We had guns thirty, forty, fifty years ago

[AMDG]

and I don't remember having all these serial shootings. Not Colombine. Not one with Gabbie Giffords. Not that shooting in the Holocaust museum. Not with the Jewish children. Not that shooting with the Sikhs. Not the shooting in the theater in Aurora, Colorado. And certainly not with the recent shooting of the children in Connecticut. Why? What have all those recent shooting have in common that the culture didn't have all those other years? Could it be God and morality?

Is our Second Amendment really at fault? AFAIK Connecticut has strict gun control laws. I know that they were surely broken by that mad man. Would gun control be the answer to stopping these horrors from happening? Well, I hear that Norway has really tight gun control laws. Didn't stop their mad man from shooting some ninety some odd children there.

Maybe we should invite God back in our schools and all. I really believe that change for the better starts with us--a change of heart, not just another gun control law.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Yeah places that have stricter gun laws have more shootings, so it is clear that stricter gun laws are not the answer.

 

[LoAmmi]

Maybe we should invite God back in our schools and all. I really believe that change for the better starts with us--a change of heart, not just another gun control law.

How does one do that? What would you suggest would invite G-d back to the schools?

 

[MikeK]

Actually, the guns being sold today are quite different than the guns of 50 years ago. AR-15s which were designed for military use and have magazine capacities if 30 (and sometimes 100) rounds of ammunition, are much better suited to mass shootings than the top selling rifle if 50 years ago, the Model 94 Winchester lever action in 30-30 with a magazine capacity of 5 (and darned hard to reload in a hurry!). Today, centerfire handguns that hold 15 or more rounds of ammunition are common, 50 years ago I can only think of one that was on the market and it was expensive and uncommon (the Brwoning High Power)

In 1934, the Feds restricted a certain type of weapon based on the fact tht they were particularly well suited to commuting crimes against large numbers if victims. The Supreme Court held up the NFA of 1934, so the idea of doing so again is not without legal precedent.

 

[MikeK]

Also, I find the idea that God allowed kindergartners to be murdered because He was irate about prayer not being said in school to be a little...Old Testament. Then there's the St Pious X shooting - and there was plenty if prayer at that school.

 

[LoAmmi]

Also, I find the idea that God allowed kindergartners to be murdered because He was irate about prayer not being said in school to be a little...Old Testament. Then there's the St Pious X shooting - and there was plenty if prayer at that school.

I will point out that in other instances, taken literally, there were plenty of direct warnings given and it wasn't ambiguous. I doubt any Jewish sources would support the idea that this happened because of a lack of prayer in schools and we're the ones who hold to the "Old Testament".

 

[Fantine]

I look at the NRA's statistics as "lies, blankety-blank lies, and statistics."

The statistics I heard on MSNBC today completely refuted your allegations (which I presume came from Fox News).

I also get the Brady e-mails, and they don't recognize your "statistics," either.

But there are other solutions I would advocate for....

For example, when 35 million people don't have health insurance, they don't have much access to mental health care (and Obamacare doesn't go completely into effect until 2014.)

For example, when veterans return from Afghanistan and Iraq with PTSD or traumatic brain injuries from exposure to bombs they may wait 9 or 10 months to get the care they need...and then it may not be adequate.

What happens when children who are emotionally disturbed age out of the school system?

Why are our overcrowded prisons (we have 20% of the world's prisoners and 5% of the population) filled with non-violent offenders--many for marijuana offenses? Why aren't we rehabilitating those who use but don't sell drugs, or who abuse alcohol?

Maybe if we (and of course I exclude myself from that "we" because I would never own a gun) didn't have our guns to "protect" us we would be more serious about treating the mentally ill.

 

[MikeK]

The Brady Campaign and Diane Feinstein are bold-faced liars too, when it comes to the matter of guns and crime. They sell fear, and thy trust that the cowards who they appeal to won't call them on it. Sara Brady and Wayne LaPierre are cut from the same cloth.

There is no excuse for imprisoning as many people as we do.

 

[LoAmmi]

Since I looked into it, I kind of like Israel's gun policy.

You can have a pistol and 50 rounds per year, providing you meet the requirements.

I would extend that to allow a hunting rifle and some fixed amount of ammo for hunting if someone had a hunting license.

Set it so that firing ranges are allowed to stock ammo that people can use on the range.

I see no reason why someone needs to own an assault rifle in the same way I don't see people having a need for a flamethrower, rocket launcher, or tactical nuclear missile.

 

[Spiritlight]

60 years ago it was after a war, maybe everyone was over it all and every day was a horror in the world for a few years.

Everyone went to church too, like it or not..

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Yeah places that have stricter gun laws have more shootings, so it is clear that stricter gun laws are not the answer.

[citation needed]

 

[AMDG]

How does one do that? What would you suggest would invite G-d back to the schools?

Let's see--when both husband and I were growing up, even in public school, we'd start the day with prayer. (Doesn't have to be a denominational one--in one place, I went to a public school in a Jewish neighborhood. Our daily prayer was to the Creator. We asked for His blessings on our parents, our teachers, and on us as we did our schoolwork and in all we did.) The Ten Commandments were recognized as "helping us to live in society" and were not hidden away. Killing, stealing, immorality, lying were no-no's and we never had to wonder if they were okay or not. (We were aware of the different numbering in different religions, but since they were from Judeo-Christian philosphy upon which our laws were based there was no problem. Our teachers also didn't teach that we were simply animals and so people were not allowed to behave like animals--there was right and there was wrong and even teachers were not encouraged to be uncompassionate by allowing bad behavior or treat ourselves poorly and without dignity.

Must have had a positive influence. Back then, talking out of turn and chewing gum were the sort of "crimes" youth might be guilty of and I surely don't remember awful shooting sprees like we have now.

 

[MikeK]

Yeah places that have stricter gun laws have more shootings, so it is clear that stricter gun laws are not the answer.

Restricting firearms by region or type of building simply doesn't work. National bans can be very effective. There are not a lot of fully automatic weapons used in crime today because Federal law passed in 1934 required specialty taxes and registration of same. We could apply the same rules to the weapons most used in, and most suited to, these kinds of mass shootings.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Now I'm not here to start an argument and I don't really want to run down this rabbit hole but:

The last time there was anything like this level of gun violence was in the 1920's to the mid-1930's.

Tommy guns and sawed off shot guns.

Bugs Moran invented the drive by shooting in Chicago.

Bonny and Cylde, Pretty Boy Floyd and Baby Face Nelson.

And what did the 20's and today have in common ?

Really high disparity in incomes between the top 2% or wage earners and the bottom 98%.

There is a close correlation to violence, teen pregnancy and a lot of other social ills with high income disparity.

Pretty much everywhere and across all cultures.

It's a thing

 

[Faith.Man]

and I don't remember having all these serial shootings. Not Colombine. Not one with Gabbie Giffords. Not that shooting in the Holocaust museum. Not with the Jewish children. Not that shooting with the Sikhs. Not the shooting in the theater in Aurora, Colorado. And certainly not with the recent shooting of the children in Connecticut. Why? What have all those recent shooting have in common that the culture didn't have all those other years? Could it be God and morality?

Is our Second Amendment really at fault? AFAIK Connecticut has strict gun control laws. I know that they were surely broken by that mad man. Would gun control be the answer to stopping these horrors from happening? Well, I hear that Norway has really tight gun control laws. Didn't stop their mad man from shooting some ninety some odd children there.

Maybe we should invite God back in our schools and all. I really believe that change for the better starts with us--a change of heart, not just another gun control law.

Excellent point.

 

[Spiritlight]

Yeah places that have stricter gun laws have more shootings, so it is clear that stricter gun laws are not the answer.

Thats very accurate just like the statement "Refreshments will be served in hell along with pardons for nice people"..

 

[LoAmmi]

Let's see--when both husband and I were growing up, even in public school, we'd start the day with prayer. (Doesn't have to be a denominational one--in one place, I went to a public school in a Jewish neighborhood. Our daily prayer was to the Creator. We asked for His blessings on our parents, our teachers, and on us as we did our schoolwork and in all we did.)

What do we do with those that choose not to pray? I'm not sure I would have wanted to do a generic prayer. I would prefer the Shema or something similar.

The Ten Commandments were recognized as "helping us to live in society" and were not hidden away.

Our society has never observed the Sabbath. Ever. That's one of them right off the board. Our society has never discourage coveting. Ever.

Killing, stealing, immorality, lying were no-no's and we never had to wonder if they were okay or not.

Killing, stealing, and lying are still discouraged. "Immorality" is too vague of a term.

Our teachers also didn't teach that we were simply animals and so people were not allowed to behave like animals--there was right and there was wrong and even teachers were not encouraged to be uncompassionate by allowing bad behavior or treat ourselves poorly and without dignity.

We are not taught we are are allowed to behave like animals. I have no idea where you are getting this information from.

Must have had a positive influence. Back then, talking out of turn and chewing gum were the sort of "crimes" youth might be guilty of and I surely don't remember awful shooting sprees like we have now.

Rose-colored glasses. Plenty of children were running wild at all times in history.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Why don't other countries without prayer in school have this mass random shooting problem, then, AMDG? Enlighten us...?

 

[MikeK]

Now I'm not here to start an argument and I don't really want to run down this rabbit hole but:

The last time there was anything like this level of gun violence was in the 1920's to the mid-1930's.

Tommy guns and sawed off shot guns.

Bugs Moran invented the drive by shooting in Chicago.

Bonny and Cylde, Pretty Boy Floyd and Baby Face Nelson.

And what did the 20's and today have in common ?

Really high disparity in incomes between the top 2% or wage earners and the bottom 98%.

There is a close correlation to violence, teen pregnancy and a lot of other social ills with high income disparity.

Pretty much everywhere and across all cultures.

It's a thing

Fun fact: Back then, the NRA was an association for the advancement of the shooting sports, and it supported legislation to ban the weapons those gangsters favored. The NRA also supported the 1964 (iirc) and 1986 Reagan-signed gun bans. Only in the last 3 decades has the NRA decided that there's more money in being a PAC than an advocacy group.

I have every issue of the NRA's official magazine (and it's predecessors) from the 1880s to the 1980s. Believe it or not, the NRA was at one time as noble and honest an organization as you've ever seen. Money ruins everything.

 

[AMDG]

Why don't other countries without prayer in school have this mass random shooting problem, then, AMDG? Enlighten us...?

I mentioned that I heard that Norway has the tightest gun control that there is. I also mentioned that it didn't stop their madman from shooting over ninety children.

And I'm sure that you know that in Switzerland, gun ownership is mandatory and yet they don't have these shootings by madmen. (Sort of makes sense. When the area is "gun free" the people in it are "sitting ducks" for a madman, while if there was a trained and responsible gun owner, the shooter would either "think twice" before going on the rampage or would probably be "taken out" before he could do much harm.

You know that there is a town in Georgia where it has been made mandatory for the town's citizens (with exceptions) to own and maintain guns and the crime rate plummeted. I believe this article mentions it:

Fact NOT Opinion: Gun Control Doesn’t Work