We Cannot Loose Our Salvation

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Let's start dealing with scripture again.

I already posted in this thread the scriptures that show that Jesus' sacrifice for our sins covers our future sins too.

Christ's sacrifice does cover sins, but it does not apply to those who still refuse to obey. There is no universal salvation, if that is what you are claiming.
Let's assume for a moment that what you say is correct. That brings up a whole lot of questions: How do I know that I am saved? How do I know that I am doing all the works required? How do I know that I am not neglecting some important ones? WHat sins will cause me to lose my salvation? How much sin causes me to lose my salvation?

Works does not refer to specific actions a person must perform or not perform in order to be saved. Your questions show that you do not understand this. Works simply refers to being obedient, which is a mindset. Either your goal in life is to please God or it is to please someone else, usually yourself. Obviously we all still sin after becoming Christians, but the difference between Christians and non-Christians is that Christians are people who are concerned with pleasing God, where as non-Christians are not. There is no middle ground. Either you seek to please God or you seek to please yourself. Saying you obey God sometimes when you feel like is the exact same thing as saying you only do what you want to do. You can't be partially obedient to something.
That is not the type of relationship that God wants us to be living: a life not knowing if you are in his family or not. Isn't that a dreadful life to live, not knowing if your parents are going to kick you out of your family or not?

What Jesus did was change our spirits from sinful to pure. We are a new creation in Christ, changed to be like Him. The old is GONE the new is here. We are now no longer sinners, we are saints who sin. Jesus changed our identities and that is not based on any of our merits or perpetual merits, it is based only on his sacrifice and resurrection.

Again you are creating a straw-man argument. There is no uncertainty about your own salvation. Simply examine why you make the choices that you do. Are you doing the things you do because you're trying to please God or because you're trying to please yourself? If you are doing things only when you want to, and you rarely, if ever, ignore your own desires in order to please God, then you're not saved.

Yes, we do become a new creation. We go from a person who seeks to please themselves to a person who seeks to please God. A person who has does not seek to please God has obviously not became a new creation and is not saved.

Also, based on your description, how do you allow for carnal Christians who are still saved? Are there carnal Christians? If you say no, I can pull up a list of scriptures.

Well there are a variety of definitions of "carnal Christian", but a person cannot be both a Christian and live their life seeking to please themselves over God if that's what you're asking. As I mentioned before, there is no middle ground. A person is either obedient or disobedient.
 
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If you have questions about salvation then you have to seek God's answer. Why are you questioning your salvation. There are many scriptures that will give you the word of God. However, the interpretation and application is not totally possible without the Holy Spirit of God's help. I will not post a number of bible versus of comfirmation. Unless you are sure of your salvation then stay in prayer, meditation and study until God confirms your salvation.
Hello PapaJP,
I think you may have misread what I posted. I was not questioning my salvation at all. I am absolutely sure that I am saved. My post was about those who believe that they can lose their salvation: how they live life questioning whether or not they are really saved.

(P.S.---I'm sorry if your post was not directed at me.)
 
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ifightdwagons

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If you have questions about salvation then you have to seek God's answer. Why are you questioning your salvation. There are many scriptures that will give you the word of God. However, the interpretation and application is not totally possible without the Holy Spirit of God's help. I will not post a number of bible versus of comfirmation. Unless you are sure of your salvation then stay in prayer, meditation and study until God confirms your salvation.
Sir if you know you don't have Gods salvation why would you think the Holy Spirit would help you if you prayed? The word says that God doesn't listen to the prayers of sinners, but of the Godly person who does his will.

As for the OP. I am drawn to the verse 'God shows no partiality' and also the warnings in Galatians 3, Hebrews 10, and warnings from Christ about not denying him before men. Churches in revelations for example are threatened by the Lord with blotting their names out of the book of Life if they didn't go back and do the first works (faith changed some). Also your name is not in the book of life if you haven't been redeemed... only those with sin are in the books of works
 
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ifightdwagons

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Christ's sacrifice does cover sins, but it does not apply to those who still refuse to obey. There is no universal salvation, if that is what you are claiming.
Christ sacrifice does cover future sins of course... an example would be when he is washing the disciples feet. 'Though you have to wash your feet, but you are completely clean'. So just because you have to think on the gospel when you fail to fulfill the spirits lust, does not mean that you have gotten dirty, you can say.

I think I said this because it sounded as if we sin in the future we would have somehow acquired sins... but thats not what it says
 
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Sir if you know you don't have Gods salvation why would you think the Holy Spirit would help you if you prayed? The word says that God doesn't listen to the prayers of sinners, but of the Godly person who does his will.

As for the OP. I am drawn to the verse 'God shows no partiality' and also the warnings in Galatians 3, Hebrews 10, and warnings from Christ about not denying him before men. Churches in revelations for example are threatened by the Lord with blotting their names out of the book of Life if they didn't go back and do the first works (faith changed some). Also your name is not in the book of life if you haven't been redeemed... only those with sin are in the books of works

If you deny Jesus before men, he will deny you before his heavenly Father in Heaven.

Does that mean deny salvation? No. There is another verse that is really similar. I can look up the verse if you want me to, but it goes something like this:

"If you deny me (Jesus) before men, I will deny you before my holy angels."

This verse parallels the one that you inferred, and it shows definitely that he is not talking about denying the person salvation. Angels are messengers and they bring judgement, but they also bring blessings. So this verse (and the one about the Father) is saying that if you deny Jesus before men (because you are embarrassed or whatever reason) then Jesus is going to deny you your blessings from heaven. It is not saying that you will lose your salvation.

As far as the book of life...the judgement in Revelation 20 is the judgement of the "dead" not of the "living." Christians are alive in Christ. Everyone else is dead in sin. The judgement in Revelation 20 there are no Christians there. They are all non-Christians and not saved in that passage. God will show them where their name is missing (probably because it is listed alphabetically, and their names are not there.)

God does not blot out the names of Christians who are written in the book of life, and, all Christians are listed in the book of life.
 
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ifightdwagons

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If you deny Jesus before men, he will deny you before his heavenly Father in Heaven.

Does that mean deny salvation? No. There is another verse that is really similar. I can look up the verse if you want me to, but it goes something like this:

"If you deny me (Jesus) before men, I will deny you before my holy angels."

This verse parallels the one that you inferred, and it shows definitely that he is not talking about denying the person salvation. Angels are messengers and they bring judgement, but they also bring blessings. So this verse (and the one about the Father) is saying that if you deny Jesus before men (because you are embarrassed or whatever reason) then Jesus is going to deny you your blessings from heaven. It is not saying that you will lose your salvation.

As far as the book of life...the judgement in Revelation 20 is the judgement of the "dead" not of the "living." Christians are alive in Christ. Everyone else is dead in sin. The judgement in Revelation 20 there are no Christians there. They are all non-Christians and not saved in that passage. God will show them where their name is missing (probably because it is listed alphabetically, and their names are not there.)

God does not blot out the names of Christians who are written in the book of life, and, all Christians are listed in the book of life.
I would ask you if you can support your claims using scripture, because it most definitely does say that he would blot their names out of the book of life
 
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I would ask you if you can support your claims using scripture, because it most definitely does say that he would blot their names out of the book of life
As soon as I read your comment, my first thought was, "That must be the Old Testament." I looked it up and yes, it's just the old testament, which makes sense to me. THe old testament was before Christ, before the day of Grace, and a different dispensation than the New Testament. THe old testament clearly states ways that an Isrealite can lose their Isrealite status by sinning particular sins, such as Exodus 12:19, "...And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Isreal, whether he is an alien or native-born."

So let's look at the 2 verses that says blotting out the book of life. Exodus 32:33, but let's start from verse 31, "So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. But now, please forgive their sin--but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.' The Lord replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book."

They committed apostasy, the ultimate sin of worshipping another god, so this makes sense that they would be blotted out of the book of life. Christians worship God the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and there is no apostasy there. Christians are not blotted out of His book.

The next verse is Psalm 69:28, which is a Messianic verse, so it has a double meaning. David wrote it for his time, but it also has Messianic implications of when they crucified Jesus. But note David is speaking here and it is a prayer.

Other passages within this Psalm shows that it is a Messianic Psalm, such as verse 21, "They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst." And verses 7 through 12 are clearly Messianic, but too long for me to quote.

Starting from verse 26 it reads, "For they persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt. Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation. May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous."

Again this all makes sense to me. It is Old Testament of David's day for the first of the double meaning of this passage. And it is also referring to those who crucified Jesus, which is just before the dispensation of the day of Grace. Those who crucified Jesus are not written in the book of life either.
 
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papaJP

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Sorry if I led any to believe I thought they were questioning their salvation. I must have misread.

However I do have a problem with someone who posted this.

Sir if you know you don't have Gods salvation why would you think the Holy Spirit would help you if you prayed? The word says that God doesn't listen to the prayers of sinners, but of the Godly person who does his will.

I know I am saved and you must have not understood that I was saying that if anyone has a question of their salvation they should seek God through the Holy Spirit and repent and ask to become one of the saved. If you do not believe that anyone can seek salvation then none will be saved. All began life as a sinner by birth and none of us are totally sinless.

What you seem to be saying is no one can be saved because God does not hear their prayers. God wants all to be saved and He is listening to those who cry out to Him asking for salvation if they repent and are truly seeking Him.

I resent anyone who will question my salvation. I have over 20 years of visions. healings, preaching, teaching and prophetic acknowledgements of my status as a chosen and acknowledged son of God.

I will say again that we have the choice and those who say no and do not seek to be like Jesus and walk the walk that God destined for them will be blotted out unless they repent and ask forgiveness and not deny God in any way. This act of repentance does not continue past the first death of the flesh.
I would suggest before you throw stones you look at your own life and where you are.
 
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steve4.truth

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New testament: Rev.3:5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

perhaps we are influenced by the warranties and guarantees in our society. If angels left God, we could too. If our salvation is secure, why is the Bible written to God's people-encouraging us to do what is right? The Bible is not written to unbelievers.
 
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holyorders

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Matthew 18:

7
6 Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!
8
If your hand or foot causes you to sin, 7 cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or crippled than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into eternal fire.
9
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into fiery Gehenna.

This^
 
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ifightdwagons

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Sorry if I led any to believe I thought they were questioning their salvation. I must have misread.

However I do have a problem with someone who posted this.

Sir if you know you don't have Gods salvation why would you think the Holy Spirit would help you if you prayed? The word says that God doesn't listen to the prayers of sinners, but of the Godly person who does his will.

I know I am saved and you must have not understood that I was saying that if anyone has a question of their salvation they should seek God through the Holy Spirit and repent and ask to become one of the saved. If you do not believe that anyone can seek salvation then none will be saved. All began life as a sinner by birth and none of us are totally sinless.

What you seem to be saying is no one can be saved because God does not hear their prayers. God wants all to be saved and He is listening to those who cry out to Him asking for salvation if they repent and are truly seeking Him.

I resent anyone who will question my salvation. I have over 20 years of visions. healings, preaching, teaching and prophetic acknowledgements of my status as a chosen and acknowledged son of God.

I will say again that we have the choice and those who say no and do not seek to be like Jesus and walk the walk that God destined for them will be blotted out unless they repent and ask forgiveness and not deny God in any way. This act of repentance does not continue past the first death of the flesh.
I would suggest before you throw stones you look at your own life and where you are.
Sir, miracles do not mean you're saved. You need to base your faith on the word. I am not doubting you have done these, in fact I have known some and do know some who do this. But that does not mean they have salvation. In fact one of them used to lead people, do prophesy, heal, talk in tongues but they admitted their life of faith was false when confronted with the gospel of the water and the spirit. They were following the sin of jeroboam. They were born again and are happily serving the gospel I am now.

But all I was saying is that you have the holy spirit after being redeemed. And the part where i said he doesn't hear the prayers of sinners was the typical belief as said from the blind man who had his eyes healed. I do believe he desires everybody to be saved yes. But I do not believe even if you love God with all your heart that you will be saved. You have to believe how he wants you too. Which is to believe that you have nothing but weakness, that he took up all your sin at the jordan, and that he paid their wages off through his blood.

Also the saying of asking for forgiveness is unbiblical. It is by faith you are cleansed of sin - not by asking. You cannot cleanse any sin by asking him to cleanse you. You are cleansed once and for all by belief.

If you want to know if you have the Holy Spirit or not, then you should be able to feel the waters flowing from inside of you, from your belly up into your chest and it spreading through your breast.
"Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." Read the next line, this was speaking of the Holy Spirit. This is every personal believers proof of their salvation. Albeit you can quench this if you live how God doesn't want you to.
 
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ifightdwagons

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As soon as I read your comment, my first thought was, "That must be the Old Testament." I looked it up and yes, it's just the old testament, which makes sense to me. THe old testament was before Christ, before the day of Grace, and a different dispensation than the New Testament. THe old testament clearly states ways that an Isrealite can lose their Isrealite status by sinning particular sins, such as Exodus 12:19, "...And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Isreal, whether he is an alien or native-born."

So let's look at the 2 verses that says blotting out the book of life. Exodus 32:33, but let's start from verse 31, "So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. But now, please forgive their sin--but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.' The Lord replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book."

They committed apostasy, the ultimate sin of worshipping another god, so this makes sense that they would be blotted out of the book of life. Christians worship God the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and there is no apostasy there. Christians are not blotted out of His book.

The next verse is Psalm 69:28, which is a Messianic verse, so it has a double meaning. David wrote it for his time, but it also has Messianic implications of when they crucified Jesus. But note David is speaking here and it is a prayer.

Other passages within this Psalm shows that it is a Messianic Psalm, such as verse 21, "They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst." And verses 7 through 12 are clearly Messianic, but too long for me to quote.

Starting from verse 26 it reads, "For they persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt. Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation. May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous."

Again this all makes sense to me. It is Old Testament of David's day for the first of the double meaning of this passage. And it is also referring to those who crucified Jesus, which is just before the dispensation of the day of Grace. Those who crucified Jesus are not written in the book of life either.
I was referring to the ones in the New Testaments in revelations. But why would you think God would change from the Old Testaments to the New Testaments? Solomon fell from grace and is dead now. Judas believed in the Lord but fell away too. I was speaking about the sin leading to death, not that I am going to speak of it to you people. But the thought of OSAS sounds so easy. In fact it's so comforting to think of but it has no biblical standing. I look and look but that doctrine can kill peoples spirits. Maybe they believe in it because they want to comfort their consciences ? I don't know why they do.

In fact after I was born again I believed in OSAS for a little while. I was quickly corrected and it was painful. I got full of pride and kept thinking 'I feel amazing, God loves me no matter what I do, God will understand if I take a break from serving his gospel' but this was all thoughts of me being worldly still. I did get filled with pride because I didn't sin for a couple months, not with my thoughts or actions after being born again. I said "wow my mind is beautiful now, i am finally living how God wants me to" thinking it was by my own actions. But that is not why God loves you, he loves you for your faith. I am not good by my own actions but by believing. So my wrong doing was how I was believing. I could of spiritually died if I decided to be worldly and stop serving the gospel.

God bless you.
 
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New testament: Rev.3:5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

perhaps we are influenced by the warranties and guarantees in our society. If angels left God, we could too. If our salvation is secure, why is the Bible written to God's people-encouraging us to do what is right? The Bible is not written to unbelievers.

God commands us to live holy because He is holy. We are still commanded to live upright and without sin through Christ who helps us to not sin. This command to live uprightly does not have a price tag of our salvation with it. We live justly because we are followers of Jesus and He makes us live justly. He works on us and continually makes us to be more and more like Him.

WHat happens when we disobey? God disciplines us. God can discipline us with the fire of hell if he has to to get us to turn back to him and live rightly. (And that, by the way is my response to the next post). But God does not put Christians in hell for eternity, just this lifetime. God does not kick us out of the family when we do not obey. He only disciplines us. He does not discipline unbelievers because their judgement will come later on.

You cannot compare how God deals with angels to how He deals with us because God never sent His Son to die for angels. God completely deals with us differently.

No one still answered my question: What about carnal Christians? Is there such a thing as a carnal CHristian? Or did they lose their salvation too? THere are plenty of verses in the NT about carnal Christians.

And concerning the New Testament verse you found. That still goes along with what I was saying. This is the Day of Grace, when salvation is free. Before the day of Grace and after the day of Grace salvation is not free like it is in the day of grace. The day of grace is now, when we are to believe in the finished work of the crosss. The day of Wrath is coming one day in the tribulation time. Overcomers are those who in the day of Wrath, overcome the tribulation period and do not accept the mark of the beast. That is about he who overcomes the coming chapters of Revelation, that did not occur yet. In the Day of Grace, which is now, Jesus overcame for us. He says in John 16:33, "...In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." Jesus is saying that that he overcame the world for us. 1 John 5:4 says, "For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith." All Christians in the day of grace are overcomers. This Revelation verse only applies to the Day of Wrath, the tribulation period.
 
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Christ's sacrifice does cover sins, but it does not apply to those who still refuse to obey. There is no universal salvation, if that is what you are claiming.
Not a universal salvation where all are saved, no, that is not what I am claiming. But a salvation that is completely not based on works is what I am claiming.

Obey what, may I ask? Obey going to church? Obey love your neighbor? Obey do not steal? If I break the command do not steal, did I lose my salvation?

Obedience has nothing to do with salvation. THe worse sinner can call upon Jesus as their Lord as they are, but what happens is that when they do that, Jesus will start working on that disobedient person to change them to be like Himself. Eventually through trial or whatever it takes that God sends that person's way, the person will naturally obey. If we would just see that when God saved you, your spirit changed to be like His. Your spirit is now Holy like He is holy. That has nothing to do with what you do. He made us to be Holy like him, so that now when I drop my body and die, I can be joined with Him, for absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That could not happen if I were not made righteous through the cross. My sinful nature would not be able to be in his presence if that were not true. But God changed us and made that nature in our spirit perfect. The body is still dead, but the spirit is alive in Christ JEsus. THe body is filled with sin, but the spirit is alive and holy and will be with him and is holy like him.


Works does not refer to specific actions a person must perform or not perform in order to be saved. Your questions show that you do not understand this. Works simply refers to being obedient, which is a mindset. Either your goal in life is to please God or it is to please someone else, usually yourself. Obviously we all still sin after becoming Christians, but the difference between Christians and non-Christians is that Christians are people who are concerned with pleasing God, where as non-Christians are not. There is no middle ground. Either you seek to please God or you seek to please yourself. Saying you obey God sometimes when you feel like is the exact same thing as saying you only do what you want to do. You can't be partially obedient to something.
Even Paul said, "I do not do what I want to do but the very thing that I do not want to do I do." So does that mean Paul is not saved because he obviously is saying that he is still sinning? ANd with this doctrine here, you might as well keep a list of sins that you commit verses good deeds and see which outweighs the other. I'm just trying to get you to see that the bible does not teach this. SUch is legalism and God wants us to live freely by grace. He does not want us to live keeping track of our sins and worrying whether or not if we are saved.

Again you are creating a straw-man argument. There is no uncertainty about your own salvation. Simply examine why you make the choices that you do. Are you doing the things you do because you're trying to please God or because you're trying to please yourself? If you are doing things only when you want to, and you rarely, if ever, ignore your own desires in order to please God, then you're not saved.
I live for God. I seek to please God always. But my salvation is not predicated on that. It is predicated in believing that Jesus took my place on the Cross for me. It is predicated on believing that God offers a free gift of salvation, and all he wants us to do is to believe in what Jesus did for us. It is predicated on everything what Jesus did, and NOTHING on what I did. With that faith, God changed me from being carnal to upright because he sent trials my way to make me upright. Now that I am upright, He has lifted those trials from me. That is how GOd deals with those who are His. He disciplines them.
Yes, we do become a new creation. We go from a person who seeks to please themselves to a person who seeks to please God. A person who has does not seek to please God has obviously not became a new creation and is not saved.
It is much more than that. He changed our spirits, literally. It is throughout Romans and Galatians. I can go over it, but it would not be a short commentary.

Well there are a variety of definitions of "carnal Christian", but a person cannot be both a Christian and live their life seeking to please themselves over God if that's what you're asking. As I mentioned before, there is no middle ground. A person is either obedient or disobedient.
Then what's a carnal Christian?
 
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Jig

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I know I already touched on this in an earlier post but this topic really bugs me. We are talking about salvation like it is our t.v. remote or car keys. Those you can lose. In fact, I have no idea where my house key is as we speak, it is lost!

We cannot speak of salvation in the same way. How can someone "lose" their salvation. As I see it there can only be two options and one of them is promised never to happen. Someone can take/steal our salvation (but God is clear that this is impossible since no one can pluck us out of His hand) and the other is we can give up our salvation.

We need to be discussing the latter. A better question is: Can we voluntarily give up our gift of salvation?
 
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Matthew 18:

7
6 Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!
8
If your hand or foot causes you to sin, 7 cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or crippled than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into eternal fire.
9
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into fiery Gehenna.

This^
Okay, this....
The best bible interpretation uses the bible to interpret itself. There is a series of things to think about. First we look at the verse and try to interpret what it is saying. Then we look at who's speaking and gauge where they are coming from. Then we look at the passage to see what it is saying in context of the text around it. THen we must look at the context of the book and the author to see whatever themes they have going on. And finally, we must look at other books in the same testament (New or Old) to get the full context of the meaning of the verse in question in relation to other Scripture so that none contradict one another; and, then finally, if we have to, look at the other testament.

So lets use the passage here to interpret this passage.

Looks to me like Jesus is speaking hyperboles. For example, does he really mean that if our foot or hand causes us to sin that we should go out and ax it off? Does he really mean that if we look at something with lust that we should go and pluck out our eyes? Of course not. THat much should be understood in this passage. So since Jesus is speaking hyperboles, that is the nature of this passage.

Within this passage, Jesus says another hyperbole that it is better to enter life maimed. In Corinthians, it says that we will have raised up imperishable bodies for our spiritual bodies in heaven. I don't think that anyone will be maimed in heaven because God is going to give us all perfected bodies in Heaven. God is going to restore those who are crippled in this life and they won't be crippled in the next life. The bible says that our bodies will be like Jesus', and Jesus' body was not maimed.

All non-Christians will go to hell, I know we both agree. ANd the reason they will go to hell is because of their sin. THey did not have their sin taken away via the cross and they died in their sins. There are good non-Christians and there are bad non-Christians. It does not matter either way, both are going to hell. THe way for them to avoid hell is to deal with their sin. The way to deal with our sin is to have faith in Jesus and in his finished work for us. If one does not do that, then the reason they are in hell is because they rejected Christ. Christ is the only way of dealing with sin.

Lastly, God uses the fire of hell to discipline his own as well. That is what I keep referring to as discipline. God uses Satan to discipline his own children and he also uses hell fire to discipline us, but He saved us from an eternity of hell fire through faith and only faith in Christ.

Note the corresponding passage to this one in Matthew 5:29. There it says that he will throw your "physical body" into hell. That is a punishment in time that God uses hell fire to discipline us.
 
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I know I already touched on this in an earlier post but this topic really bugs me. We are talking about salvation like it is our t.v. remote or car keys. Those you can lose. In fact, I have no idea where my house key is as we speak, it is lost!

We cannot speak of salvation in the same way. How can someone "lose" their salvation. As I see it there can only be two options and one of them is promised never to happen. Someone can take/steal our salvation (but God is clear that this is impossible since no one can pluck us out of His hand) and the other is we can give up our salvation.

We need to be discussing the latter. A better question is: Can we voluntarily give up our gift of salvation?
That is what we are talking about. I hope you don't get hung up on semantics. The topic at hand is: Can we forfeit our salvation. I'm testifying that we cannot, with one exception.

The exception is apostasy. If we suddenly become Muslim, or call on another god, then we just forfeited everything that God did for us.
 
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I was referring to the ones in the New Testaments in revelations. But why would you think God would change from the Old Testaments to the New Testaments? Solomon fell from grace and is dead now. Judas believed in the Lord but fell away too. I was speaking about the sin leading to death, not that I am going to speak of it to you people.
I could of spiritually died if I decided to be worldly and stop serving the gospel.

God bless you.

:eek: You mean God didn't change the way of doing things from the Old Testament to the New? I think He did. In the old testament, salvation was only offered and available to the children of Israel. At times others were drafted in, but those were rare occasions. When they were drafted in, they had to live as an Israelite to maintian their status. Today, salvation is offered to everyone through faith. That's a pretty big change. The statement "God does not change" does not apply here. That statement only applies to His character. God is not going to one day become evil or sinful. God's character does not change, but the way he does things do. So therefore, there are several dispensations of how God judges the world. Today we are in the Day of Grace. The day of Wrath, coming up, will be a little bit different.

ANd if you believe in Jesus, then you are alive. Romans 8:10, "But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."

That's who you are. CHristians who believe they can lose their salvation have an identity crisis. They don't know who they are in Christ JEsus. You are alive in Christ!
 
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Michael Snow

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The debate really revolves around how we start reading into those words of Jesus. One camp will say that if the person does not persevere, he was not saved in the first place. The other will say that a person who does not persevere to the end was a Christian when he was perseveriing but gave it up.

From Love, Prayer and Forgiveness: When Basics Become Heresies[/I
from Chapter 4 Sin and Silence, click on my name/my homepage for description of the book and amazon link to

...Too often, we as Christians lack a sense of urgency. We
are too consumed with just existing in a busy world. Unlike
the world’s search and rescue teams, who know that time is
critical for survival, we ignore the seriousness of the situation.
Some of us seem oblivious to the fact that there is a crisis.
One pet theology that re-enforces the lack of urgency
stems from good intentions. But while holding onto some
truths found in the New Testament, it fails to hold onto other
essentials. The holy conjunction is lost. And, thus, it distorts
an historic doctrine—the perseverance of the saints.
Its good intention lies in giving assurance to those who
struggle with their sense of being saved. Today, many seasoned
Christians will tell those who make a profession of
faith (whether by a prayer or by going forward at a church
or crusade) that they have eternal security. A popular slogan
rings out: “Once saved, always saved.”
And other Christians will assure those who have been
baptized and confirmed that they are heaven bound no matter
what may follow. Though many of these converts might
never live by faith, this assurance will again be affirmed at
their funerals.
But a new idea enters here. By leaving out New
Testament essentials, these teachings depart from the historic
Christian faith. This new idea leaves behind the holy
conjunction; it fails to hold essentials together. Faith and
obedience are sundered; forgiveness and repentance divided.
While some differences arise among great saints of the
past, like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Wesley, they
all agreed that we are saved by faith alone through God’s
unmerited grace. On this point, Wesley said of Calvin, “I do
not differ from him an hair’s breadth.”4
So, too, the seasoned Christians mentioned above affirm
this. But where is the difference?
Martin Luther observed that “the world and the masses
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are and always will be unchristian, although they are all baptized
and nominally Christians. Christians, however, are few
and far between . . .”5
Luther pointed to “the divine promise which says: ‘He
that believeth and is baptized shall be saved’ [Mark 16:16].”6
(Note the holy conjunction.) But he also warned, “Unless
faith is present or comes to life in baptism, the ceremony is
of no avail; indeed it is a stumbling-block not only at the
moment we receive baptism but for all our life thereafter.”7
John Calvin affirmed, “Only if we walk in the beauty of
God’s law do we become sure of our adoption as children of
the Father.”8 (What a contrast that is with the assurances
given by those who march under another banner.)
Furthermore, he wrote:
The apostle denies that anyone actually knows
Christ who has not learned to put off the old man,
corrupt with deceitful lusts, and to put on Christ.
External knowledge of Christ is found to be
only a false and dangerous make-believe, however
eloquently and freely lip servants may talk about
the gospel.
The gospel is not a doctrine of the tongue, but
of life.9
The key point here is succinctly summed up by J. I.
Packer: “Scripture holds out no hope of salvation for any
who, whatever their profession of faith, do not seek to turn
from sin to righteousness (1 Cor. 6:9-11; Rev. 21:8).”10
We need to read and hear Jesus’ parable of the sower.
(Christians ought to read and know God’s word.) Here,
Jesus speaks of the different types of soil upon which the
seed of the gospel falls. The seed falls on the footpath, on
shallow, rocky soil, on ground infested with thorns, and on
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good ground (Mat. 13). The hard footpath will not even
grow a plant, but on the shallow, stony soil, the plants spring
up immediately, but because of the shallowness, they have
no deep root and wither away in the sun.
Jesus tells us, “He who received the seed on the stony
places, this is he who hears the word and immediately
receives it with joy, [he may readily run forward at an altar
call] yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a
while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of
the word, immediately he stumbles “ (Mat. 13:20-21).
About the ground with thorns, Jesus says, “He who
received the seed among the thorns is he who hears the
word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of
riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful” (Mat
13:22). The thorns choke out life. (We remember what Jesus
said about dead branches on the vine: they are cut off and
gathered to be burned.)
Here, confusion rushes in when those in this modern,
once-saved-always-saved camp assure these sad cases of
people that they have eternal security. (Just as the evangelical
churches of Joy and Mary did for them.)
Right here lies the critical point of difference between
the historic doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and
this modern notion, which reigns under the banner of “once
saved, always saved.” Both will agree that God’s elect cannot
be lost; but those with this new notion will assure someone,
anyone, who makes an initial profession of faith that
they have eternal security. And their positive assessment
regarding the salvation of these hearers will never change,
not even when the roots shrivel and the thorns choke the life
out. The initial response (profession) rather than the life of
endurance (perseverance) stands as their criteria. (As a
result, they often fail in exhortation, and they often remain
silent, except to assure Christians like Joy and Mary that
they are heaven bound.)
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But Jesus said, “He who endures to the end will be
saved” (Mat. 10:22).
Calvin, one unflinching champion of the perseverance of
the saints, clearly taught this. Expositing this parable of the
sower, he speaks of the “temporary faith” of the one who
receives the word with joy:
They lack a living feeling (affectus) to confirm
them in steadfastness. . . . For unless the Word
penetrates the whole heart and puts down deep
roots there will be no steady flow of moisture to
make faith persevere. . . . let us realize that nothing
is done until faith has gained a firm strength. . . .
these are called ‘temporary’, not only because they
fall away in temptation after being professed disciples
of Christ for a time, but also because they
themselves think that they have a true faith. . . . But
we must know that they are not truly born again of
incorruptible seed, which does not fade away, as
Peter says (1 Pet. 1.4).11
As F. F. Bruce has pointed out, “The perseverance of the
saints is a biblical doctrine, but it is not a doctrine designed
to lull the indifferent into a sense of false security; it means
that perseverance is an essential token of sanctity.”12
That means that if you do not have the essential evidence,
the perseverance, then you do not have the salvation
either. And no faithful servant would affirm to those who are
committing high-handed sin (whether it be pursuing homosexual
unions or divorcing a spouse for unbiblical grounds)
that they have eternal security.
This does not mean that we, as Christians, never stumble.
J. I. Packer writes, “Sometimes the regenerate backslide
and fall into gross sin. But in this they act out of character,
do violence to their own new nature, and make themselves
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deeply miserable so that eventually they seek and find
restoration to righteousness. In retrospect, their lapse seems
to them to have been madness.”13
But we may never know which ones will return and which
ones will continue toward destruction. (Only God knows.)
Only perseverance at the end of the course will reveal it. So,
we give warning and exhortation to return as God commands
us. We listen to his word: “Exhort one another daily . . . lest
any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin”
(Heb. 3:13). We do not banter around vain slogans, but center
our gaze on God’s holy word. There he gives us assurance
when our hearts cry out, “Abba, Father.”
False security flows from much of today’s slack teaching—
the result of slack learning. (Many would be astounded
if they read Calvin’s words which are quoted above.) And in
our slackness we progress to dullness and, in the end, many
are lulled to sleep, listening to the winds of the times.
Not only are the indifferent lulled to sleep, but so, too,
are the would-be search and rescue teams in the churches.
Their sense of urgency evaporates. The rescuers never leave
the headquarters building. They have no sense that the hiker
truly may be lost. Such sin is just a common, everyday
occurrence in a world where the salt has lost its flavor.
Silence surrounds the lost hiker. The mountain of sin
appears deceptively friendly to the one who holds a bogus
ticket for a free ride out of the wilderness on a helicopter
that will never leave base.
Today, in our evangelical circles, hosts of Christians hold
to a distorted, modern version of the perseverance of the
saints. They do so with an admirable motive of giving comfort
and assurance to new Christians, assurance that God is
faithful to his chosen people. He is not fickle. What he says,
he will do; we may count on it. Our salvation depends on his
free, unmerited grace, not on working our way to heaven. We
may be assured that “whosoever will, may come.”
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But in the New Testament (and Old), assurance and
warning go hand in hand. In his first epistle, John assures his
fellow Christians that they can be confident of their salvation:
“Now by this we know we that we know him, if we
keep his commandments.”But, “he who says, ‘I know him‘,
and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth
is not in him” (1 John 2:3, 4).
As J. I. Packer affirms, “Only those who show themselves
to be regenerate by pursuing heart-holiness and true
neighbor-love as they pass through this world are entitled to
believe themselves secure in Christ.14
“The idea that there can be saving faith without
repentance, and that one can be justified by embracing
Christ as Savior while refusing him as Lord, is a destructive
delusion.”15
Today, those Christians, especially leaders, who so
emphasize God’s great grace that they fail to seek out and
warn those Christians who go astray, have blood on their
hands. “But if the watchman sees the sword coming and
does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned,
and the sword comes and takes any person from among
them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will
require at the watchman’s hand” (Ezek. 33:6).
The failure to speak out and warn those who are going
astray flows from a false gospel. Dietrich Bonhoeffer
described it thus:
That is what we mean by cheap grace, the
grace which amounts to the justification of sin
without the justification of the repentant sinner
who departs from sin and from whom sin departs.
Cheap grace is not the kind of forgiveness of sin
which frees us from the toils of sin. Cheap grace
is the grace we bestow on ourselves.
Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness
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without requiring repentance, baptism without
church discipline, Communion without confession,
absolution without personal confession.
Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace
without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living
and incarnate.16
. . . But those who try to use this grace as a
dispensation from following Christ are simply
deceiving themselves.17
 
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papaJP

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That is what we are talking about. I hope you don't get hung up on semantics. The topic at hand is: Can we forfeit our salvation. I'm testifying that we cannot, with one exception.

The exception is apostasy. If we suddenly become Muslim, or call on another god, then we just forfeited everything that God did for us.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You seem to be good at questioning whether someone is truly saved.
What you call apostasy is true. However, the denial of God is another. He said that if you deny Me or My Son you can repent but if you deny the Holy Spirit of God you are lost. This seems to be saying that if you are not filled with and follow the Holy Spirit you have lost your salvation.
By the way I do not have to justify my salvation to you or any. I know God and I am His chosen Son.
 
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