man can cleanse his hands and purify his heart. Wonderful.

Predestination is not the focus of my beliefs, nor is it what I would preach about. Where do you get this idea from? Earlier you denied that you focused on predestination, and it was pointed out that you mentioned it 15 times in one post. You're obsessed with it. You have this crazy idea that Calvinists all sit around thinking about predestination. Nothing could be further from the truth! If you want people to listen to you, you'd better start listening to others, and not twisting what they say. Knock it off with the constatn questions and claims about predestination, because you clearly do not understand it.

I find this quite ironic. Predestination should be your whole life; without predestination, Calvinism is dead. Without predestination, you are not 'elected' from the foundation of the world. Without predestination, you are an autonomous person with absolute free will. Without predestination, you are not regenerated without your knowledge and input.

Why is predestination not something you focus on? Predestination is the foundation of Calvinism. Without this foundation, Calvinism falls on its face. Everything you think, do, and believe is based upon predestination. Maybe it's you who doesn't understand predestination.

 

[nobdysfool]

I never said man does this all by himself.

That's not the way it comes off when you constantly post about how man must do this and man must do that, many of which are things initiated by God, and not man. God renews the heart, not man. God regenerates, not man. God cleanses the heart, not man.

Everyone knows right from wrong, good from evil. Did you not know good from evil while an unregenerate? Yes, every man knows by perceived pleasure (reward) and pain (judgment). However, since there is no good in man, from where do you think any good comes?

Man knows enough to know that there is a God, and He should be worshiped and obeyed, but that alone is not enough to either save him or enable him to do so.

Predestination controls your whole life. I've never heard a Calvinist put predestination on such a low a priority in their life as you and Skala. I'm beginning to think you see the folly of predestination, and want to remove yourselves from it.

Simply not true! Where do you get that idea? There is no folly in predestination, but it is not the center of my life, it is not the basis for my decisions, or my choices. Right here you show just how little you know correctly about something you are so sure is wrong. You don't have enough good information to make that judgment, and you're trying to set yourself up as some sort of authority on Calvinism while gnashing your teeth at it, and boldly making declarations you demonstrably have no clue about. You can claim that until the cows come home, but that does not make it true.

I surely wasn't predestined to sin. I take all the blame without having God involved in any way. Each man sins because he is given the choice to either give in or resist. When I do things on my own, I will always fail. When I look to self instead of God, I will make the choice to please myself.

You don't realize that you're doing so right now.

You can't answer the question? It was a simple question. Have you cast away all your iniquities to make yourself a new heart and new spirit?

I didn't say I couldn't answer the question. I don't answer questions that are replied to with a question, because that is a deflection. This is the lead-up to my questions:

When and if, any belief, Calvinist or not, do not hold the word of God as holy, sovereign, and true, and should be obeyed, they should be antagonized by believers for their unbelief.

and my question:

Where did Jesus say to do that? Chapter and verse, please.

The heart of the question: Where did Jesus ever say that those who don't hold The Word of God as Holy, Sovereign, and True, or simply disagree with someone's interpretation of it, should be ANTAGONIZED for their unbelief? Chapter and verse(s), please.

Until you answer that, I will not answer your question in reply to that.

So you do think a man can cleanse his hands and purify his heart. Wonderful.

He can to a point. But doing so will never rise to a saving level.

I find this quite ironic. Predestination should be your whole life; without predestination, Calvinism is dead. Without predestination, you are not 'elected' from the foundation of the world. Without predestination, you are an autonomous person with absolute free will. Without predestination, you are not regenerated without your knowledge and input.

Why is predestination not something you focus on? Predestination is the foundation of Calvinism. Without this foundation, Calvinism falls on its face. Everything you think, do, and believe is based upon predestination. Maybe it's you who doesn't understand predestination.

Nothing ironic about it, because you are laboring under a delusion of your own making, or it was told to you by someone and you bought it hook, line, and sinker, not knowing any better. Either way, you are not even on the same planet, let alone the same ballpark, regarding predestination. It's no wonder you post the delusional things that you do about it. I'm telling it to you straight up, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!

 

[Patmos]

You typed the word "predestination" 15 times. FIFTEEN TIMES. You're obsessed with it, which is the point I was making all along.

I rather think John Calvin was 'obsessed' rather than EmSw.

The link is a reformed site so please don't falsely claim I am twisting anything.

John Calvin and the Doctrine of Election
www.reformedtheology.ca/calvin.html
The doctrine of predestination is not unique to Calvin. ... many, like Bolsec, who wished that "every mention of predestination be buried"(Inst. III, 21, 3). .... Calvinism assumes that without the intervention of God no one will ever want Christ.

 

[EmSw]

Simply not true! Where do you get that idea? There is no folly in predestination, but it is not the center of my life, it is not the basis for my decisions, or my choices. Right here you show just how little you know correctly about something you are so sure is wrong. You don't have enough good information to make that judgment, and you're trying to set yourself up as some sort of authority on Calvinism while gnashing your teeth at it, and boldly making declarations you demonstrably have no clue about. You can claim that until the cows come home, but that does not make it true.

This shows you know little about predestination. IT IS THE CENTER OF YOUR LIFE! IT IS THE BASIS FOR YOUR CHOICES. If you do not know this, then you don't truly know what predestination is. As Marvin said, God predestines EVERYTHING, down to the smallest detail.

Now, either you don't believe what Marvin said, or you don't know this, or you want to bury your head in the sand.

and my question:

The heart of the question: Where did Jesus ever say that those who don't hold The Word of God as Holy, Sovereign, and True, or simply disagree with someone's interpretation of it, should be ANTAGONIZED for their unbelief? Chapter and verse(s), please.

Until you answer that, I will not answer your question in reply to that.

Matthew 12 -
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

 

[nobdysfool]

This shows you know little about predestination. IT IS THE CENTER OF YOUR LIFE! IT IS THE BASIS FOR YOUR CHOICES. If you do not know this, then you don't truly know what predestination is. As Marvin said, God predestines EVERYTHING, down to the smallest detail.

Now, either you don't believe what Marvin said, or you don't know this, or you want to bury your head in the sand.

Where do you get off saying that predestination is the center of my life??? IT'S NOT!!! WHY DO YOU KEEP PUSHING THIS NONSENSE???

Matthew 12 -
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

Which did not answer my question in any way. Complete and total avoidance.

Here is the original exchange:

When and if, any belief, Calvinist or not, do not hold the word of God as holy, sovereign, and true, and should be obeyed, they should be antagonized by believers for their unbelief.

Where did Jesus say to do that? Chapter and verse, please.

No more avoidance. Answer the question. Or admit that you cannot, because Jesus never said to do anything like that.

 

[EmSw]

Where do you get off saying that predestination is the center of my life??? IT'S NOT!!! WHY DO YOU KEEP PUSHING THIS NONSENSE???

Were you 'elected' by predestination? Were you saved by predestination? Are you a 'Calvinist' by predestination? Were you totally depraved by predestination? Tell me what you do outside of predestination. Please tell me, just one thing you do without predestination.

 

[Patmos]